Free Will

[Epiphoskei]

Indeed, "will not the Judge of the world do right?"

The only thing left to the imagination is "how?", and we don't really need to know the how either. We have what God does, and we have the fact he's righteous. If the two facts don't sit well with someone, the cure is to admit we don't understand as we should precicely how this is so, but it's not permissable to ignore that the Lord does things and is yet Righteous.

The argument, "How can he find fault? Who resists his will?" doesn't fly, and yet it appears so frequently in these discussions.

 

[jmacvols]

Like I said, Free will isn't choice, it's sovereign choice.

That is what free will simply is, the ability to make a choice. I am not certain what you mean by "Sovereign choice". Are you suggesting that God makes choices for man that man cannot make his own choices?

No, the scripture says the people are predestined. Salvation is the thing predestined, and salvation comes to people, not assemblies. Assemblies are composed of "the sanctified," but salvation is for people, not churches.

There is no verse that says certain particular individuals were chosen. Eph 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." Those that were chosen are the ones in Him or in Christ. Christians are the ones in Christ. Each person chooses to be in Christ by obeying Him in baptism, they then are in Christ, Gal 3:27. Each person uses his free will to choose to be in Christ or not. God did not randomly pick individuals to be in Christ.

 

[jmacvols]

Good Day, Jmacvols

You are confusing will with agency.

Class of people are made up of sigular people, difference with out distiction.

From Eph 1:4 those "in Christ" are the chosen. Those in Christ are a class of people called Christians. There are no non-Chrsitians in Christ. Each individual has to choose whether they want to be in this class of people called Christians or not. There is no verse that says God randomly selected certain individuals to be Christians and certain individual not to be Christians.

Rom 8:29

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Singular pronoun, the object of the (verbs) Forknown and presdestined.

"If" the Lord shall set you free then you are free indeed, "if" he does not you are not.

In this context, whom did God foreknow? Has there ever been anyone who lived that God did not foreknow? No. So God has foreknown every person who has ever been born, therefore it is every man's destiny to be conformed to the image of His Son. In other words, it is every man's destiny to be a Christian. As someone said earlier, it is every fish's destiny to swim in water, likewise it is every man's destiny to be a Christian. A man that is not a Christian is like a fish out of water, neither are where they were destined to be. True happiness for man can only be found in being a Christian. Now if every man is destined to be a Christian then why are not all men Christians? Because God gave man a free will. Few will use their free will and choose to accept this destiny while most will use their free will to reject it.

Does the Lord flip a coin to decide whom He will and will not set free?

 

[jmacvols]

Rom 2:14 The Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law.

Good Day, Jmavols

The Gentiles had not the law.... Who did?

Paul is makeing a comparsion.



I will write my law on their heart and I shall be their God...

THe law of Moses was given to the Jews not the Gentiles. Even though the Gentiles did not have God's law, they did by nature those things the law contained. Again, this would have been impossible if men always choose to do sin.

In the Jewish alms givers were seen as righteous before men. Our righteous is rags to an Holy God.



I do not know, nor do I care, But he has the free-will to do so. It is God that work our will to do his good pleasure.

In Him,

Bill

Isa 64:6 refers to those who were in iniquity. Verse 5 says God meets (entreats, makes intercession-Strongs) him that worketh righteousness.

 

[jmacvols]

Indeed, "will not the Judge of the world do right?"

The only thing left to the imagination is "how?", and we don't really need to know the how either. We have what God does, and we have the fact he's righteous. If the two facts don't sit well with someone, the cure is to admit we don't understand as we should precicely how this is so, but it's not permissable to ignore that the Lord does things and is yet Righteous.

The argument, "How can he find fault? Who resists his will?" doesn't fly, and yet it appears so frequently in these discussions.

No, it is not God that is being questioned by me, it is your theology under question. You present a strawman type argument, you make God out to be something He is not (unfair, unjust, capricious) then say one cannot question or find fault with God.

 

[BBAS 64]

From Eph 1:4 those "in Christ" are the chosen. Those in Christ are a class of people called Christians. There are no non-Chrsitians in Christ. Each individual has to choose whether they want to be in this class of people called Christians or not. There is no verse that says God randomly selected certain individuals to be Christians and certain individual not to be Christians.

Good Day, Jmavols

Read the context, follow the pronouns up to verse 4, which you misquote. Not even the passage I posted.

