Hadith: Discussion

AskTheFamily

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I really had no idea anyone took away the Witnessing in Salah. This stuff hurts a lot. I could see Islam_mullia being upset for what reason now. This is too far when people think they know more about how we should connect to God that whom the book was revealed to.

Also keep in mind we are testifying to the Quran as well. I have no idea why people would take this part away.

Sunnah is complimentary to Quran. It's not possible to have Quran only, because one will abandon Quran when abandoning Sunnah. They go hand to hand.


 
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AskTheFamily

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Do you honestly believe GOD is that petty? So if I do not follow the cookie cutter prayer, then GOD is not pleased with that prayer? That is not an all-merciful act, nor a Just one. It is nonsensical from the perspective that if the details were of such importance that a prayer will not be accepted by GOD, why not include them, without question, in the Qur'an?

Bro humbleMuslim, your not arrogant person, so please try to understand.

Salah is not defined by a ritual form. That's just an outward form, it's not Salah. God says in Quran "woe to those whom do Salah, those whom are heedless in their Salah".

Just as Salah has an outward, it has inward. The Inward of the Outward is explained in Quran.

For example, why are we forced to do Salawat. We might not understand it, but see for example, the response of God for "why not a treasure..." and how God negated the love of Dunya through out.

The connection to God, how does it take place? Is it without a means? Or is through a means? You will see God says through a means "we made them Leaders whom guide by our command and revealed them the doing of good, and the establishment of Salah"

Salah was not simply outward. It has various ranks and stages. The outward form we have, it sort of body that is for all stages and suited for many states and remembrance.

Quran talks about bowing, prostration, glorifying God's Name, etc, reciting Quran, all this is talked about, but it didn't give us the exact form.

It doesn't even say we have to read Suratal Fatiha but Suratal Fatiha is the heart of Salah. You take it out, and it's spirit is gone.

We have to understand we don't understand all things right away. The outward is suppose to be a guide to look for explanation in Quran. We have that background and then we see with Quran, what are we remembering in Salah and what it has to do with connecting to God, his blessed Name and purpose of Salah.

If God put it all plain words the whole Shariah, people would not search the inward.

You would think for example, Salah is that outward command, and that's it. It's not explained that way. It has discipline.

See for example Wicked Willow. She sees these things as rituals with no deep purpose. Quran has explained the Inward wisdom, but to whom, to whom it was revealed. That Messenger (pbuh) is the whom clarified and taught it to the companions. The early believers understood the religion in deep manner. The later people whom converted due to the sword (as you know they would not accept peace so this was last alternative), they had no in depth understanding but at least they had the outward form.

Try to understand bro that Prophethood is not simply about giving us simply instructions. It's about revealing to us and guiding us to truths. It's about teaching the soul...

Some people do Salah but go blow themselves up in the masses. If they ever connected to God, they would not have done so. This is because they never searched out for the inward salah.

People sastified of the outward forms and don't want the treasured mercy of God, they are tricking themselves by the outward forms.

If you thought about why God wants you to testify to Mohammad (pbuh) Servanthood and Messengerhood, as well to bless him and his family, and read to find out why in God's book, the Sunnah and it's wisdom would become manifest and clear.

Instead for whatever reason you follow either your own or ignorant people opinion that Salah should not included Mohammad (pbuh) which is baseless because he is included no matter what in Suratal Fatiha and you can't deny him being Favored Servant as well if you recite some of the small Surahs', they are about him.

I warn you with love as a brother, to submit to the Sunnah bro for it's all contained in the Quran even if you don't preceive it. Iblees wants to Worship God directly, he did, got rewarded, but when he suppose to go to God through Adam (as), his Ego got in the way.

You want no one inbetween you and God's word, and rely on yourself, what if the a whole a lot is about trying us by this.. what if part of the Quran is about the door to enter to understand the Quran. See my name bro, the family I refer to is the elect family.

God wants us to approach him not arrogantly. Disbeleivers would say why doesn't God talk to them or bring down a sign to them, etc.. Your now asking why isn't this and this clear in Quran... We don't make demands on God and we don't say he would have to make it clear for me this and that... this is not right bro, we submit and search out knowledge.

