God forseeing Adam and Eve

[NarrowPathPilgrim]

You have no idea what the word of God means, instead you have interjected your own personal predjudices, and hard hearted traditions. I have come across many like you on this forum, and it only takes a few words for me to know who really know's the Word, without personal influences relpacing God's doctrines.

Lets use scriptural proof for our debates instead of making false accusations.

Sorry, but you have no idea about whom and what the Lord is, nor do you care to know. Your absence of Divine knowledge is replaced by weak human viewpoint. You don't even have the Basics on the character of God, or how He created us? That is very sad! You see you have hardened your heart, you totally refuse even to believe in the possibility of free will, my 5 year old neice know's what it is.

I was raised an Arminian and defended it fiercely up until two months ago, but thank God he gave me "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" the good news of the gospel, the good news that salvation is of the Lord, completely!
But about your five year old neice; Are you going to take the word of her above that of scripture?

What you are saying in one lump sum, is that you make "NO DECISIONS" (in order to decide, one must choose) in your life whatsoever? "NONE"? That you are nothing more than a glob of flesh that walks, crawls around this planet waiting for the wind to blow you here and there?

I make desissions but not in an absolute sense, I'm not the ultimate cause. Scripture teaches the it is 100% impossible for any natural man to come to christ, unless Christ gives him faith.

You don't work?, you don't eat, sleep? shower? drive? type on the computer? shave or not? brush your teeth? comb your hair? etc. etc. etc.? "ALL BECAUSE GOD HAD NOT GIVEN YOU FREE WILL" to do these things, or to CHOOSE to do these things?

That is how it appears to the natural man.

If this is so, then you are in truth saying that God is a murderer? a rapist of small children?, an alcoholic? a drugie? He murdered 6 million jews in WW2, Hitler had nothing to do with it? He's Bin Laden, Bin Laden had no choice? on and on and on and on. BECAUSE GOD DOES THE CHOOSING???? This is "EXACTLY" what you are saying!!!

You are trying to make it appear as if this doctrine removes human responsibility, let us look and see what scripture says!

Romans 9:11-24
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Hab 1:6 For, lo, I (GOD) raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.

Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
​

This would make God therefore an EVIL sinner, and we all know He is sinless and perfect. But according to you, He gave "NO HUMAN" being free will, and ALL of the horendous evil's us humans have done to one another, was absolutely none of our OWN choosing?...... Well "SOMEONE" had to of done these things don't you think??

God is NOT evil, but God DID create evil.

Isaiah 45:6-7
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
​

If you honestly believe this, then NOTHING anyone tell's you here will make any difference at all, and you are truly lost in your heart (but always saved).

Scripture could make a lot of difference...but you haven't really shown me scripture which says I'm wrong.

Wrong. God is not so limited that he needs to fear allowing us choices. That if he did, his plan could not work. Your God is a weak God who must make everyone do as he pleases or he can not get what he wants. In God's unlimited wisdom he utilizes our choices to work together with his desired outcome.

lol, now you are trying an omnipotence paradox Those don't stand up to logic OR scripture.

You're off on a tangent again. Answer the question?...I see. Everyone who is not a hyper calvinist, like you (i.e.,believes heresy) is not saved? Is that what you are getting at? Until you make yourself clear (which you are running from). It seems apparent that is what you are getting at. For if a believer can not resist God's will? Then all who do not believe as you do? Can not be saved. For if we truly believed Christ died for our sins? We would be made to only believe what is correct.

Hey, I am by NOT a hyper Calvinist; look up hyper Calvinism before you apply it to me. And no, though it is possible to determine a person is unsaved, it is not possible for any man to ascertain the reprobate status of another unless God reveals it to him.

Take one, and stop acting silly about it...I see. God is the ultimate cause for everything? God made Adam eat the fruit?

Yes

You must first deal with your obvious inconsistencies if you wish to be taken seriously. God's council will stand. It has nothing to do with man being free to make choices. After all, man was created in God's image. God is not a robot.

