Free Will

[Epiphoskei]

Yea, if only those schismatic 30,000 denominations would come back to the Apostolic Church as one united body..

How often must we ask you to stop spreading this patantly false nonsense propoganda as if truth.

 

[nobdysfool]

The thing is we don't have to go through those bounderies to accept Christ. His yoke is easy and he is attainable by everyone if they so chose. Thus free will is 100% applied to Christs gift.

Sounds all warm and fuzzy, but you offer no proof that this is even possible.

Yea, if only those schismatic 30,000 denominations would come back to the Apostolic Church as one united body..

When will that "Apostolic Church" abandon the errors that caused them to go out from them in the first place? When will Trent be revoked and disavowed? When will the Church acknowledge the sins that caused men of conscience to leave a corrupted body in the first place? The emperor has no clothes.

 

[jmacvols]

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Good Day, Jmacvols
See: http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson26.htm
To which translation do you refer?
τούτους

"Them" is plual yes accusative case.




It is a genitive sigular, not τις indefinite (certain) pronoun.

I saw nothing in the link you provided that says the pronoun "whom" can never be plural.
The NIV, ESV, NASB, RSV translate Rom 8:29 as "For those whom He foreknew"
"WHOM" can and is used as a plural pronoun. Face it, God foreknew every single person that has ever lived on this earth. God is omnicient, He knows everything.

You are holding both sides of a contridiction. Something can not be "free" if it is restricted by boundaries. Thus you like me, we agree it is not "free".

It is free to operate within the boundaries set. God has given man the choice of heaven or hell and man can freely choose which he desires

mmm, seems you have misuderstood some one. Source from a calvinist where you got that idea.

You may want to spend some time in the ask a "calvinst" fourm.

See below.

they are sinners, they are sinners because they are the fallen sons of Adam.

God only saves sinners, some how you have forgot this.

God condems them for what they are and justly so. What is amazing that he chose to save any body, when is not obligated to do so a pure exersize of his glory and freedom.

Above you say I do not understand Calvinism.
Does not Calvinism say that before the world began God has already chosen who will be saved and who will be lost? You say God saves only sinners. Well before the world began no one existed, no one had done good or evil, everyone was alike, no one was a sinner. SInce everyone was alike before the world began, how did God go about choosing whom he would saved and whom He would cause to be lost? If I am one God did not choose to be part of the "elect" before the world began, then I am lost without any hope or chance of salvation. I am lost not because my own sin, I am lost due to God's fault for not choosing me. If this were true, it would be enough to make an atheists out of me.

Before they had done good/evil Easu I hated for the purpose of my election to stand. Will that which was created say to the creator why have you made me this way, should we think there is a hint of unjust(ness) with God?

Oh silly (foolish) man.... does God not have (freedom) the right

Paul addressed these questions, far better than I can.

In Him,

Bill

God choosing Jacob over Esau had nothing to with salvation, it had to do with whom Israel would come into the world thru. God saying He hated (loved less) Esau and loved Jacob was said centuries after both had already died. It was not said about the individuals themselves, but the people that came from them, God loved Israel and hated the Edomites. God did not randomly choose Jacob, for He foreknew Jacob would obey and Esau would not, Gen 25:23.

 

[Renton405]

Good Day, Jmacvols

You are confusing will with agency.

Class of people are made up of sigular people, difference with out distiction.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Notice how it says who he foreknew???

The people he saw in foreknowledge he predestined. By foreknowledge..

 

[Renton405]

How often must we ask you to stop spreading this patantly false nonsense propoganda as if truth.

ok, 20,000 denomination??

Even 5,000 is terrible..

 

[Easystreet]

Yes, we have free will. But our will never freely chooses Christ until God first works regeneration in us.

You TR folks (Tulip Religionist) are constantly harping on regeneration.

Define what regeneration means to you in one clear defenitive conscice statement.

8. And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary - Cite This Source
Regeneration
only found in Matt. 19:28 and Titus 3:5. This word literally means a "new birth." The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Matt. 19:28 the word is equivalent to the "restitution of all things" (Acts 3:21). In Titus 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1 John 3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17); being born again (John 3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2:6); a being quickened (2:1, 5). This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4). As to the nature of the change, it consists in the implanting of a new principle or disposition in the soul; the impartation of spiritual life to those who are by nature "dead in trespasses and sins." The necessity of such a change is emphatically affirmed in Scripture (John 3:3; Rom. 7:18; 8:7-9; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1; 4:21-24).
I think it is fare to say that the term regeneration with respect to the here and now is synonymous with “born again”, “conversion”, “salvation”, etc.
Scripture is extremely clear that this follows repentance and faith in Christ.

 

[Renton405]

Sounds all warm and fuzzy, but you offer no proof that this is even possible.



When will that "Apostolic Church" abandon the errors that caused them to go out from them in the first place? When will Trent be revoked and disavowed? When will the Church acknowledge the sins that caused men of conscience to leave a corrupted body in the first place? The emperor has no clothes.