It's true God could in one surah explained the Salah all in detail. However we don't ask why God does things. We submit.

You admit you don't know Quran in detail, you lack knowledge. We all do. However does his Messenger (pbuh) not know the book insight out? This is why we have to submit to the Messenger (pbuh) clarification of the Quran.

I admonish you to reconsider on how to approach the Sunnah of the Rasool (pbuh).

I understand you don't want to blindly follow people and their verdicts. This is fine. I don't do this either.
 
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humblemuslim

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Let me get this straight. Are you saying the 'Prophet' in Quran 73:20, 49:02, 58:12, for example, is not referring to Muhammad (pbuh)? show us your proof that the ayats given are referring to other prophets.
How do you get to your conclusion?

No. What I am saying is that the Qur'an is trying to emphasize not 'distinguishing the prophets' by not continually using Muhammad's name throughout the text. If you replace all the prophet/messenger references that are directed to Muhammad with the proper name you will find that the references clearly out way the references to other prophets. This is just a side point of interest. Not something I hold any strong belief regarding.




I dont get you. If you do not follow the hadith and Ulema from making interpretations on allegoricals in Quran, what stops you from making any smart interpretations as you and your friends have done in other ayats?

Did GOD not give us our minds to us them? Or shall I just follow others blindly and believe that GOD has given me a blunt tool and/or a confusing Scripture? I agree some Ayat are difficult to understand. But the core message of the Qur'an (The most important parts) are crystal clear, as the Qur'an says they should be...

Are you speaking for God?

Why do you think the Prophet wants his Ummah to pray in a certain way and not in any way that Muslims like?

GOD has already spoken in the Qur'an. If you can not address the argument I have brought forth, then why should I change my mind?

Please show me in the Qur'an where it says one must prayer a certain way (Exactly) for it to count/be valid. This is a very important subject. GOD would not exclude such an important salvation based item from the Qur'an...

If GOD excluded such a thing, then GOD is being unclear about the requirements of Salat. Especially so when I frequently hear "You need the Hadith to 'know' how to pray". Do you believe GOD would be unclear about such an important thing?


How different would that be from Apple Pie's translations? You are using translations that totally divert from the acceptables.

Let me ask you this. How do you think Pickthall and Yusuf Ali, for example, come out with the translations? Based on their intelligent thinking or based on certain writings on the history of the revelations of the ayats?

All translators must rely on their intellect. That is a given. They can also rely on the intellects of others. This is certainly an option. Whether blindly or through investigation (If one can be conducted).


I gave you a commentary of the ayat.

I like to ask, on what basis are the ayats you quoted based on the comparison of Quran and hadith, and not on shirk and tauhid (39:28-30).
Pls give some concrete answers and not based on your guesswork.

Your commentary just opens by stating "Allah in this parable has explained the difference between shirk and Tauhid" without actually showing that is true. Shall I just accept what you believe blindly? Does the Ayat have only one correct meaning? So your guesswork, and the guesswork of your sources is acceptable, but mine is not? :doh:

The Ayat speaks of disputing partners and a single master. When I read it again, and once more again, it can be applicable to the Hadith/Qur'an situtation. Although I never said that is the only correct understanding. That is one understanding of the Ayat.




You used the translation in your argument, I should think it is appropriate for you to stand up and say you agree with the translator. You chicken out now?

Anyway, I believe you said you are not a Quran only person, yet the translation you used is from that source, Submission website, Khalifa translation:
http://www.submission.ws/index.php/sura-39-the-throngs-al-zumar.html

Take a look around the forums and threads I have posted in. I use a wide variety of translations. The "All or nothing" attitude you have here is exactly the attitude I am speaking against in the OP of this thread.

