God forseeing Adam and Eve

[stumpjumper]

I have no idea how you got that. Its really an incoherent thought, as is.

I got it from your words on the last page:

How could God judge sadists if they are never allowed to discover what it is that they lust for in their hearts?

Besides, God must allow the sadists at times to have their way, so that the fallen angels can see what it is they themselves have been condemned for. When someone with a sadistic streak gets saved? And, accepts forgiveness? The accusations that demons throw at this person of how unworthy he is for thinking he can be forgiven, is like putting a noose around their own necks! As they judge, so shall they be judged! For they do the very thing that they condemn in the forgiven believer!

God is using the sins and evils of believers to get the condemned angels to condemn themselves when they see a believer with a weakness that he accepts in peace, total forgiveness for.

I think my paraphrase is close to what you wrote..

But, this much I can say. Its to cause fallen angels who live in denial to condemn themselves. And, in doing so. It vindicates God's judgement that is upon them by using their own words, and thinking, against them. When they condemn evil in a redeemed man, they are admitting they are worthy of condemnation. For they are evil!!! If their hero, Satan, did not trip up Adam and the woman, there would be no evil in mankind.

How does your above paragraph not convey the message that we have free will so God can judge and condemn fallen angels?

Also, God allows for free will in men expressing sin and evil so that men who are to be, can be condemned. If men's actions were always suppressed by God? They could not know that they were a sinner! If that happened? How could they know they need a Savior?

When men perform evil they are , as it were, walking in the unholy spirit. For they are manifesting and reflecting back to the fallen angels what they are in their own hearts.

God's plan is a double edged sword. He is dealing with men and angels simultaneously. Both the fallen, and the elect.

If there was no freedom, there would be no sin to express. You seem to be saying that we have free will to expose our evil yet our evilness comes from our free will acts of disobeyong God. I'm sure you will say that this is not what you wrote but it seems pretty clear to me.

We sin because God created us as free, rational and subjective beings....

 

[stumpjumper]

Tell me something? How do you handle someone who completely misunderstands you? Yet, keeps on trying to show you are wrong?

I am actually trying to understand you and the only way to do so is to show you what I disagree with in what you wrote.

It's called an informal debate.

What do you do in that case? I would like to know.

In Christ, GeneZ

What you and I wrote is there to see. If I have completely misconstrued what you wrote fine, my bad, but I still see you saying we have free will so that God can condemn and expose our evils and fallen angels ect...

God Bless

 

[linssue55]

Those who do not believe never had their name written in the book of life.


Those who are saved, yet fail miserably in fulfilling God's will, will have their "title" blotted out. The title is one of authority to be granted to believers who overcome. The tile is given along with the rewards. Those who fail to do God's will are still saved. They will enter heaven with their name in the book. But, after they lose all rewards at their evaluation, then the name/title is blotted out. In contrast. Unbelievers enter and find not that their names were blotted out, but that their names were NEVER written in. There is the difference!

Revelation 17:8 niv
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

It can be translated.....

" has absolutely not been written in the book of life." (rbt)

Unbelievers were never written in to begin with. Believers who are losers, will have their "title/name" which was to be given, blotted out. One can not blot out what was absolutely not written in the first place!

Revelation 3:5 niv
"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."

Not all believers overcome. Many take the "broad and wide" way, and will face destruction of all blessing-rewards God has stored for them. These will have their names blotted out. But, only after entering Heaven. The evaluation comes next. Then, their name is blotted out. The Greek word translated "name" is also meaning title. In the Royal Family each believer in Eternity past was assigned a title of royalty to reign with Christ. Losers will loss all rewards. Along with it is lost their title that was planned in love to be given.


Hope that helps clarify this area that causes much confusion for legalists. Those who think we can lose our salvation.





Ditto, RMA!" Grace and peace, GeneZ

I hope this image works?We'll see.....if not I will send a link.



[FONT=times new roman, Times New Roman, Times]Click on the image to view or print without navigation bars and borders. After viewing, press your browser's BACK button to return to this page.

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[linssue55]

Of course I believe in free will. I just don't follow this fallen angel/demon reasoning and using freedom to bring man to judgement...

Ok I wasn't sure? God not only uses angels, he also uses us as examples. Remember He knew EVERYTHING in eternity past, and knowing all of this, His plan was devised to show His corrections of those who disobeyed Him by using others as an example in fullfilling that plan. We have everyday examples of history right before our eyes. What is the old saying? "We learn nothing from history, and are destined to make the same mistakes"! But God is in control of history, using His predestined plan, knowing ALL before hand.

