Hadith: Discussion

[SlaveOfGod]

Yes I do. But since this is in the Quran, it is a bit redundant. Now we will need times of prayer, number of raka'ats, when to stand (and what to say), when to bow (and what to say), when to prostrate (and how many times as well as what to say), etc, etc, etc.

Time of Prayer

The times of the prayers were mentioned by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in the hadeeth:

“The time for Zuhr is from when the sun has passed its zenith and a man’s shadow is equal in length to his height, until the time for ‘Asr comes. The time for ‘Asr lasts until the sun turns yellow. The time for Maghrib lasts until the twilight has faded. The time for ‘Isha’ lasts until midnight. The time for Subh (Fajr) prayer lasts from the beginning of the pre-dawn so long as the sun has not yet started to rise. When the sun starts to rise then stop praying, for it rises between the two horns of the Shaytaan.” (Narrated by Muslim, 612).

Is this hadith acceptable to you?

 

[humblemuslim]

Can I just ask: how did Muhammed's followers distinguish from the Hadith and Quran? Did Muhammed say before delivering Quranic verses that he was about to reveal the Quran, and likewise with the Hadith?

You will not often find me quoting Hadith, but this question reminded me of this Hadith:

Now there is only one hadith left, transmitted from Abu Said al-Khudri which reads "Do not write from me anything except the Quran and whoever has written anything from me other than the Quran should erase it"
[Baghdadi, Taqyid, 29-32; al-Hajjaj, Sahih Muslim, Zuhd, 72]

However, even this hadith is disputed amongst the scholars. According to al-Bukhari and others, it is the statement of Abu Said himself, that is erroneously attributed to the Prophet.
[Ibn Hajar, Fath al Bari, i, 208; al-Yamani, al-Anwar al-Kashifah, 43]

But this seems to be a hadith coming from the Prophet, and it actually meant that nothing should be written with the Quran on the same sheet, because this might lead to someone to conclude that sentances or words wirtten in the margin or between lines belonged to the Quran.
[al-Khattabi, Maalim al-Sunan, iv, 184; al-Sanani, taudih al Afkar, ii, 366]

It should be remembered that this order was given in the period when the Quran was being revealed and when the text itself was incpmplete. Otherwise there does not appear to be any sound reason to forbid the writing of hadith.

Source - http://www.muslimtents.com/aminahsworld/Writing_hadith.html

This website has some interesting dialogue.

 

[SlaveOfGod]

You will not often find me quoting Hadith, but this question reminded me of this Hadith:


Source - http://www.muslimtents.com/aminahsworld/Writing_hadith.html

This website has some interesting dialogue.

How do you reconcile this hadith with those hadith where Muhammed (saAllahu alayhi wasalam) told his Companions to write his sayings down?

 

[humblemuslim]

Allah says in the Quran that Muhammed said only what Allah told him to say and dictated and that he spoke not from his desires.

Muhammed (saAllahu alyahwasalm) said in an authentic hadith that he was sent with the Quran and its equal - meaning the Sunnah. You dont believe in hadith so this irrelevant.

This is why the famous classical scholars of the Quran, like Ibn Kathir, said that the Sunnah was revealed just like the Quran was. Once again irrelevant since you dont believe in the opinion of these classical scholars.

Pickthal 53:2-4:
By the Star when it setteth,
Your comrade erreth not, nor is deceived;
Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire.
It is naught save an inspiration that is inspired,





Is this the Ayat you are referring to brother?

We can consider this point, though you realize I am not going to just accept it blindly. If the Sunnah is equal to the Qur'an we should be able to show this is the case. Is their evidence the Sunnah is equal to the Qur'an? A Hadith saying so, like the one you mentioned, is not evidence unless circular reasoning is employed. I hope we can agree upon this.

So it is believed the Hadith are the dictated Words of GOD? This is bothersome since the Hadith are narrated by chains of men as is clearly mentioned throughout the Hadith. This is an essential element of the Hadith.

In the Qur'an GOD uses personal pronouns "WE" "I" "ME" or some sort of equivalents in English terms. Do any of the Hadith do likewise? Is Allah(GOD) quoted in any Hadith?

 

[humblemuslim]

How do you reconcile this hadith with those hadith where Muhammed (saAllahu alayhi wasalam) told his Companions to write his sayings down?

Well I am just quoting what another person has said regarding this Hadith.

This person reconciles this Hadith by arguing the prohibition was either:

1. Limited to the time the Qur'an was being revealed.

OR

2. Limited to not writing Qur'an and Hadith on the same media (Paper/Rock/Palm tree leaf/Hide/Etc.)

Read the website. It is not a site rejecting the Hadith. It is one justifying the Hadith. I mentioned it because it does offer an interesting dialogue regarding the subject.

If you look at the conclusion at the beginning of the last third of this website you will find that the two options I put here are paraphrased versions of what the author concluded.

 

[SlaveOfGod]

Pickthal 53:2-4:
By the Star when it setteth,
Your comrade erreth not, nor is deceived;
Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire.
It is naught save an inspiration that is inspired,





Is this the Ayat you are referring to brother?