In the image of God? Yes
As God? No!!!

And? I am not? What are you getting at? You act as if you are being challenged by heathen trying to disuade you of belief in Christ.

You said that my belief I was secure in Christ was "not based upon Scripture accurately understood."; so I quoted scripture as a response!

God has succeeded! By creating a life that is free to reject his will? Not all will believe when its God's will that they do? Something much bigger is at work here that you fail to see! God has created life that can truly return love. Robots can not love. They can only be programmed for physical pleasure, at best. God did not create a mistress fro Christ. He created a Bride!

That has nothing to do with the question. You said that God wants to save every single person, so you have just two options. Everyone will go to heaven. Or God failed. Which is it?
You will probably answer "He loved us so he gave us liberty, freedom to choose sin if we wanted it". Well, there are two reasons why that doesn't work.
1. Because everyone who sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34) and if that were the case nobody would ever get saved.
2. Because true freedom is not freedom to sin; but rather freedom from sin!

Ironically, it is you who makes God out to be weak and limited. He must control everyone's actions so his plan will work!

You need to study total depravity...that will totally debunk this question because if God isn't in control his plan would really be messed up as nobody would ever get saved.

A parent with a disobedient child does as he wants with that child. Yet, the child is not doing as the parent wishes. The parent did not make that child disobey.

You are limiting God to the position of a parent who can't control the actions of his/her child.

You seem to think otherwise when it comes to God and his creation. That God created some of us to be disobedient so he could punish them. For what? What he made them to be with no choice?

Did you know that this exact objection has been recorded in scripture?

Romans 9:17-21
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
​

We have a choice. Our choices are revealed when God puts us on the potter's wheel and spins us through testings to see if we are willing to be pliable, or rigid and cracked, to be destroyed. One person given the same testings as another will not end up the same way as another. Now, if the potter had left that lump of clay alone? THey would have never become bitter! Its God's fault. He made them become bitter. Right?

You need to read that last verse I quoted again...Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Did you hear that??? "Of the same lump"

Who are we to argue with the potter? If testing brings out bitterness (God ordained the testings) who are we to question God? Others have passed the same testings and ended up peaceful, not bitter. So, do not blame God that when he does things that cause change, that turns out as a bad result for the person. God made us change (potters wheel) but he did not make us to be bad. Don't blame God.

Now you need to go read a few verses ahead of this...the potter makes "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"; it is much more than just trials!

But? One can argue... They were not bitter before being tested. Blame God for what he caused them to become? No! For others will stand in condemnation of the bitter one, by making right choices in the same circumstances of testing which God offered in grace to all.

Like I said, this does not destroy human responsibility

Can we use more scripture instead of just groundless arguments based upon faulty logic?
For example; we don’t need to assume that placing God as the ultimate cause removes the responsibility of man unless we have scripture to prove that (in this instance scripture proves exactly the opposite).

I'm a bit tired right now (Only got a couple hours of sleep last night) so I'm going to head to bed now, but I'll try to get back here later to answer any other objections which may arise!

Sincerely, Zach Doty

 

[GenemZ]

Lets use scriptural proof for our debates instead of making false accusations.

And, let's not answer two different posters in one post? I only see your quotes, not to whom they are addressed to. God made you do it?

I was raised an Arminian and defended it fiercely up until two months ago, but thank God he gave me "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" the good news of the gospel, the good news that salvation is of the Lord, completely!

Its spiritual ping pong. Both sides are wrong. Both see the error of the other, but can not see the truth. The accurate answer is neither Arminianism, nor Calvinism.

I make desissions but not in an absolute sense, I'm not the ultimate cause. Scripture teaches the it is 100% impossible for any natural man to come to christ, unless Christ gives him faith.

CHRIST GIVES FAITH BY GRACE!

We could never have any faith if it were not for Grace.

Grace,and understanding what it is, holds the key to the mechanics of salvation.

One can hear what could constitute faith. Yet, if grace is not present? What could become faith (faith comes by hearing the Word of Christ) falls on death ears.