I consider all the following translations: Literal , Free Minds , Khalifa , Yusuf Ali , Shakir , Pickthal , Arberry , Geroge Sale and others. If you have a problem with the diversity of the translations I use, that is little of my concern...If you believe I am part of this sect you mention and believe alike to them, then you are obviously not being guided by GOD on this regard and have no knowledge of what you speak of. You have a lot of passion, which is good. But this passion needs to have a reasonable limit.
:wave:


I asked you for the CONTEXT of that ayat. Why was it revealed, when and in what situation? Only then would you understand why you reasonings are lame.

I still dont see how the ayat was talking about Quran and hadith. It was clearly talking about shirk and tauhid. See the whole Surah.

So my commentary is 'lame' but your source is enlightening? Who taught you to call people in disagreement with you 'lame' and not address what they are saying? I am curious where this misguidance is coming from...

The Khalifa translation which you love to quote is here
Sura 17: The Children of Israel (Bani Israel) - Sura 17: The Children of Israel (Bani Israel) Sura 17: The Children of Israel (Bani Israel) Number of verses in sura: 111 Order of revelation: 50 [17:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Funny, you mentioned the translations were from Qur'an English Translation. You could at least be more factual and say it is from Khalifa or Submission website.

Are you trying to deceive Muslims?

Look, what Khalifa website is saying is that the word 'Alone' should be included, so that the verse becomes "And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran alone,*" instead of "thou dost commemorate thy Lord and Him alone in the Qur'an" in Yusuf Ali.

Your Khalifa even went on to say:

*17:46 The Arabic word "alone" refers to God in 7:70, 39:45, 40:12 & 84, and 60:4. If you add these numbers, you get 361, 19x19. But if you include 17:46, which refers to the Quran, the product is not a multiple of 19. "Alone," therefore refers to the Quran in 17:46 (Appendix 18).


He plays with God's words to come up with his insensible 'multiple of 19'.


Will continue when I have the time

Do you not see the message is the same? ...If you disagree then to each their own understanding.

Brother there are aspects of this translation I dislike that you have not even mentioned that are far more important than some silly number game.

Khalifa has ommitted Qur'an Ayat. Most notably he ommitted Ayat 9:128 and 9:129 because it did not follow his number games.

Do not be misguided into believing that just because I use his translations among the pool of translations I use that I agree with everything he believed/did/translated.
 
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humblemuslim

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I really had no idea anyone took away the Witnessing in Salah. This stuff hurts a lot. I could see Islam_mullia being upset for what reason now. This is too far when people think they know more about how we should connect to God that whom the book was revealed to.

Also keep in mind we are testifying to the Quran as well. I have no idea why people would take this part away.

Sunnah is complimentary to Quran. It's not possible to have Quran only, because one will abandon Quran when abandoning Sunnah.
They go hand to hand.



I often hear this concept that to deny the Qur'an is to deny the Hadith. But I have yet to see a good reason why this should be the case.

Why stop at the Hadith? I can use the same nonsense principles to accept the New Testament quotes of the prophet Jesus and the Old Testament quotes from the other prophets. Once you open this door you are required to stand upon a double standard to restrict disagreeable content or open it to all content. Why are the extranous texts with Muhammad's quotes good but those of prophet Jesus are not? This ideology is inconsistent and is no better than what those have done before us. Do you believe the Jews just one day decided 'Let us corrupt GOD's word'. It is possible they did the very same thing muslims are doing today and ended up with their current version of the Torah and the Christians with their New Testament.

Thank GOD the Most Merciful that the Hadith are clearly separate from the Qur'an so the two can be addressed on separate terms or collectively.
 
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AskTheFamily

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bro humbleMuslim, can you respond to my last post at least. :(

It's hurting me how people approach Quran and Sunnah. Either people go the extreme of rejecting clear verses to stick to their conjecture system or they go the other and reject the Sunnah, which is bright light having it's wisdom in Quran.

Either abandoning Quran which is the True Sunnah too or abandoning Sunnah which is the true Quran as well. Perhaps the balance is between these.
 
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AskTheFamily

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I often hear this concept that to deny the Qur'an is to deny the Hadith. But I have yet to see a good reason why this should be the case.