The sun the moon, the star's, the elephant, the plant, were not made in the image of God. They do not have self consciencenss like we do, or like the angels do. We are unique above all the animals of the world. We have the ability to look into the mirror, and say....."that is me, my reflection".....no other creature has this same self conscienceness, and animals do have their own type of free will. Free will to kill for food, to mate, etc. etc..God also gave them a unique ability to instinct.

God in His marvelous genius "Worked everything together for good", with His omniscience. He uses us as examples, not only to the angels, but also as a frame of reference for all mankind. We learn! Or at least we should.

 

[GenemZ]

I hope this image works?We'll see.....if not I will send a link.



[FONT=times new roman, Times New Roman, Times]Click on the image to view or print without navigation bars and borders. After viewing, press your browser's BACK button to return to this page.

[/FONT]

For reasons given by the Scriptures I quoted from. One verse was even exegeted by RBT! That those who do not believe in Christ were never written in the book to begin with.

Its only believers who can have their name blotted out. And, that means it is the removal of their title which was to be given them.

The teaching on the meaning of the word "name = title" was also exegeted by RBT. Its because of his excellent teaching that we are free to see truths that may have been missed even by the one giving an accurate translation. It happens.

RBT has said he had no problem with disagreement, as long as the disagreement was objective. In this matter I have presented my case. And, was based upon the very things he has translated.


Revelation 17:8 niv
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

It can be translated.....(by RBT, no less)

"In fact, the inhabitants of the earth whose name has absolutely not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world."[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2][/FONT]
It would not be translated "absolutely not been written", if at one time it had been written (and then blotted out).

It means, never had been written to begin with.

That point was missed in interpretation. Yet, the translation was accurate! All names of believers were written in at the foundation of the world. And, others did not have their names written at the foundations of the world. In time God must reveal to those who are condemned why their names were not written. He must allow for their wills to be free to express what's in their hearts, so they can discover about themselves what God always knew was to be there!

"And I saw the dead (unbelievers), the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds (works). "

If the name was blotted out, it had to have been written at one time! Those names which are blotted out were loser believers. That chart indicates that they would have their names transferred over to the book of works. Those books (works) is only assigned to the unbeliever who will be judged by his works. Inconsistency!

Please, read again what I wrote and realize that over the years RBT has on occassion corrected himself, which is a good sign of teaching integrity. Its those who refuse to admit their error that have a lack of integrity.

Now.....

Not all believers overcome. Do they? If not? Their name (title) is blotted out. That would mean they lose their salvation if that chart is correct!

If the chart you showed was accurate in explaining that, it would indicate that those believers who are losers and fail to overcome? It would mean that they would have their name transferred after being blotted out, and they would lose their salvation. Its confusing, I agree. But, by the grace given me I see what I see.

Revelation 20:12 (New American Standard Bible)
"And I saw the dead (unbelievers) the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds (works)."

Believers are not judged by our works! Works are judged to see if they can equal what is required by God to gain entrance into his Kingdom. The work of Christ on the Cross is the only work we are required to accept! The only one acceptable to God. All the unbeliever's works will fall short of what is required! They will be sent to the Lake of Fire. The only work (singular) acceptable onto salvation to God, is belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It says, that the unbeliever was only judged from the books. Not, "the book." Their names were never written in the book of life. Only in the books of works.

One can not blot out what was never written. That's the point I am making. And, even RBT's own exegesis points to the fact that the names were never written to begin with. Only a believer can have his title blotted out when he loses all rewards at his evaluation!

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (New International Version)
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

That does not speak of purgatory. Its the works that will be tested by fire. Not the believer!

The one who suffers loss will have his name blotted out. No title will be given him. He will not reign the nations with Christ!

Revelation 2:26
"To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations."

We must be careful not to do with our pastor what the RCC does with their popes. All men are fallible at some point. Being free to see that, keeps us honest before God! And, answerable to only God!

No church is 100% correct in all it teaches. Its being able to be corrected and finding the truth that was missing which pleases God. Yet, it must be done in love and respect! If we went around telling others that our pastor is always right, and they need to listen to only him? Then, if we are ridiculed. It would be warranted!





Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[linssue55]

For reasons given by the Scriptures I quoted from. One verse was even exegeted by RBT! That those who do not believe in Christ were never written in the book to begin with.

Its only believers who can have their name blotted out. And, that means it is the removal of their title which was to be given them.