Its your flesh that contains the sin nature. Not the soul. It is the flesh that dominates and keeps your soul a slave to depravity. If the soul could be freed from the sin natures dominance, then the soul is made free to choose for itself. Free of sin dominating over it. Grace performs that function, so our souls can be made free to choose for Christ. Without grace nobody could get saved.




If God can suppress the effects of the flesh while the Gospel is being presented? Then! By grace it can be done. For example: All believers when they walk in the Spirit are having their flesh and its sin nature suppressed. Grace is the enabling power to be free of sin. God enables and draws all men by grace. Evil thinking rejects the drawing. Humility continues on.

Romans 9:11-24
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Now, there you go. One verse.

Works was a major issue to the Jewish culture of that day. Jews kept wanting to know what the "should do" to be saved. The rich young ruler wanted to know what more work he could do to be saved. They were works obsessed. God does not save us by works. He saves us by one work. Not works (plural).

John 6:28-29 (New International Version)
"Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works (plural) God requires?"

Jesus answered, "The work (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Its says we are not saved by works (a system designed by men to do things to save us). But, one work (believing in Christ) does save us!

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Many see that to say that no work can save us. Yet, it speaks in the plural, of works!

"Works", speaks of a system which was devised by religious men. The Jews in that day were trying to work their way to God. One work after another. Just like the legalistic Muslims try today.

We are not saved by works. No system can save us. Yet, there is ONE work that God says he will accept.

Jesus answered, "The work (singular)of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."


The Calvinists confused the old corrupt system called "works" which were invented by religious men, to mean that no single work can be qualified. But "works" in the plural speaks of a system of works. A system! Not about any single work! A single act is not a system!

All we need to do when God's grace holds down our flesh's oppression over us, so our soul is made free to think outside of the sin nature's dominance; is for at that moment in time, for our soul to believe in Jesus Christ! That is when the Gospel is presented!

Grace makes our souls able to make that choice! And the Gospel presented, supplies the faith we receive onto salvation!

Romans 10:17 niv
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."



​

Its neither Arminianism, nor Calvinism. Its the Word of God!

On top of that? It makes sense!

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong. Each only serves to reveal the folly of the other. Neither holds the answer! Both contradict God's Word in some way.

Galatians 5:17 niv
"For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. "



​

The "you" that may not do things that you please, is your soul? Grace frees up the soul as to be able to walk after Christ. And, grace is what frees up the soul so it can be made able to make a choice for believing in Christ!

No grace? Then, no one can ever get saved! Not even Moses!

Grace and peace, GeneZ






​

 

[Gwenyfur]

 

[cygnusx1]

Scripture says that God worketh ALL THINGS after the council of HIS OWN WILL; not our will.

Wrong. God is not so limited that he needs to fear allowing us choices. That if he did, his plan could not work. Your version of God is a weak God who must make everyone do as he wills or he can not get what he wants. In God's unlimited wisdom he utilizes even our wrong choices to work together with his desired outcome.

I see no real contradiction between what NPP said above and what you said under him .......... for it is plain to see that if God utilizes even our wrong choices so that they "work together WITH HIS DESIRED WILL" that all things DO WORK TOGETHER AFTER THE COUNCIL OF God's Will !

 

[sawdust]

I see no real contradiction between what NPP said above and what you said under him .......... for it is plain to see that if God utilizes even our wrong choices so that they "work together WITH HIS DESIRED WILL" that all things DO WORK TOGETHER AFTER THE COUNCIL OF God's Will !

Well the contradiction I see is there is a big difference between "God utilizing our wrong choices" and "God causing our wrong choices" and I hear the Calvinist speak the latter. Am I simply hearing the Calvinists wrong? I don't think so but I'll stand corrected.

I have sinned in my life. Did God cause me to sin? Yes or no? What does the Calvinist answer?

peace

 

[JimfromOhio]

Well the contradiction I see is there is a big difference between "God utilizing our wrong choices" and "God causing our wrong choices" and I hear the Calvinist speak the latter. Am I simply hearing the Calvinists wrong? I don't think so but I'll stand corrected.