We can consider this point, though you realize I am not going to just accept it blindly. If the Sunnah is equal to the Qur'an we should be able to show this is the case. Is their evidence the Sunnah is equal to the Qur'an? A Hadith saying so, like the one you mentioned, is not evidence unless circular reasoning is employed. I hope we can agree upon this.

So it is believed the Hadith are the dictated Words of GOD? This is bothersome since the Hadith are narrated by chains of men as is clearly mentioned throughout the Hadith. This is an essential element of the Hadith.

In the Qur'an GOD uses personal pronouns "WE" "I" "ME" or some sort of equivalents in English terms. Do any of the Hadith do likewise? Is Allah(GOD) quoted in any Hadith?

The Quran you read has been trasnmitted through chains of narrations of men. Do you accept that or not? Or did the Quran get written down in the time of the Prophet in a nicely bound book as you see today?

Personal Pronoun hadith showing Allah being quoted

The Prophet (peace be upon him), who said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) says:

Fasting is Mine and it I who give reward for it. [A man] gives up his sexual passion, his food and his drink for my sake. Fasting is like a shield, and he who fasts has two joys: a joy whin he breaks his fast and a joy when he meets his Lord. The change in the breath of the mouth of him who fasts is better in Allah's estimation than the smell of musk.

al-Bukhari

Spend (on charity), O son of Adam, and I shall spend on you.

al-Bukhari

I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

al-Bukhari
There are many morth ahadith like this

 

[humblemuslim]

The Quran you read has been trasnmitted through chains of narrations of men. Do you accept that or not? Or did the Quran get written down in the time of the Prophet in a nicely bound book as you see today?

Personal Pronoun hadith showing Allah being quoted

The Prophet (peace be upon him), who said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) says:

Fasting is Mine and it I who give reward for it. [A man] gives up his sexual passion, his food and his drink for my sake. Fasting is like a shield, and he who fasts has two joys: a joy whin he breaks his fast and a joy when he meets his Lord. The change in the breath of the mouth of him who fasts is better in Allah's estimation than the smell of musk. al-Bukhari

Spend (on charity), O son of Adam, and I shall spend on you. al-Bukhari

I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed. al-Bukhari
There are many morth ahadith like this

This point is fair to bring forth. The Qur'an has two statements in it that eliminate any doubt regarding this issue:

[56:77] This is an honorable Quran.
[56:78] In a protected book.


The Qur'an is mentioned in several places as being protected/guarded.

[4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

The Qur'an gives us a clear test so that we may realize it is from none other than GOD.

Are the Hadith equally protected?

Are the Hadith free from all contradictions (Internally and externally)?


This is a good start. Thank you for sharing this.

I know the Hadith also on occasional quote the Qur'an.

Just for the benefit of everyone's knowledge here, what others are quoted directly in the Hadith? Just list in specific or general terms who all is quoted directly, or even indirectly that we all may learn more.

 

[SlaveOfGod]

This point is fair to bring forth. The Qur'an has two statements in it that eliminate any doubt regarding this issue:

[56:77] This is an honorable Quran.
[56:78] In a protected book.


The Qur'an is mentioned in several places as being protected/guarded.

[4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

The Qur'an gives us a clear test so that we may realize it is from none other than GOD.

Are the Hadith equally protected?

Are the Hadith free from all contradictions (Internally and externally)?


This is a good start. Thank you for sharing this.

I know the Hadith also on occasional quote the Qur'an.

Just for the benefit of everyone's knowledge here, what others are quoted directly in the Hadith? Just list in specific or general terms who all is quoted directly, or even indirectly that we all may learn more.

Do you accept that the Quran did not exist at the time of the Prophet life?

Do you accept that it was bound in book form decades after he died?

Why do you not accept the chains of transmission of hadith when the Quran itself was transmiited through the chains of men?

 

[SlaveOfGod]

.

 

[humblemuslim]

Do you accept that the Quran did not exist at the time of the Prophet life?

Do you accept that it was bound in book form decades after he died?

Why do you not accept the chains of transmission of hadith when the Quran itself was transmiited through the chains of men?

Brother,

I will simply say I do not know brother. On matters of history, whether specific to Islam or in general, are all matters of conjecture. We must trust those before us. So I do not know for sure, though for the sake of the discussion if you desire a definite answer I will simply say yes to continue the dialogue, though in my heart history is something I consider conjecture and biased based on who has written it.

These historical elements that could cause doubt are removed by the Ayat in the Qur'an. The Qur'an says it is protected. To simply accept this alone would be the same circular reasoning. This alone offers no benefit. The test is where the benefit is. Anyone can read the Qur'an and find that it is consistent through and through with itself and with the universe.

That is why I accept the Qur'an. I would not accept the Qur'an simply because someone who transmitted to me said so. The Qur'an tells us to use our minds and not accept things blindly. So the argument that the two where transmitted in the same fashion does not warrant the two be treated on equal terms. The content of each speak for themselves.