Warm and fuzzy compared to the cold hard sterile doctrine of Calvinism, yes...Proof? The proof is in Christs crucifiction. If our brains are capable of hearing the gospel and about Jesus Christ(which is possible with 100% of all people) then we all have the choice and the gift to be saved.

He who would place the reason of predestination either in man alone or in God alone would inevitably be led into heretical conclusions about eternal election

Trent was to combat the heresies and protestant errors that were going on at that time. One of them eing predestination. As the counsil says:

if any one shall say that the regenerated and justified man is bound as a matter of faith to believe that he is surely of the number of the predestined, let him be anathema

CHAPTER XII.

That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.

No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.

We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema

If any one saith, that it is not in man’s power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.

Council of Trent, Canon VI of the Decrees on Justification

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1037

Because God predestines no one to hell, Catholics believe He gives His Grace, through Christ, to everyone and calls every one, no exception, to salvation.

This condemnation was perfectly justified, because the heresy of Predestinarianism, in direct opposition to the clearest texts of Scripture, denied the universality of God's salvific will as well as of redemption through Christ (cf. Wisdom 11:24 sq.; 1 Timothy 2:1 sq.), nullified God's mercy towards the hardened sinner (Ezekiel 33:11; Romans 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), did away with the freedom of the will to do good or evil, and hence with the merit of good actions and the guilt of the bad, and finally destroyed the Divine attributes of wisdom, justice, veracity, goodness, and sanctity

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men.



Titus 2:11

Trent was to help re-unify the church. Just as Christ said, a nation that is divided cannot stand.

Men of conscious? Schismatics?

He did not predestine before He foreknew, but for those whose merits He foresaw, He predestined the reward

 

[Jipsah]

It is free to operate within the boundaries set. God has given man the choice of heaven or hell and man can freely choose which he desires

Yep. And left to our own corrupt devices, we choose perdition.

Above you say I do not understand Calvinism.

That much is obvious.

Does not Calvinism say that before the world began God has already chosen who will be saved and who will be lost?

Those who'll be saved, yeah. The "double predestination" thing is bogus. Those not chosen are left to their "free will", and will get to abide their own choices.

You say God saves only sinners.

As opposed to?

how did God go about choosing whom he would saved and whom He would cause to be lost?

Height.

If I am one God did not choose to be part of the "elect" before the world began, then I am lost without any hope or chance of salvation. I am lost not because my own sin, I am lost due to God's fault for not choosing me.

Nope, if you're lost, you're lost as a result of your own choices, made of your own Free Will. You sin, after all, of your own Free Will. God never forced you. It's pretty ridiculous to say that if you chose the path of destruction that it's somehow God's fault for not stopping you.

If this were true, it would be enough to make an atheists out of me.

So now you're gonna use your Free Will to deny God, eh? OK, it's all up to you, after all.

God choosing Jacob over Esau had nothing to with salvation

It had to do with God choosing, which is why St. Paul used it as an illustration. God hated Esau even though to all outward appearances Esau was a better guy than Jacob. Let's face it, Jake was a pretty nasty piece of work. Yet God chose him instead of his nicer brother, even if we can't figure out why. (I hope that doesn't strenghten your desire to turn atheist, but Free Will uber alles.)

He foreknew Jacob would obey and Esau would not, Gen 25:23.

That verse doesn't say diddly about Jake obeying and Esau not. If you're gonna proof-text, then at least try and make the texts you use relevant.

 

[Epiphoskei]

ok, 20,000 denomination??

Even 5,000 is terrible..

If we use the definition of theological definition, there are no more than a dozen or so. If we use the definition of beurocratic schism, my own home church is a denomination unto itself.

If we use the right definition, that of the full communion of believers, there is one body and one spirit.

 

[Renton405]

Yep. And left to our own corrupt devices, we choose perdition.

How is this possible if we are predestined??


Do you believe God sends people to hell??

That is actually a good question that you ignored. How did God go about chosing a pre-elect. If it wasn't foreknowledge then what was it then?? And if it wasn't foreknowledge why would God put us on earth??


The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this, that negative reprobation merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven while positive reprobation means the absolute will to condemn to hell. In other words, those who are reprobated merely negatively are numbered among the non-predestined from all eternity; those who are reprobated positively are directly predestined to hell from all eternity and have been created for this very purpose. It was Calvin who elaborated the repulsive doctrine that an absolute Divine decree from all eternity positively predestined part of mankind to hell and, in order to obtain this end effectually, also to sin. The Catholic advocates of an unconditional reprobation evade the charge of heresy only by imposing a twofold restriction on their hypothesis: that the punishment of hell can, in time, be inflicted only on account of sin, and from all eternity can be decreed only on account of foreseen malice, while sin itself is not to be regarded as the sheer effect of the absolute Divine will, but only as the result of God's permission; that the eternal plan of God can never intend a positive reprobation to hell, but only a negative reprobation, that is to say, an exclusion from heaven. These restrictions are evidently demanded by the formulation of the concept itself, since the attributes of Divine sanctity and justice must be kept inviolate . Consequently, if we consider that God's sanctity will never allow Him to will sin positively even though He foresees it in His permissive decree with infallible certainty, and that His justice can foreordain, and in time actually inflict, hell as a punishment only by reason of the sin foreseen, we understand the definition of eternal reprobation given by Peter Lombard

 

[Epiphoskei]

How is this possible if we are predestined??