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

In this context, whom did God foreknow? Has there ever been anyone who lived that God did not foreknow? No.

Christ say he never knew them who did those works in his name. He never did the (verb) to know. Scripture refeutes your answer.

So God has foreknown every person who has ever been born, therefore it is every man's destiny to be conformed to the image of His Son. In other words, it is every man's destiny to be a Christian. As someone said earlier, it is every fish's destiny to swim in water, likewise it is every man's destiny to be a Christian. A man that is not a Christian is like a fish out of water, neither are where they were destined to be. True happiness for man can only be found in being a Christian. Now if every man is destined to be a Christian then why are not all men Christians? Because God gave man a free will. Few will use their free will and choose to accept this destiny while most will use their free will to reject it.

Does the Lord flip a coin to decide whom He will and will not set free?

No basis for any of this in Scripture, sorry I am a sola Scriptura type of guy. Your premise is lacking support....

The Lord "never" knew some.

Filp a coin

No, it is according to his good pleasure, in accordance with his free-will.

Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Not Random on this we agree.

IN Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

THe law of Moses was given to the Jews not the Gentiles. Even though the Gentiles did not have God's law, they did by nature those things the law contained. Again, this would have been impossible if men always choose to do sin.

Good Day,

I will write my law on their heart I will be their God and they will be my people. They (gentiles) have the law because of something God does to them.

Isa 64:6 refers to those who were in iniquity. Verse 5 says God meets (entreats, makes intercession-Strongs) him that worketh righteousness.

Ummm OK

In Him,

Bill

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I've seen a lot of people defending predestination with Scripture, and a lot of people defending free will by saying that the predestinarian verses don't support free will.

Why is free will the default position in lack of evidence?!

Will somebody, please, defend salvation by free choice by actually quoting Scripture instead of just attacking historic Protestants as if when the Scriptures are silent, free will is the default?

 

[Epiphoskei]

No, it is not God that is being questioned by me, it is your theology under question. You present a strawman type argument, you make God out to be something He is not (unfair, unjust, capricious) then say one cannot question or find fault with God.

My theology is derived from the scriptures. Without going through the "this verse means this" "no it doesn't" "yes it does" "no it doesnt" fight which has been fought over and over again for the last four hundred years, I will simply say that after hearing hours on end of arminian/free-willers/what-have-you folk saying "that's not what the Bible actually means when it says that," I have found no reason to believe the typical Calvinist verses in John, Romans, and Ephesians among others, do not teach the total sovereignty found in the Doctrines called Calvinism. And when a person says that these doctrines do portray a God who is unfair, unjust, or capricious, and thus cannot be the case, that is an unacceptable argument, being rejected by the Scriptures themselves as talking back to God. The only thing which matters is, "what do the scriptures say?" As I have said, libertarian free will is never taught in scripture. We are free in so far as our actions are genuinely our own, products of who we are. Scripture shows men making their own choices. However, we are not free in so far as our choices are our own creation,apart from what we will by nature choose on account of who we are.

 

[jmacvols]

Good Day, Jmavols

Read the context, follow the pronouns up to verse 4, which you misquote. Not even the passage I posted.

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

THe Ephesian epistle was written to the saints which are at Ephesus, faithful in Christ Jesus. In other words, this epistle was written to Christians, so "us" refers to Christians, those "in Christ". God predestined Christians to be saved, but God does not force people to be Christians, people choose this for themselves.

Christ say he never knew them who did those works in his name. He never did the (verb) to know. Scripture refeutes your answer.

God's foreknowledge and Christ never knowing those sinners who did not obey Him are not the same thing. Are you suggest from above that some people came into this world that God did not foreknow, some got past God's foreknowledge?

No basis for any of this in Scripture, sorry I am a sola Scriptura type of guy. Your premise is lacking support....

The Lord "never" knew some.

So you are suggesting some people slipped past God's foreknowledge.

Edit: I too am a scripture only type; Catholicism and Calvinism are both wrong.

Filp a coin

No, it is according to his good pleasure, in accordance with his free-will.

Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Not Random on this we agree.

IN Him,

Bill

What you say above does not explain why God supposedly causes some to be saved and causes most to be lost. If God does not base His decision upon anything we do, then what criteria did He use to detemine who will be saved and who will be lost?
1) If God did not use any kind of criteria to make His decisions, then it must have been purely random.