I have sinned in my life. Did God cause me to sin? Yes or no? What does the Calvinist answer?

peace

God's Sovereign:
Job 37:15 Do you know how God controls the clouds and makes his lightning flash?

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Romans 9:14-22 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

 

[cygnusx1]

Well the contradiction I see is there is a big difference between "God utilizing our wrong choices" and "God causing our wrong choices" and I hear the Calvinist speak the latter. Am I simply hearing the Calvinists wrong? I don't think so but I'll stand corrected.

I have sinned in my life. Did God cause me to sin? Yes or no? What does the Calvinist answer?

peace

There are many ways of "causing" something to occur .
ask yourself do Calvinists believe in a permissive decree concerning sin .............

 

[linssue55]

Lets use scriptural proof for our debates instead of making false accusations.

I was raised an Arminian and defended it fiercely up until two months ago, but thank God he gave me "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" the good news of the gospel, the good news that salvation is of the Lord, completely!
But about your five year old neice; Are you going to take the word of her above that of scripture?

I make desissions but not in an absolute sense, I'm not the ultimate cause. Scripture teaches the it is 100% impossible for any natural man to come to christ, unless Christ gives him faith.

That is how it appears to the natural man.


You are trying to make it appear as if this doctrine removes human responsibility, let us look and see what scripture says!

Romans 9:11-24
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Hab 1:6 For, lo, I (GOD) raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.

Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

​

God is NOT evil, but God DID create evil.

Isaiah 45:6-7
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

​

Scripture could make a lot of difference...but you haven't really shown me scripture which says I'm wrong.

lol, now you are trying an omnipotence paradox Those don't stand up to logic OR scripture.

Hey, I am by NOT a hyper Calvinist; look up hyper Calvinism before you apply it to me. And no, though it is possible to determine a person is unsaved, it is not possible for any man to ascertain the reprobate status of another unless God reveals it to him.

Yes

In the image of God? Yes
As God? No!!!

You said that my belief I was secure in Christ was "not based upon Scripture accurately understood."; so I quoted scripture as a response!

That has nothing to do with the question. You said that God wants to save every single person, so you have just two options. Everyone will go to heaven. Or God failed. Which is it?
You will probably answer "He loved us so he gave us liberty, freedom to choose sin if we wanted it". Well, there are two reasons why that doesn't work.
1. Because everyone who sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34) and if that were the case nobody would ever get saved.
2. Because true freedom is not freedom to sin; but rather freedom from sin!

You need to study total depravity...that will totally debunk this question because if God isn't in control his plan would really be messed up as nobody would ever get saved.

You are limiting God to the position of a parent who can't control the actions of his/her child.


Did you know that this exact objection has been recorded in scripture?

Romans 9:17-21
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

​

You need to read that last verse I quoted again...Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Did you hear that??? "Of the same lump"

Now you need to go read a few verses ahead of this...the potter makes "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"; it is much more than just trials!

Like I said, this does not destroy human responsibility

Can we use more scripture instead of just groundless arguments based upon faulty logic?
For example; we don’t need to assume that placing God as the ultimate cause removes the responsibility of man unless we have scripture to prove that (in this instance scripture proves exactly the opposite).

I'm a bit tired right now (Only got a couple hours of sleep last night) so I'm going to head to bed now, but I'll try to get back here later to answer any other objections which may arise!

Sincerely, Zach Doty

You just don't to get it!! Giving scripture would make no difference to you, this free will topic is throughout the entire bible, but you refuse to see it. This discussion is over. I am not the type to bounce my head against a brick wall. This is between you and the Lord. You are too negative to take in the truth. So be it!

 

[stumpjumper]

You just don't to get it!! Giving scripture would make no difference to you, this free will topic is throughout the entire bible, but you refuse to see it. This discussion is over. I am not the type to bounce my head against a brick wall. This is between you and the Lord. You are too negative to take in the truth. So be it!