Further explain your objection. God predestines to salvation, and man, left to his own devices, chooses hell. I see no logical disconnect here.

Do you believe God sends people to hell??

The doctrine of double-election is debated within reformed theology, but Romans 9:21-22 appear to teach it however.

 

[Renton405]

Further explain your objection. God predestines to salvation, and man, left to his own devices, chooses hell. I see no logical disconnect here.


The doctrine of double-election is debated within reformed theology, but Romans 9:21-22 appear to teach it however.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

That dosen't teach that God sends people to hell! what a horrible interperatation of scripture. It simply states that the creation God makes can be both honorable or dishonourable...It makes no mention of people being predestined to hell.. And Calvinists claim they follow scripture so closely..

 

[Epiphoskei]

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

That dosen't teach that God sends people to hell! what a horrible interperatation of scripture. It simply states that the creation God makes can be both honorable or dishonourable...It makes no mention of people being predestined to hell.. And Calvinists claim they follow scripture so closely..

Absolutely it does; you once again cut the verse off where it was beneficial for you:
"Now if God wants to demonstrate his wrath and reveal his power, can't he be extremely patient with the objects of his wrath that are made for destruction? Can't he also reveal his glorious riches to the objects of his mercy that he has prepared ahead of time for Glory"
We have riches and mercy and glory. These are salvific terms. Destruction therefore is the parallel, a term of condemnation to hell. This is twice in one day you've cut a verse off right before the crux of the calvinistic argument. It's "vessels predestined for destruction," not "vessels of dishonor"- that's II Timothy. Similar concept, that of types of vessels, but totally different points in both verses, plus the fact that the vessels here are unmalliable, and the vessels in II Timothy can become vessels of honor.

 

[beloved57]

There is no true gospel if double predestination is not proclaimed, for grace shines it best from that most solemn truth..

 

[nobdysfool]

There is no true gospel if double predestination is not proclaimed, for grace shines it best from that most solemn truth..

That is not a view held by the majority of Calvinists. In reality, it is a Hyper-Calvinistic view, if taken to the extreme. I disavow a supralapsarian view of theology that you hold, and affirm the Infralapsarian view, which is the view of scripture..

 

[beloved57]

That is not a view held by the majority of Calvinists. In reality, it is a Hyper-Calvinistic view, if taken to the extreme. I disavow a supralapsarian view of theology that you hold, and affirm the Infralapsarian view, which is the view of scripture..

I hold the biblical view of scripture and the gospel, in fact the book romans is the gospel of christ rom 1: 16 and 17 proves that, and all that is written especially chapters 1-11 contains the whole counsel of the Gospel ad paul stated in acts 20


24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

If you do not think romans 9 teach the double predestination portion of the gospel, then you are decieved my friend....

 

[nobdysfool]

I hold the biblical view of scripture and the gospel, in fact the book romans is the gospel of christ rom 1: 16 and 17 proves that, and all that is written especially chapters 1-11 contains the whole counsel of the Gospel ad paul stated in acts 20


24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

If you do not think romans 9 teach the double predestination portion of the gospel, then you are decieved my friend....

Then we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[jmacvols]

Height.

This one answer pretty much sums Calvinism up.
In other words, you don't know why before the world began God chose some to be saved and sentenced the rest to hell giving them no hope or chance of salvation.
There's a gaping whole in your theology you cannot explain. It makes God unjust and discriminatory..

 

[nobdysfool]

This one answer pretty much sums Calvinism up.
In other words, you don't know why before the world began God chose some to be saved and sentenced the rest to hell giving them no hope or chance of salvation.

Isn't that God's Right, being the Creator and all? Why do you find fault with God? It is God's choice to reveal the reason, or to keep it hidden. Where do you get off demanding that God must explain Himself, or he's Unjust?

Go read what God spoke to Job. "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

There's a gaping whole in your theology you cannot explain. It makes God unjust and discriminatory..

The gaping hole is in your imperfect understanding. Falsely accusing God of sin, just because you don't understand or accept how He chooses to act, is blasphemous.

 

[jmacvols]

Isn't that God's Right, being the Creator and all? Why do you find fault with God? It is God's choice to reveal the reason, or to keep it hidden. Where do you get off demanding that God must explain Himself, or he's Unjust?

Go read what God spoke to Job. "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"



The gaping hole is in your imperfect understanding. Falsely accusing God of sin, just because you don't understand or accept how He chooses to act, is blasphemous.

It would be you that is "without knoweldge and undertanding" if you cannot explain why God, before the world began (a time everyone was alike) chose to save some and cause others to be lost. You cannot make God to be unjust, capricious, discriminatory and then claim He is just, fair and cannot be questioned.
If you took another to court over a legal matter, would you want the judge to hear your side of the argument? Or would you want the judge, before he hears anything, flip a coin and decide who wins the case? Those whom God supossedly chose to be lost before the world began never had their "day in court". They were unjustly found guilty before they even did anything, before they even existed!!