2)Saying one cannot question God or find fault with God does not answer this problem you have here. Making God out to be something He is not and then saying one cannot question Him is a false argument.

3) your not being able to come up with a criteria God used to determine who will be saved and who lost, again, makes God's actions random and leaves a gaping, unexplainable hole in your theology.

 

[jmacvols]

Good Day,

I will write my law on their heart I will be their God and they will be my people. They (gentiles) have the law because of something God does to them.




Ummm OK

In Him,

Bill

No, Rom 2:14 says "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law." Above you say "They (gentiles) have the law..." yet the verse says the Gentiles "have not the law".

 

[jmacvols]

I've seen a lot of people defending predestination with Scripture, and a lot of people defending free will by saying that the predestinarian verses don't support free will.

Why is free will the default position in lack of evidence?!

Will somebody, please, defend salvation by free choice by actually quoting Scripture instead of just attacking historic Protestants as if when the Scriptures are silent, free will is the default?

The bible teaches both predestination and free will. Yet God did not predestine some particular individuals to be saved and other particular individuals to be lost against their free will. God simply predestined a class of people called Christians to be saved, so it is up to each person to use their free will to choose to be in this class of people or not.

 

[jmacvols]

My theology is derived from the scriptures.

Not if your saying God, before the world began, has already detemined who will be saved and lost and that man has no part in where he will spend his eternity.

Without going through the "this verse means this" "no it doesn't" "yes it does" "no it doesnt" fight which has been fought over and over again for the last four hundred years, I will simply say that after hearing hours on end of arminian/free-willers/what-have-you folk saying "that's not what the Bible actually means when it says that,"

Could you provide just one verse that says what criteria God used before the world began in choosing who will be saved and who lost?

I have found no reason to believe the typical Calvinist verses in John, Romans, and Ephesians among others, do not teach the total sovereignty found in the Doctrines called Calvinism.

Calvinists verses = oxymoron
No such thing.

Is God a Sovereign God? Yes. Does this mean God can do anything He wants? No. Along side His sovereignty, God also has a perfect Holy Nature based upon the fact He cannot lie. So even though God has all sovereignty He cannot use this sovereignty to tell a lie. So when God makes a promise, He cannot use His sovereignty to lie and break that promise. God has promised salvation to all that obey, Heb 5:9 and condemnation to those that obey not the gospel, 2 Thes 1:8. Two promises God cannot change or break lest He lie. So God uses obedience as His criteria, those that obey God will be save, those that do not obey God will be punished. This is a far cry from a God that Calvin portrayed as one that acts in an unexplainable, random fashion. Again, if God does not use obedience as the criteria as to who will be saved/lost, then what criteria does He use? He must use one else He acts randomly.

And when a person says that these doctrines do portray a God who is unfair, unjust, or capricious, and thus cannot be the case, that is an unacceptable argument, being rejected by the Scriptures themselves as talking back to God. The only thing which matters is, "what do the scriptures say?" As I have said, libertarian free will is never taught in scripture. We are free in so far as our actions are genuinely our own, products of who we are. Scripture shows men making their own choices. However, we are not free in so far as our choices are our own creation,apart from what we will by nature choose on account of who we are.

Above you admit that scriptures show men making their own choices, which, in a nut shell, is free will in action.

You say "we will by nature choose on account of who we are." Exactly who are we? What do you exactly mean by this?

 

[beloved57]

Freewill is a lie from the pits of hell, thats what it is..

Only Gods will is free to whatsover he pleases....

 

[jmacvols]

Freewill is a lie from the pits of hell, thats what it is..

Did you use free will and chose for yourself to think this or did something external to you force you to think this?

Only Gods will is free to whatsover he pleases....

Can God tell a lie if He so pleases?

 

[humbleservant7]

Man having a freewill is the biggest lie of the century..

why do you say that?

 

[jmacvols]

why do you say that?

Because his free will allows him to.

 

[humbleservant7]

Because his free will allows him to.

haha!

 

[beloved57]

why do you say that?

Because its true..

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

The bible teaches both predestination and free will. Yet God did not predestine some particular individuals to be saved and other particular individuals to be lost against their free will. God simply predestined a class of people called Christians to be saved, so it is up to each person to use their free will to choose to be in this class of people or not.

Uh... that doesn't answer my question at all.

You guys can attack predestination all you want. But even if the Scriptures are silent on the issue of predestination doesn't make free will the default.

Please support salvation by free will from the Scriptures.