Why stop at the Hadith? I can use the same nonsense principles to accept the New Testament quotes of the prophet Jesus and the Old Testament quotes from the other prophets. Once you open this door you are required to stand upon a double standard to restrict disagreeable content or open it to all content. Why are the extranous texts with Muhammad's quotes good but those of prophet Jesus are not? This ideology is inconsistent and is no better than what those have done before us. Do you believe the Jews just one day decided 'Let us corrupt GOD's word'. It is possible they did the very same thing muslims are doing today and ended up with their current version of the Torah and the Christians with their New Testament.

Thank GOD the Most Merciful that the Hadith are clearly separate from the Qur'an so the two can be addressed on separate terms or collectively.

Bro for sure the Jinn Worshipping secret societies never leave any revelation to stay. There is a lot of fabrications but do you think the believers would watch all the fabrications and have no say in it. Just as their is lies spread, their is light spread. Just as their darkness that goes against Quran spread, their is light that manifests the Quran spreadh.

knowledge is light. You can witness the Sunnah with insights from God.

Ahlebayt (as) go hand to hand with Quran. If you approach them, everything will become easy. If you try to hold on to them as awell as Quran, the whole issue will become easy.

The ambigious will become clear and the doubts will be removed. Rely on them and you will see they are not prone to conjecture and will teach you the revelation.

"We did not send any men except that we revealed to them, therefore ask the family of the reminder if/when you do not know".


You read bukhari, I suggest you take a look into the words of Ahlebayt (as). For example, we have a hadith that explains the Miraaj with Adaan and Aqaama and Salah, and if you understand what is being said about occurence of the Miraaj and Adan and Aqama and the stages of Salah, through that, you will see it bro, the glorious form, it like the Quran cannot be fabricated.

You haven't read the hadiths of the people whom were killed and prosecuted and suffered a whole to keep.

You've been reading hadiths of people whom submitted to unjust rulers and didn't sacrifice lives for them.

Read the hadiths that were passed on by blood of martyrs, and you will inshallah see a whole different type of hadiths then you are use to.

Give them a chance bro. Learn Arabic and go approach them.
 
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humblemuslim

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Bro humbleMuslim, your not arrogant person, so please try to understand.

Salah is not defined by a ritual form. That's just an outward form, it's not Salah. God says in Quran "woe to those whom do Salah, those whom are heedless in their Salah".

Just as Salah has an outward, it has inward. The Inward of the Outward is explained in Quran.

For example, why are we forced to do Salawat. We might not understand it, but see for example, the response of God for "why not a treasure..." and how God negated the love of Dunya through out.

The connection to God, how does it take place? Is it without a means? Or is through a means? You will see God says through a means "we made them Leaders whom guide by our command and revealed them the doing of good, and the establishment of Salah"

Salah was not simply outward. It has various ranks and stages. The outward form we have, it sort of body that is for all stages and suited for many states and remembrance.

Quran talks about bowing, prostration, glorifying God's Name, etc, reciting Quran, all this is talked about, but it didn't give us the exact form.

It doesn't even say we have to read Suratal Fatiha but Suratal Fatiha is the heart of Salah. You take it out, and it's spirit is gone.

We have to understand we don't understand all things right away. The outward is suppose to be a guide to look for explanation in Quran. We have that background and then we see with Quran, what are we remembering in Salah and what it has to do with connecting to God, his blessed Name and purpose of Salah.

If God put it all plain words the whole Shariah, people would not search the inward.

You would think for example, Salah is that outward command, and that's it. It's not explained that way. It has discipline.

See for example Wicked Willow. She sees these things as rituals with no deep purpose. Quran has explained the Inward wisdom, but to whom, to whom it was revealed. That Messenger (pbuh) is the whom clarified and taught it to the companions. The early believers understood the religion in deep manner. The later people whom converted due to the sword (as you know they would not accept peace so this was last alternative), they had no in depth understanding but at least they had the outward form.

Try to understand bro that Prophethood is not simply about giving us simply instructions. It's about revealing to us and guiding us to truths. It's about teaching the soul...

