Hadith: Discussion

[humblemuslim]

I wanted to start a thread regarding Hadith, their Science, and their application in the lives of muslims around the world.

I would like to open the discussion with the following question:

Why do some people outside of Islam regard the Hadith as an all or nothing type of source?

Why is picking and choosing a problem?

As humans we pick and choose sources on a daily basis. If I read the newspaper, am I obligated to believe all or nothing?

If I pick up a textbook, can I not see the light in one sentence without regarding the whole book is correct?

I really do not see any reason why it must be a game of all or nothing. Let's start here.

 

[Chesterton]

Why is picking and choosing a problem?

I don't have a problem with the idea that some interpretations can be right and some wrong, and I don't hold that against Islam. I have a problem, as I said in that other thread, with the source of hadith - Muhammad himself. Unless the original source is right, no possible interpretation can be right. And if Muhammad denied the only Messiah of mankind, Muhammad cannot be right.

 

[alhamdullilah]

I don't have a problem with the idea that some interpretations can be right and some wrong, and I don't hold that against Islam. I have a problem, as I said in that other thread, with the source of hadith - Muhammad himself. Unless the original source is right, no possible interpretation can be right. And if Muhammad denied the only Messiah of mankind, Muhammad cannot be right.

When did he ever deny that jesus is the messiah?

 

[AskTheFamily]

When did he ever deny that jesus is the messiah?

Let's keep it on hadith discussion.

 

[Montalban]

Which Hadith should I reject?

 

[humblemuslim]

Which Hadith should I reject?

A fair question.

As long as we can agree that not all Hadith have to be accepted, then we can move forward with the next logical step. Which ones are to be accepted and which ones are to be rejected? What are the criteria?

Let us discuss the criteria further. Let me just list some possibilities and we can discuss each one individually, or you may add more if you so choose.

A muslim regards the Qur'an as the direct/literal Word of GOD. A Christian does not. So in order for you to understand my list you must be willing to look at my list through my eyes, so to speak. Just acknowledge this assumption on my part so we can focus on Hadith and not the Qur'an.

An accepted Hadith:

1. Must never contradict the Qur'an.

2. Must come from a creditable source(s).
a) Who is the narrator of the Hadith?
b) How many people reported the same Hadith independently?

3. Must make sense.

4. Can not contradict other accepted Hadith.

Let's start with these requirements.

 

[humblemuslim]

I don't have a problem with the idea that some interpretations can be right and some wrong, and I don't hold that against Islam. I have a problem, as I said in that other thread, with the source of hadith - Muhammad himself. Unless the original source is right, no possible interpretation can be right. And if Muhammad denied the only Messiah of mankind, Muhammad cannot be right.

Well interpretations certainly play their role, but there is also the matter of which Hadith are to be accepted and which are to be rejected. This is an important matter.

Well such a view negates any further discussion. I do not want to turn this thread into a defense of Muhammad.

 

[Montalban]

Let's start with these requirements.

Don't you have a list that meet these requirements?

 

[humblemuslim]

Don't you have a list that meet these requirements?

You are looking for a specific set of Hadith?

I personally have no such list. Others do. But as a matter of my personal convictions I must investigate all matters myself before acknowledging them. I am in the process of that investigation. Simply trusting other people blindly is not an option I wish to pursue. It leads to confusion and misrepresentation of beliefs.

That is one reason I opened this thread. Seeing as my studies have expanded, I am looking to discuss the Hadith and their acceptance and rejection as a living topic, not as one that has already been hammered to death (To the point where everything has already been decided upon).

Does my list of requirements satisfy critique? Or does it need revisions before moving on?

 

[Montalban]

You are looking for a specific set of Hadith?

You're the one who laid down the specifics - why would I want to look up un-scientific hadith?

 

[humblemuslim]

You're the one who laid down the specifics - why would I want to look up un-scientific hadith?

I do not follow you. What exactly are you referring to?

 

[Montalban]

I do not follow you. What exactly are you referring to?

You said that there are some Hadith one can't rely upon. You gave criteria for judging these. I asked if there was Hadith I could rely upon.

I said where is there such a list.

You said that there is none

So why should I read a list of Hadith including that which I shouldn't rely on? What's the point?

 

[humblemuslim]

You said that there are some Hadith one can't rely upon. You gave criteria for judging these. I asked if there was Hadith I could rely upon.

I said where is there such a list.

You said that there is none

So why should I read a list of Hadith including that which I shouldn't rely on? What's the point?

I said there is no such list that I have personally verified. I am not about to acknowledge another list without first verifying it myself. By doing so I place myself in the position of accepting GOD knows what. Then we have a situation where my true beliefs are misrepresented, causing confusion.

Other muslims have their lists. So lists do exist.

Well if one is reading them without first acknowledging which are acceptable and which are not, based on some agreed upon criteria, then you are correct that there is little benefit. That is why we are discussing the topic before we dive into specific Hadith.

 

[humblemuslim]

PS:

This is not a lecture thread. This is a discussion thread.

I feel as though I am being asked to lecture on the topic as if I have all the answers.

That is simply not the case nor the intent of the thread.

 

[Montalban]

I said there is no such list that I have personally verified. I am not about to acknowledge another list without first verifying it myself. By doing so I place myself in the position of accepting GOD knows what. Then we have a situation where my true beliefs are misrepresented, causing confusion.

I never said you had such a list. I asked you why, for practical reasons would you want to read inaccuarate hadiths?

 

[humblemuslim]

I never said you had such a list. I asked you why, for practical reasons would you want to read inaccuarate hadiths?

Okay. I apologize if I mistook what you said.

There is no practical reason for reading inaccurate Hadith.

It is just an unfortunate set of circumstances where the good and the bad have been mixed up.

We can either throw them all out (A view I have held for quite some time, but am now willing to investigate the issue further).

Or we can sort through the ones we do have and find the ones that contain good information.

 

[Montalban]

At the very least mark which ones are inaccurate.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

We Baha'is simply ignore them except for the few that are directly quoted in our scriptures, given that even the Muslims themselves can't agree on which ones are and aren't legitimate or reliable.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Montalban]

given that even the Muslims themselves can't agree on which ones are and aren't legitimate or reliable.

You don't rely on them because the Moslems don't know which are reliable? How do you know the ones your scriptures quote are reliable?

I would have thought the majority of Moslems agree on Bukhari being reliable a collection

 

[humblemuslim]

At the very least mark which ones are inaccurate.

Once someone does that, even with the best of intentions, they have altered the viewpoint of all future generations for better or for worse.

It is dangerous to tamper with any religious documents, even if one feels they are for the best.

I would argue the Hadith are not essential, but they do offer an additional layer of information that can be valuable and beneficiary to a careful reader.