Indeed as those whose ears are closed do not hear.

Here is a scriptual passage about human freedom though, too :

"God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel. He added his commandments and precepts. If thou wilt observe the commandments, and keep acceptable fidelity forever, they shall preserve thee. He hath set water and fire before thee; stretch forth thine hand for which thou wilt. Before man is life and death, good and evil; that which he shall choose shall be given him." (Sirach, ch. 15:14-17)

 

[stumpjumper]

There are many ways of "causing" something to occur .
ask yourself do Calvinists believe in a permissive decree concerning sin .............

Plantinga technically follows Reformed theology and he would probably have a heart attack if he read some of these threads here about who causes any sin or particular action...

It would certainly KO his "Free Will Defense" to the Problem of Evil

Imagine that! A Calvinist writing the best philosophical defense to the PoE in the past 20 years and getting defeated by internet Calvinists based upon the fact that we don't have free will

Makes me laugh and laugh....

 

[JimfromOhio]

Plantinga technically follows Reformed theology and he would probably have a heart attack if he read some of these threads here about who causes any sin or particular action...

It would certainly KO his "Free Will Defense" to the Problem of Evil

Imagine that! A Calvinist writing the best philosophical defense to the PoE in the past 20 years and getting defeated by internet Calvinists based upon the fact that we don't have free will

Makes me laugh and laugh....

Laugh?

God is in control and He will allow us to have freewill only if its according to His will. God KNEW Adam and Eve will sin so He did gave them a free will to sin. We have to understand that God controls everything including our freewill. The "freewill" is always subject to God's sovereignty and His divine freewill. God let's each of us chose whether they will be obedient to Him or not according to His will. The key is that God is ALWAYS in control even in our own freewill. God knows that people will use our "limited" freewill to reject or accept Jesus Christ. Those of us given the free gift of faith, we have escaped eternal punishment that we rightly deserved because of the mercy and grace of God, and we should be eternally grateful.

 

[linssue55]

Lets use scriptural proof for our debates instead of making false accusations.

I was raised an Arminian and defended it fiercely up until two months ago, but thank God he gave me "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" the good news of the gospel, the good news that salvation is of the Lord, completely! You are a tiny baby in Christ, you know nothing of the Lord yet. It takes years, decades to learn about the Lord. You need to find your right pastor teacher that know's the Original Languages so you can learn from him CORRECTLY. You have taken the bible, and have been reading it the last two month's, and coming with Your Own conclusions, based on your personal FEELINGS, traditions, and predjudices. This is very dangerous for the new believer. How do I know?, because right now you are on the wrong track, and this is absolutely the wrong way to get started.

The following is a quote from one of my folders...teachings from my right pastor teacher......
UNDERSTANDING THE TEXT

1. Make full use of commentaries, modern translations, paraphrases, etc. A fresh translation or paraphrase, read at length at a sitting, often gives one some fresh insight into the sense of a passage; though one needs to be sure that the writer’s interpretation is true to the original meaning. The detailed explanation of meaning which is provided in commentaries can also greatly enrich understanding.

2. Aim to discover the true meaning of the original text. This should be one’s immediate goal. Its pursuit is the more important because fancy easily runs riot. There is a real danger lest we see in Scripture not what is really there, but only a reflection of our own ideas, or a fancied endorsement of our own prejudices. The sense of Scripture is determined by the words. Therefore every single word matters; and the more so if we believe that divine inspiration extends to the words and has secured the selection of peculiarly appropriate ones. Special notice should be taken of the fact that some words acquire a special or new meaning in Scripture from scriptural usage alone, and in consequence of the progress and enlargement of the content of revelation. Where it is impossible to become expert in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew, it is possible, as a good second best, to go halfway, and to get nearer to a more accurate understanding by the we of the many aids specially prepared to help such limited study; e.g. an analytical concordance with transliteration, of the original word, in roman script.

3. Discover the significance to the original readers. Try to enter into the writer’s mind, his reaction to prevailing conditions, and his conscious purpose in writing. This involves acquaintance with the background and the historical setting. It is as a help to such understanding that this handbook is written.