Some people do Salah but go blow themselves up in the masses. If they ever connected to God, they would not have done so. This is because they never searched out for the inward salah.

People sastified of the outward forms and don't want the treasured mercy of God, they are tricking themselves by the outward forms.

If you thought about why God wants you to testify to Mohammad (pbuh) Servanthood and Messengerhood, as well to bless him and his family, and read to find out why in God's book, the Sunnah and it's wisdom would become manifest and clear.

Instead for whatever reason you follow either your own or ignorant people opinion that Salah should not included Mohammad (pbuh) which is baseless because he is included no matter what in Suratal Fatiha and you can't deny him being Favored Servant as well if you recite some of the small Surahs', they are about him.

I warn you with love as a brother, to submit to the Sunnah bro for it's all contained in the Quran even if you don't preceive it. Iblees wants to Worship God directly, he did, got rewarded, but when he suppose to go to God through Adam (as), his Ego got in the way.

You want no one inbetween you and God's word, and rely on yourself, what if the a whole a lot is about trying us by this.. what if part of the Quran is about the door to enter to understand the Quran. See my name bro, the family I refer to is the elect family.

God wants us to approach him not arrogantly. Disbeleivers would say why doesn't God talk to them or bring down a sign to them, etc.. Your now asking why isn't this and this clear in Quran... We don't make demands on God and we don't say he would have to make it clear for me this and that... this is not right bro, we submit and search out knowledge.

It's true God could in one surah explained the Salah all in detail. However we don't ask why God does things. We submit.

You admit you don't know Quran in detail, you lack knowledge. We all do. However does his Messenger (pbuh) not know the book insight out? This is why we have to submit to the Messenger (pbuh) clarification of the Quran.

I admonish you to reconsider on how to approach the Sunnah of the Rasool (pbuh).

I understand you don't want to blindly follow people and their verdicts. This is fine. I don't do this either.

Musa stated he has a problem with this mention. I merely stated it is not our place to judge Musa or his Salat. If we want to point out what we believe that it fine. But the posts I read here went well beyond mere mention and into clear judgment. The prayer is for our Remembrance of GOD. Acknowledging GOD's messenger in prayer is not something I personally have any quarrel with, though I find no reason to limit it to Muhammad. Believers should not distinguish among the prophets, so as long as we can agree that doing likewise for Isa, Ibraham, etc. is acceptable then you will find no disagreement on this matter from me. Intentions are key here.

In the Qur'an GOD tells us the Qur'an is clear/unambiguous. If Salat is ambiguous, then that is the same as saying GOD is not being truthful. Something none of us believe. I believe the Qur'an clearly speaks of Salat and how to perform it from the true perspective (The inner beauty of prayer you have spoken of here). The motions are not emphasized. So we find agreement here.

But does the Messenger not only know what has been revealed to him? Did GOD reveal everything to Muhammad? When I say everything, I mean a complete understanding of every single thing. I am not referring to the physical text revealed.

Well you and others will have to have patience with me if I am to change my mind. It is not going to happen suddenly. It will take time and study. As you said, you understand that I do not want to accept things just because someone said so.
 
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humblemuslim

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bro humbleMuslim, can you respond to my last post at least. :(

It's hurting me how people approach Quran and Sunnah. Either people go the extreme of rejecting clear verses to stick to their conjecture system or they go the other and reject the Sunnah, which is bright light having it's wisdom in Quran.

Either abandoning Quran which is the True Sunnah too or abandoning Sunnah which is the true Quran as well. Perhaps the balance is between these.

Post 102 or another one?? :confused:
 
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AskTheFamily

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Musa stated he has a problem with this mention. I merely stated it is not our place to judge Musa or his Salat. If we want to point out what we believe that it fine. But the posts I read here went well beyond mere mention and into clear judgment. The prayer is for our Remembrance of GOD.

Bro, we don't have opinions in religion. I am not saying God want accept his efforts and reward him for his good, I'm saying it doesn't count as the Salah talked about in Quran.