The teaching on the meaning of the word "name = title" was also exegeted by RBT. Its because of his excellent teaching that we are free to see truths that may have been missed even by the one giving an accurate translation. It happens.

RBT has said he had no problem with disagreement, as long as the disagreement was objective. In this matter I have presented my case. And, was based upon the very things he has translated.



Grace and peace, GeneZ

Yes, you are correct in what you are saying, and my mind can and does get muddled at times. If I am mistaken on this? I could care less about my feelings on being corrected, my feelings are nothing, I just want to be correct on my doctrines, for in truth is how I praise the Lord, and He is first regardless of how I feel about it.

It was probally 20 years ago when I heard the tape on this, it was as if I heard it yesturday, was exactly as the image states. Now if Thieme had changed his mind on this by finding another doctrine that corrected his first, then I missed it. Now I am not trying to be agrumentative on this whatsoever, if I am wrong I WANT to be corrected. After thousands of hours of tapes and notes, things can become lost.

But I distinctly remember Thieme saying all persons name "Start Out' In the book of life, and upon their death (unbeliever) their name is blotted out. This he said according to God, that ALL of the human race had the "Opportunity" to believe in the Lord. Whereas he said, when the unbeliever came to the Lord at their final judgement, the Lord can show them proof that from the moment they were born, they had equal opportunity to believe in Him, that the Lord gave them every opportunity, and still they rejected Him. We all started off the same, with no discrimination. For they (unbelievers) will try everything to get the Lord to change His mind about their eternal hell. By God showing them their name in the book, with equal opportunity for all, they can only blame themselves, they will have no foot to stand on in pleading their case.

The illustration show's this, the condemnation of the unbeliver in the book of life, then upon their death they were blotted out. Now I know all about us (believers) and the book of works, where we may or may not get the rewards, and no sin is mentioned, etc. I undertsand all of your verses. Now I am sitting here scratching my head, asking myself did I hear correctly what I heard? You know the feeling? With my brain sometimes sure you bet. But this is very fresh in my mind. I am going to have to dig through my notes, and see if I have the exegesis foot notes on this? Could you be thinking about the Lamb's Book of Life? I did find something amongst my folders, and notes, which I will post. I have never been good with verse addresses, but the messages stick with me pretty good. The ONLY thing that is tripping me up is the "Blotting Out", all else is secure. This from some of my notes, this is what I heard from Thieme on the tape 20 years ago, and if he corrected himself later, I need to get updated......


THE TWO BOOKS OF LIFE VIEW

The Book of Life and the Lamb’s Book of Life. The major difference between the two is that the Book of Life contains the names of all living people, whereas the Lamb’s Book of Life includes only the names of those who have received eternal life from Jesus (the Lamb). One’s name may be blotted out from the Book of Life, but not from the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Once a person has entered the world, their name is automatically recorded in the Book of Life. If, by the time of their death, they have not called upon Jesus Christ for salvation, their name will be removed from the Book of Life. If they have accepted Christ and His forgiveness of sins, their name will remain in the Book of Life and be indelibly recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life, never to be erased. Their entrance into heaven is guaranteed (Revelation 21:27).

Those who appear before the Great White Throne judgment all died without accepting Christ’s payment for their sins, so their works must be judged according to the law. This is where the books of man’s deeds are opened. The inevitable outcome is that each person will be found guilty, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). However, before the sentence is pronounced, the Lamb’s Book of Life will be opened, but of course, the names of unbelievers will not be there. Finally, as one last double-check, the Book of Life will be opened. But once again, the names of unbelievers will not be found.

“Anyone not found written in the Book of Life [will be] cast into the lake of fire” (Rev­elation 20:15). This verse emphasizes the importance of making sure your name remains in the Book of Life. God’s will is that none “should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). To prevent your name from being blotted out from the Book of Life, you must make sure your name appears in the Lamb’s Book of Life. To do that, simply accept Christ’s payment for your sins, invite Him into your heart, and ask Him to be the Lord and Savior of your life (Luke 10:20).

RMA.....Linda

 

[linssue55]

If the name was blotted out, it had to have been written at one time! Those names which are blotted out were loser believers.
I have never heard of us believers names ever being blotted out. The word UNbeliever is under the X's.