 

[humblemuslim]

I am going to rest brother. I will be traveling on business for the following week.

Have patience and GOD willing we will continue our discussion when I return.

 

[SlaveOfGod]

Brother,

That is why I accept the Qur'an. I would not accept the Qur'an simply because someone who transmitted to me said so. The Qur'an tells us to use our minds and not accept things blindly. So the argument that the two where transmitted in the same fashion does not warrant the two be treated on equal terms. The content of each speak for themselves.

But the Quran you hold so dear in your heart and hand, was transmitted through the tongues of men, just like the hadith were, therefore they have both come from the same source.

You do not accept the hadith because you believe men make things up, or whatever reason but this could have happened to the Quran. Why didnt it, becuase the men who narrated it were trustworthy.

You probably read the Quran from the following chain of transmission but i am sure you didnt know about this chain brother:

Hafs bin Sulaimaan bin Al Mughairah Al Asadee Al Kufee

From

Aasim bin Abee An Najood Al Kufee At Taabi’ee

From

Abee Abdir Rahmaan Abdillah bin Habeeb As Sulamee

From

‘Uthmaan bin ‘Affaan and ‘Alee bin Abee Taalib and Zaid bin Thaabit and ‘Ubai bin Ka’b

From

Prophet

This chain is Hafs recitation, which was narrated from the above people. If you accept the Quran as it is, you have to accept that chains of transmission, whether they are relating hadith or Quran, as an acceptable and trustworthy soruce.

I just seen your message about sleep, I am too going to rest. As they say May Allah open your eyes fully and may He grant you success on your trip. Ameen

 

[humblemuslim]

But the Quran you hold so dear in your heart and hand, was transmitted through the tongues of men, just like the hadith were, therefore they have both come from the same source.

You do not accept the hadith because you believe men make things up, or whatever reason but this could have happened to the Quran. Why didnt it, becuase the men who narrated it were trustworthy.

You probably read the Quran from the following chain of transmission but i am sure you didnt know about this chain brother:

Hafs bin Sulaimaan bin Al Mughairah Al Asadee Al Kufee

From

Aasim bin Abee An Najood Al Kufee At Taabi’ee

From

Abee Abdir Rahmaan Abdillah bin Habeeb As Sulamee

From

‘Uthmaan bin ‘Affaan and ‘Alee bin Abee Taalib and Zaid bin Thaabit and ‘Ubai bin Ka’b

From

Prophet

This chain is Hafs recitation, which was narrated from the above people. If you accept the Quran as it is, you have to accept that chains of transmission, whether they are relating hadith or Quran, as an acceptable and trustworthy soruce.

I just seen your message about sleep, I am too going to rest. As they say May Allah open your eyes fully and may He grant you success on your trip. Ameen

You can judge the two seperately based on their merits/fruits. Example:

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 13:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
"Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, none of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father and his children."

​

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 14:

Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said "None of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father, his children and all mankind."
​

We see in this example, both Hadith are referring to a saying of the prophet regarding the same subject. Yet there are clear differences. They both omit a section of what the other has said.

Does this mean the prophet made the saying twice, but stated the same topic in two similar yet different ways?

Does this mean the transmitters forgot and stated what they remembered in err?

Could be either of the above or something else...

Uncertainly like this is easy to generate with the Hadith. It makes Islam difficult to follow and a religion based on conjecture. This is a rather mild example, but it serves to point out the Hadith are not consistent like the Qur'an. I open the Qur'an at any Surah and I find the same clear message. Certainly there are passages that are beyond my understanding, but the core important message is crystal clear.

We have absolutely zero context why the prophet made this(these) saying(s). It leads to assumptions(Conjecture).


If this happened to the Qur'an then...

[4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.


I want to make sure we are regarding the same thing. When you say recitation are you referring to the dictatorial markings? Since of course the markings would change the way one would pronounce words and their meanings pending surrounding context.I apologize for the delayed response. Been busy

 

[JJWhite]

Assalaamu alaikum, Humble Muslim.

Have you come across these books before? I've read the first one. The last one can be read online.

Amazon.com: The Authority and Importance of The Sunnah (9781891540097): Jamal Al-Din Zarabozo: Books

Amazon.com: A Textbook of Hadith Studies: Authenticity, Compilation, Classification and Criticism of Hadith (9780860374350): Mohammad Hashim Kamali: Books

Mustalah Al Hadith

 

[humblemuslim]

Assalaamu alaikum, Humble Muslim.

Have you come across these books before? I've read the first one. The last one can be read online.

Amazon.com: The Authority and Importance of The Sunnah (9781891540097): Jamal Al-Din Zarabozo: Books

Amazon.com: A Textbook of Hadith Studies: Authenticity, Compilation, Classification and Criticism of Hadith (9780860374350): Mohammad Hashim Kamali: Books

Mustalah Al Hadith

Thanks for sharing the links sister. I'll read them in my free time GOD willing

 

[JJWhite]

Thanks for sharing the links sister. I'll read them in my free time GOD willing

Prioritize.