This is not about judging, Salah is what it is, and a person taking parts of it away, will not be counted as one doing it.
Acknowledging GOD's messenger in prayer is not something I personally have any quarrel with, though I find no reason to limit it to Muhammad. Believers should not distinguish among the prophets, so as long as we can agree that doing likewise for Isa, Ibraham, etc. is acceptable then you will find no disagreement on this matter from me. Intentions are key here.

No I can't agree bro, I'm sorry, it will make the Salah invalid if you add what you think you can or not. This will cause huge disunity if people begin to add and take away what they like from Salah. What possibly can be the motive of doing this?



In the Qur'an GOD tells us the Qur'an is clear/unambiguous. If Salat is ambiguous, then that is the same as saying GOD is not being truthful. Something none of us believe. I believe the Qur'an clearly speaks of Salat and how to perform it from the true perspective (The inner beauty of prayer you have spoken of here). The motions are not emphasized. So we find agreement here.

The Quran is clear with knowledge, "nay it is clear signs in those whom hearts have been given knowledge". It's clear and manifest signs.

However it needs knowledge bro. Everyone understands somethings from it however, and he should work from there.



But does the Messenger not only know what has been revealed to him? Did GOD reveal everything to Muhammad? When I say everything, I mean a complete understanding of every single thing. I am not referring to the physical text revealed.

Discussion of Mohamad (pbuh) extent of his knowledge is irrelevant here. But for sure, he would have to apply all the commands in Quran so knew what they were.

But he know the meaning of Alif lam meem and Ta ha and Ya Seen for example, and these also can be learned by believers.
 
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AskTheFamily

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Well you and others will have to have patience with me if I am to change my mind. It is not going to happen suddenly. It will take time and study. As you said, you understand that I do not want to accept things just because someone said so.

Inshallah.

How about we talk about 5:67, and Suratal Maeeda.

I think the verse 5:67 proves the validity of looking into hadiths for guidance. Once proven this as a basis and talk about the Mutuwatir hadiths about this. I think we can then move on from there.

First tell me what you think the verse 5:67 means.
 
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AskTheFamily

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You can take as either in a way of:

O mail man, if you don't deliver the mail, you have not deliver the mail.

The first line already implies he should deliver mail, then he is told if he doesn't deliver the mail, guess what, he hasn't deliver the mail!

jump, and if you don't jump, then you don't jump.

It makes no sense.

So the real meaning is that it was something that needed to be delivered that obviously not Quran, for he knows he must convey Quran, but he needed to extend.

You can go find out what that is via hadiths. It was so vitally important, without it, the message would not be delivered.

This was regarding Ghadeer declaration.

And in fact it has that a link with all the Surah from 12 Captains to other verses.. it's all linked.

The issue people read it the dumb way so don't realize this showing on what occassion that disbelievers despaired of destoying the religion and the day God completed the religion.

So 5:67 shows hadiths are legitimate and it's ofcourse necessary for the people to pass on this message.
 
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Musa80

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Bro, we don't have opinions in religion. I am not saying God want accept his efforts and reward him for his good, I'm saying it doesn't count as the Salah talked about in Quran.

This is not about judging, Salah is what it is, and a person taking parts of it away, will not be counted as one doing it.


No I can't agree bro, I'm sorry, it will make the Salah invalid if you add what you think you can or not. This will cause huge disunity if people begin to add and take away what they like from Salah. What possibly can be the motive of doing this?

The Quran does not anywhere say we are to mingle Muhammad or any other prophet in with our salaat which is for Allah alone. I asked several times already, for one of you guys to please show me the hadeeth that fully detail the salaat as it exists today. No one has done this yet. If you are going to make the claim that there is an exact method of performing salaat, and anything that varies is "invalid" then it should not be hard for you to produce what I've asked for.

Now, don't get me wrong here. I do believe there is a generally accepted method for doing salaat. I just don't believe it can be detailed with hadith. It's more a tradition passed down from generation to generation. All that is fine, but that being the case, there is no way that it hasn't varied from one degree to another over time.

Please, do me a favor and prove me wrong on this. If you can show me from hadith and Quran, the full detail of salaat as practiced today, I will surely admit my error and change my practices.
 