That chart indicates that they would have their names transferred over to the book of works. Those books (works) is only assigned to the unbeliever who will be judged by his works. Inconsistency!
Of course it is inconsistent. Now look at the chart again, the left book, in the far left column, with the X's are UNbelievers. Hard to see but the word but it is there. These unbelievers are tranferred to the book of works, and judged. It say's the same under the books. I got this from Berachah's site, and this is what I was taught long ago. We (believers) are left IN the book of life, and then transferred to the Lamb's Book of Life, never to be removed.


Please, read again what I wrote and realize that over the years RBT has on occassion corrected himself, which is a good sign of teaching integrity. Its those who refuse to admit their error that have a lack of integrity.
Of course. Thank goodness I am a student, and not a teacher. If he had corrected himself on this in later years, then I need to get the exegesis on it.


Not all believers overcome. Do they? If not? Their name (title) is blotted out. That would mean they lose their salvation if that chart is correct!
The chart is correct. The blotting out (X's) are Unbelievers, not believers. I have never heard of any doctrine of any believer ever being blotted out.


If the chart you showed was accurate in explaining that, it would indicate that those believers who are losers and fail to overcome? It would mean that they would have their name transferred after being blotted out,
All +R's on the left book are believers, and none are blotted out, as you can see. The Unbeliever's with "none" credits in their account, are -R, as you can see.


and they would lose their salvation. Its confusing, I agree. But, by the grace given me I see what I see. Me too. I did not draw it, it's from the site. Under the X's are Unbelievers, which makes the charts (also book of works) absolutely correct.

Your verse here is referring to the Lamb's book of life (I will do some research on this, for it doesn't specify which book), but if the chart is correct, which I believe it is, then this verse can only refer to the Lamb's book, which in turn means the chart and verse are both correct, for no unbeliever will ever be written in the Lamb's book.........I know, we are both here to just confuse one another as a test, no one will ever tell me the Lord doesn't have a sense of humor.......lol.

"In fact, the inhabitants of the earth whose name has absolutely not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world."

 

[cygnusx1]

Is He the cause of all those who find your way of thinking on God's sovereignty to be seen as erroneous?

Grace and peace, GeneZ

of course .............

have you ever believed in a causeless event ?

bare permission is impossible.

 

[GenemZ]

If the name was blotted out, it had to have been written at one time! Those names which are blotted out were loser believers.
I have never heard of us believers names ever being blotted out. The word UNbeliever is under the X's.

I heard a lesson not long ago explaining how the Greek word commonly translated "name," was also interchangable with "title."

That some will have our "titles" blotted out. I believe it is from the Revelation series. That those who deny the Lord in time, will be denied the priviledge of reigning with him. All those who reign will be given a title God chose for us before the foundation of the world. And, I have also heard taught what you are telling me. So, I think there was a correction made along the way that you have not caught yet. Here is one example of how it works.....

Revelation 19:16 niv
"On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Lord's name is Christ Jesus.

But, one of his "titles" is, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS! The Greek used the word "name" and "title" interchangeably. It was explained that our titles will be blotted out of we refuse to grow in grace and truth.

2 Timothy 2:12 nasb
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;If we deny Him, He also will deny us."

We will be denied rewards and our title if we deny Him in time.

That chart indicates that they would have their names transferred over to the book of works. Those books (works) is only assigned to the unbeliever who will be judged by his works. Inconsistency!

I think that was kept as is, but corrected at a later date.

Of course it is inconsistent. Now look at the chart again, the left book, in the far left column, with the X's are UNbelievers. Hard to see but the word but it is there. These unbelievers are tranferred to the book of works, and judged. It say's the same under the books. I got this from Berachah's site, and this is what I was taught long ago. We (believers) are left IN the book of life, and then transferred to the Lamb's Book of Life, never to be removed.

I suggest you get the Revelation series and ask for the teaching on this part of Scripture. I believe it was in the 1981 series. I have seen over the years RBT come out and say we are to rip up our notes from an earlier teaching, because he just learned something new to make a correction. That has only happened a very few times. But I respected him for it, highly. I guess, this is one of them. For I believe I have heard him teach it both ways. I think the way you got it was from the 60's era. The more recent teaching states its our titles that are blotted out. We will be denied royal authority in Christ.

Please, read again what I wrote and realize that over the years RBT has on occassion corrected himself, which is a good sign of teaching integrity. Its those who refuse to admit their error that have a lack of integrity.
Of course. Thank goodness I am a student, and not a teacher. If he had corrected himself on this in later years, then I need to get the exegesis on it.

It may have been around the time he was teaching on the Order of the Morning Star in Revelation (1981). I was amazed (and relieved) to hear it.