4. Discover the character of the composition, e.g. whether history or allegory, prose or poetry, narrative or discourse, soliloquy or dialogue, etc. Do not necessarily rely upon chapter or other divisions which are no part of the original, and may sometimes be inappropriate. Seek to recognize the obvious and possibly declared connection of any statement or passage with what precedes or follows.

5. Discover the form of expression, e.g. whether literal or figurative, actual or metaphorical. Figurative terms should not be taken literally. Note whether statements are indicative or interrogative or imperative, definite or conditioned, actual or hypothetical. Aim to appreciate the allusions, figures and expressions which are related to the customs, circumstances, etc., of the original readers. Here the help of commentaries and of scholarly investigation is obviously necessary.

6. Recognize the character of divine revelation as given in and through history. God has spoken not just in words, but in and through the lives of men, and most of all in and through the life, death and resurrection of His Son incarnate. Therefore, what matters equally with the words of the prophets, and in the end more than the words, are the deeds or events which they interpret. Christianity is a historic revelation. Therefore, the original literal and historical meaning of Scripture is of fundamental importance.



ut about your five year old neice; Are you going to take the word of her above that of scripture?

Why? She is scripturally correct! She KNEW she did wrong when she was told to stay out of the candy. But her free will CHOSE to ignore the warning, and she ate.....from her own free will. She was disciplined. Like Adam, sound familar? She know's more about free will then you do! She KNEW her free will would get her into trouble. Smart kid!

You answered none of my last post questions??

 

[stumpjumper]

Laugh?

Most certainly. Internet philosophers are a dime a dozen...

God is in control and He will allow us to have freewill only if its according to His will. God KNEW Adam and Eve will sin so He did gave them a free will to sin. We have to understand that God controls everything including our freewill. The "freewill" is always subject to God's sovereignty and His divine freewill. God let's each of us chose whether they will be obedient to Him or not according to His will. The key is that God is ALWAYS in control even in our own freewill. God knows that people will use our "limited" freewill to reject or accept Jesus Christ. Those of us given the free gift of faith, we have escaped eternal punishment that we rightly deserved because of the mercy and grace of God, and we should be eternally grateful.

See. I'm sorry but you just are not correct. This is not even close to Plantinga's view of free will, and he certainly accepts God's sovereignty. Grace by faith used to mean a lot more than what I see here but whatever.

It's almost not worth arguing as I don't even agree with Plantinga on some of his theology but at least he knows what he's talking about...

ETA: I started a new thread on this issue because when I get offline I never know when I'll get back and its easier than scrolling through 10 pages...: http://www.christianforums.com/t2563805-free-will-and-gods-sovereignty.html

 

[JimfromOhio]

Most certainly. Internet philosophers are a dime a dozen...



See. I'm sorry but you just are not correct. This is not even close to Plantinga's view of free will, and he certainly accepts God's sovereignty. Grace by faith used to mean a lot more than what I see here but whatever.

It's almost not worth arguing as I don't even agree with Plantinga on some of his theology but at least he knows what he's talking about...

God governs the world (Isa. 40:22-24), the nations (Isa. 40:15-17), and us (Proverbs 16:9).

Job 37:15 Do you know how God controls the clouds and makes his lightning flash?

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Jeremiah 10:23 [ Jeremiah's Prayer ] I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

Ezekiel 7:5 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Disaster! An unheard-of disaster is coming.

 

[stumpjumper]

Jim

Responding with proof-text and no actual context, framework for interpretation, or dialogue means practically nothing. This is why its not even worth it

 

[GenemZ]

Indeed as those whose ears are closed do not hear.

Here is a scriptual passage about human freedom though, too :

"God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel. He added his commandments and precepts. If thou wilt observe the commandments, and keep acceptable fidelity forever, they shall preserve thee. He hath set water and fire before thee; stretch forth thine hand for which thou wilt. Before man is life and death, good and evil; that which he shall choose shall be given him." (Sirach, ch. 15:14-17)

Quoting the Apocrypha, are you?