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Musa80

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If you abandon the Christ for a criminal guerrilla warlord, you better be ready to tolerate a lot more nonsense and hearsay than you seem to realize right now.


I meant to comment on this previously, but did not for some reason. This kind of comment right here illustrates one of my major issues with hadith. Muhammad was an upright and righteous prophet. Unfortunately, most of the world thinks he was a schitzophrenic, war mongering, pedophile, camel urine drinkin nutbag who craps on his own rooftop and gets divine revelation from watching monkeys throw rocks at each other. Every bit of this nonsense comes from hadith, and those who lend their approval to hadith do more to slander the name of Muhammad than any non-Muslim ever could.

BTW Ches, we could say the same since your church sold it's collective soul to the pagan warlord Constantine. Just sayin....
 
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Musa80

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I think I have found a few hadiths that might be worth following :)

Muhammad Husayn Haykal
“ Umar ibn al-Khattab once tried to deal with the problem of committing the Hadith to writing. The companions of the Prophet whom he consulted, encouraged him, but he was not quite sure whether he should proceed. One day, moved by God's inspiration, he made up his mind and announced: "I wanted to have the traditions of the Prophet written down, but I fear that the Book of God might be encroached upon. Hence I shall not permit this to happen." He, therefore, changed his mind and instructed the Muslims throughout the provinces: "Whoever has a document bearing a prophetic tradition, shall destroy it." The Hadith, therefore, continued to be transmitted orally and was not collected and written down until the period of al-Mamun. ”
Dr. Mohammad Hamidullah
“ Abu-Dhahabi reports: The Caliph Abu-Bakr compiled a work, in which there were 500 traditions of the Prophet, and handed it over to his daughter 'Aishah. The next morning, he took it back from her and destroyed it, saying: "I wrote what I understood; it is possible however that there should be certain things in it which did not correspond textually with what the Prophet had uttered."

As to Umar, we learn on the authority of Ma'mar ibn Rashid, that during his caliphate, Umar once consulted the companions of the Prophet on the subject of codifying the Hadith. Everybody seconded the idea. Yet Umar continued to hesitate and pray to God for a whole month for guidance and enlightenment. Ultimately, he decided not to undertake the task, and said: "Former peoples neglected the Divine Books and concentrated only on the conduct of the prophets; I do not want to set up the possibility of confusion between the Divine Qur’an and the Prophet's Hadith."
Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."
 
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Chesterton

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I meant to comment on this previously, but did not for some reason. This kind of comment right here illustrates one of my major issues with hadith. Muhammad was an upright and righteous prophet. Unfortunately, most of the world thinks he was a schitzophrenic, war mongering, pedophile, camel urine drinkin nutbag who craps on his own rooftop and gets divine revelation from watching monkeys throw rocks at each other. Every bit of this nonsense comes from hadith, and those who lend their approval to hadith do more to slander the name of Muhammad than any non-Muslim ever could.

I don't know about the stuff you say comes from hadith; my comments were limited to what objective, secular history shows. Military historians agree Muhammad was a brilliant military leader.

BTW Ches, we could say the same since your church sold it's collective soul to the pagan warlord Constantine. Just sayin....

You can find whatever faults you like with my Church, but not with it's founder.
 
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Please, do me a favor and prove me wrong on this. If you can show me from hadith and Quran, the full detail of salaat as practiced today, I will surely admit my error and change my practices.

Itallics are Quran verses or Hadeeth. Bold for emphasis

Facing the Qiblah

He (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) used to pray towards Bait al-Muqaddas [with the Ka'bah in front of him] before the following verse was revealed:

"We see the turning of your faces to the heavens; now shall we turn you to a Qiblah that shall please you: turn then your faces in the direction of the Sacred Mosque" (Baqarah 2:144)"

It narrated from Bukhaari, Muslim, Ahmad, that when this verse was revealed a Companion of the Prophet said:

"When it was revealed he faced the Ka'bah. There were people at Qubaa' praying Fajr when someone came to them and said, 'Verily the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) has had some of the Qur'aan revealed to him last night and he has been ordered to face the Ka'bah, verily so face it'. Their faces were towards Shaam, so they turned round and their Imaam turned round to face the qiblah along with them."