Not all believers overcome. Do they? If not? Their name (title) is blotted out. That would mean they lose their salvation if that chart is correct!
The chart is correct. The blotting out (X's) are Unbelievers, not believers. I have never heard of any doctrine of any believer ever being blotted out.

.

When you are shown its our title (not name) blotted out, it begins to all fit together. And, the passages I did show you that the names were not written in at the foundation. So? How can what is not written be blotted out? This has caused many a theologian to tear his hair out. But, the Colonel saw that the issue was about titles to be given, not simply our name as we are now known.

Revelation 2:17 niv
' He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'

We will no longer be known by our current names if we overcome. We will be given our new title. Just like the Lord's title is Lord of Lords, King of Kings. We will receive a new name that will be between us and the Lord.

If the chart you showed was accurate in explaining that, it would indicate that those believers who are losers and fail to overcome? It would mean that they would have their name transferred after being blotted out,
All +R's on the left book are believers, and none are blotted out, as you can see. The Unbeliever's with "none" credits in their account, are -R, as you can see.

That was the working solution until the concept of "title" was realized later on. At, least, that is how I am seeing it. I have heard old messages where it was said that the sin nature resides in the soul and flesh. But, later on explained that it only resides in the flesh, yet influences the soul. If you only read old material, or heard old tapes, you would not know about this correction he made. I knew someone who went to seminary and received his PhD. He told me about two or three times he had been aware of such kinds of corrections being made. So, I had no problem with it when I saw this one.

and they would lose their salvation. Its confusing, I agree. But, by the grace given me I see what I see.
Me too. I did not draw it, it's from the site. Under the X's are Unbelievers, which makes the charts (also book of works) absolutely correct.

It is correct in its presentation of what the books represent. But, the interpretation was still in the works it appears when that chart was devised. Or, it was simply created from older messages and never checked .

Your verse here is referring to the Lamb's book of life (I will do some research on this, for it doesn't specify which book), but if the chart is correct, which I believe it is, then this verse can only refer to the Lamb's book, which in turn means the chart and verse are both correct, for no unbeliever will ever be written in the Lamb's book.........I know, we are both here to just confuse one another as a test, no one will ever tell me the Lord doesn't have a sense of humor.......lol.

"In fact, the inhabitants of the earth whose name has absolutely not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world."

The book of life is singular. Works are multiple books. Unbelievers are written in the books of works, only.

If you agree? We can just agree to blot this out of our memories.

I understand the way you are thinking. And, I am so grateful for having learned from the later teachings. Revelation is a great series. I have been listening to it for several years now and am not yet near finished.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[sawdust]

Genez is following federal theology (from what I can tell)

Have no idea what that is so I couldn't say.

and that man is condemned already because of the fall etc. I don't follow that and believe that all mankind exists under a state of grace.

Well of course mankind is under a state of grace. How do you think any of us get saved? The Lord pours out His grace upon all men because He wants all to be saved but the grace reveals truth and not all men want truth. And the truth is we are sinners! Born that way, thanks to Adam, and led that way thanks to our own stupidity, ignorance and evil desires. In confrontation with the Lord's Holiness we stand condemned.

It makes a big difference when it comes to man's relation to God.

Sure does! Heavenly eternity or Firey Damnation. The latter being the revelation to both men and angels of the just condemnation of sin that leads to the evil they consumed themselves with. "They loved the darkness more than they loved the light."
The grace we are under is not some "candy being thrown out" in order to entice us into a relationship with God. With grace comes Truth! Jesus Christ is the Truth! There is nothing in creation more valuable.

It is the most awesome position we have been placed in. Filled with the absolute highest of responsibilty and privelege. Every believer has been given the opportunity to sit at the right hand of Christ. Yet sadly not all will.

I understand Barth very well but I have absolutely no idea what Genez is talking about to be honest

I'll take your word that you understand Barth. But if you have no idea what Genez is talking about, why are you arguing? Or should I say "what" are you arguing? For at the end of the day you can only be arguing you're own assumptions of what he may mean. I've seen people do that often. I have noticed it usually only leads to frustration for both parties.

peace

 

[dunkel]

He did know, you are looking at the short term. By allowing it to happen and demonstrating his love for his people through the sacrifice of his only son, he is truly demonstrating his glory.

So he made us, knowing we would be sinful, so that he can show us his love by forgiving us? Why not just forgive Adam and Eve in the first place? Or change the rules from the beginning so that they were more in accordance with the human nature that he gave us?