Wow! Now, that's authoritive. But, you could have used the following, instead.

Deuteronomy 30:15-20 (New International Version)
"See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

God's sovereignty and man's free will are able to co-exist in God's plan. Yet, at times even mere men co-erce the desires of other men (police arrest a crimminal who desires not to be arrested). Likewise, there are times when God does co-erse the will of men. Yet, God is righteous in all he does. Men are not.

No one wants to die for doing wrong. Do they? And, for reasons known to God, at times he will over ride the will of men. But, for the most part, God allows men to exercize their free will. Why? There could be no final judgement if men's wills were always being co-erced! That's why! That! Is common sense. To think God will judge men for what he makes them do? Is insanity. Pure and simple. And Satan would love for that to be truth. For he wishes to blame God for his fall and get out of judgement. He's dillusional... and he passes it on for those willing to listen to his way of thinking. That's what it comes down to.

James 4:4 niv
"You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."

James was directing that to believers! They can choose not to go against God's will if they so desired. If men were not able to resist God's will? There would be no laws, nor a Bible.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[stumpjumper]

Quoting the Apocrypha, are you?

Wow! Now, that's authoritive. But, you could have used the following, instead.

Actually it is in my Canonized Catholic Bible and Luther accepted it in his debates with Erasmus so

God's sovereignty and man's free will are able to co-exist in God's plan. Yet, at times even mere men co-erce the desires of other men (police arrest a crimminal who desires not to be arrested). Likewise, there are times when God does co-erse the will of men. Yet, God is righteous in all he does. Men are not.

The problem is that many here conflate sovereignty with causation which should *never* be done...

No one wants to die for doing wrong. Do they? And, for reasons known to God, at times he will over ride the will of men. But, for the most part, God allows men to exercize their free will. Why? There could be no final judgement if men's wills were always being co-erced! That's why! That! Is common sense.

What you are doing is compromising on free will to accomadate your view of sovereingty with what you can see in the world and this does not mesh with the definition of free will.

If God could and would override our free will then you have a problem of gratuitous evil that you cannot answer.

If God overrides free will at His whim then he allows evil to exist at His whim as well.

Is your God sadistic?

To think God will judge men for what he makes them do? Is insanity. Pure and simple.

Well then you might want to address your above paragraph

Grace and peace to you as well....

 

[sawdust]

There are many ways of "causing" something to occur .
ask yourself do Calvinists believe in a permissive decree concerning sin .............

To cause something is to be the originator of something. To say God allowed me to sin is not the same as saying He caused me to sin.

Let me ask the question again. Did my sin originate with God?

peace

 

[GenemZ]

To cause something is to be the originator of something. To say God allowed me to sin is not the same as saying He caused me to sin.

Let me ask the question again. Did my sin originate with God?

peace

The concept (definition) of sin did. But, not sin itself.

If God did not define sin, we could not know sin. God had to determine what actions constitute sin. Nothing that exists, exists without God willing it to exist. Yet, what God wills to exist, does not mean its his will that what exists, exists as it does. Hitler existed. God willed that Hitler exist. Yet, it was not God's will that Hitler be as he was.

1 Timothy 2:3-5 niv
" This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

First, it was Mary Worship.
Now... its

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[sawdust]

What you are doing is compromising on free will to accomadate your view of sovereingty with what you can see in the world and this does not mesh with the definition of free will.

If God could and would override our free will then you have a problem of gratuitous evil that you cannot answer.

If God overrides free will at His whim then he allows evil to exist at His whim as well.

Is your God sadistic?

Well, you've lost me.

How does it automatically follow that God is sadistic if He decides under certain circumstances not to allow a man to enact his choice? Considering what men are capable of I would've thought that to be a merciful act not a sadistic one.

And how do you define freewill? My own definition (based on the teaching I have received) would be to say:
"Freewill is the God given authority a man has over his own soul."

peace