It is narrated in Ahmed and Bukhari:

"When he intended to pray obligatory prayers, he would dismount and face the qiblah"

Do you accept these evidences and that you should face the Qiblah?
 
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Musa80

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Do you accept these evidences and that you should face the Qiblah?

Yes I do. But since this is in the Quran, it is a bit redundant. Now we will need times of prayer, number of raka'ats, when to stand (and what to say), when to bow (and what to say), when to prostrate (and how many times as well as what to say), etc, etc, etc.
 
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humblemuslim

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Inshallah.

How about we talk about 5:67, and Suratal Maeeda.

I think the verse 5:67 proves the validity of looking into hadiths for guidance. Once proven this as a basis and talk about the Mutuwatir hadiths about this. I think we can then move on from there.

First tell me what you think the verse 5:67 means.

Okay we can restart the discussion from here.

Before I get criticized once again for selecting a specific translation, since this is a single verse let us just look at the entire pool:

Qur'an English Translations 5:67 said:
Literal:
You, you the messenger deliver/inform what was descended to you from your Lord, and if you did not make/do (that) so you did not reach (pass) His message, and God protects/shelters you from the people, that God does not guide the nation, the disbelieving.

Free_Minds:
O messenger, deliver what was sent down to you from your Lord, and if you do not then you have not delivered His message; and God will protect you from the people. God does not guide the disbelieving people.

Khalifa:
O you messenger, deliver what is revealed to you from your Lord - until you do, you have not delivered His message - and GOD will protect you from the people. GOD does not guide the disbelieving people.

Yusuf_Ali:
O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.

Shakir:
O Messenger! deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

Pickthal:
O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message. Allah will protect thee from mankind. Lo! Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.

Arberry:
O Messenger, deliver that which has been sent down to thee from thy Lord; for if thou dost not, thou wilt not have delivered His Message. God will protect thee from men. God guides not the people of the unbelievers.

George_Sale:
O Apostle, publish the whole of that which hath been sent down unto thee from thy Lord: For if thou do not, thou dost not in effect publish any part thereof; and God will defend thee against wicked men; for God directeth not the unbelieving people.

Brother, this Ayat to me seems to speak entirely about the Qur'an. In every single translation I do not see any specific mention of Hadith. Unless one assumes the Hadith was delivered to Muhammad from GOD as well.

Are not the Hadith the recordings of what the prophet said and did in addition to the Qur'an? These are the words of Muhammad and the actions of Muhammad (Or at least are claimed as such). Not the Words of GOD nor the actions of GOD. The Qur'an is the Words of GOD. They are dictated (Sent down). Is it believed the Hadith was similarly dictated?
 
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SlaveOfGod

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Okay we can restart the discussion from here.

Before I get criticized once again for selecting a specific translation, since this is a single verse let us just look at the entire pool:



Brother, this Ayat to me seems to speak entirely about the Qur'an. In every single translation I do not see any specific mention of Hadith. Unless one assumes the Hadith was delivered to Muhammad from GOD as well.

Are not the Hadith the recordings of what the prophet said and did in addition to the Qur'an? These are the words of Muhammad and the actions of Muhammad (Or at least are claimed as such). Not the Words of GOD nor the actions of GOD. The Qur'an is the Words of GOD. They are dictated (Sent down). Is it believed the Hadith was similarly dictated?

Allah says in the Quran that Muhammed said only what Allah told him to say and dictated and that he spoke not from his desires.

Muhammed (saAllahu alyahwasalm) said in an authentic hadith that he was sent with the Quran and its equal - meaning the Sunnah. You dont believe in hadith so this irrelevant.

This is why the famous classical scholars of the Quran, like Ibn Kathir, said that the Sunnah was revealed just like the Quran was. Once again irrelevant since you dont believe in the opinion of these classical scholars.
 
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