Forcing the Chruch to accept homosexuality..

[LightHorseman]

Families and society aside, do you not fear God? If He did not Spare His own son for taking on your sin, then why would He spare you for not repenting of that sin?

This conversation is about much much more than the social impact Homosexuality has on our society. This discussion is about how Homosexuality is undermining the very Gospel Christ Jesus Died for.

Why can you not see that?

I really don't think that it is. Believe homosexuality is a sin all you want. So long as no one is forcing you to do it, you're free to believe the Gospel means anything you think it means and you are fully observant of it.

Maybe literalist, cherry picked condemnations of minorities undermine the very Gospel Christ died for. Why can't you see that?

 

[razeontherock]

Today, homosexual marriage becoming legal would not be as drastic a step as pederasty because it's not typically middle-aged men marrying teenage boys, but it's still a step in the same direction because it would make homosexuality perfectly acceptable, on a par w/ hetero-sexuality. That is in fact the effort, and anyone not opposed to that has by definition removed themselves from the Apostolic Tradition. Christians supporting this are trying to do away with the foundation the Church is built on, if only unwittingly. The story of Adam and Eve tells us that Judgment in such cases is no less real.

But homosexuality itself, w/o marriage, is just another sin issue. If a hetero-sexual person, actively engaged in sex outside of marriage and seeking more, were to present themselves as a sincere Christian - wouldn't it be better for them to openly admit their sin and receive help struggling against it?

The Church should accept homosexuals in the same way. In fact, there should be a sort of badge of honor for having the courage to admit the struggle, and coming to the Lord (and His people) for HELP. Non-acceptance in any form at all precludes that entirely!

 

[vl32]

Today, homosexual marriage becoming legal would not be as drastic a step as pederasty because it's not typically middle-aged men marrying teenage boys, but it's still a step in the same direction because it would make homosexuality perfectly acceptable, on a par w/ hetero-sexuality. That is in fact the effort, and anyone not opposed to that has by definition removed themselves from the Apostolic Tradition. Christians supporting this are trying to do away with the foundation the Church is built on, if only unwittingly. The story of Adam and Eve tells us that Judgment in such cases is no less real.

But homosexuality itself, w/o marriage, is just another sin issue. If a hetero-sexual person, actively engaged in sex outside of marriage and seeking more, were to present themselves as a sincere Christian - wouldn't it be better for them to openly admit their sin and receive help struggling against it?

The Church should accept homosexuals in the same way. In fact, there should be a sort of badge of honor for having the courage to admit the struggle, and coming to the Lord (and His people) for HELP. Non-acceptance in any form at all precludes that entirely!

I agree with your post! However, we have [some] of society saying there is no cure; repairative therapy doesn't work, and so forth, and too many people nowadays believe there is no cure, so what does the church do about all the scientific data which says there is no cure? (Even though I know this to be false because I have people in my own family circle who have repented in their young adulthood and gone on to live happily married heterosexual lives. So I know the Lord healed them, and so I have to disagree with the current data that it is hopeless.) Yet, most of the pro-gay camp still says and believes there is no cure/no hope and/or it's damaging to a gay person to try repairative therapy. It's pretty hard to present the gospel when people believe there is no hope or it's damaging for a homosexual to change.

 

[AngelusSax]

I agree with your post! However, we have [some] of society saying there is no cure; repairative therapy doesn't work, and so forth, and too many people nowadays believe there is no cure, so what does the church do about all the scientific data which says there is no cure? (Even though I know this to be false because I have people in my own family circle who have repented in their young adulthood and gone on to live happily married heterosexual lives. So I know the Lord healed them, and so I have to disagree with the current data that it is hopeless.) Yet, most of the pro-gay camp still says and believes there is no cure/no hope and/or it's damaging to a gay person to try repairative therapy. It's pretty hard to present the gospel when people believe there is no hope or it's damaging for a homosexual to change

There are some who are changed. There are others who pray daily to be changed and never are, and go to their graves still homosexual. And some people put on a good show, pretending to be heterosexual, for a long time. That's not to say that's what happened with your people you know, don't misunderstand me. Some people DO get changed. But others do not. What is damaging isn't necessarily the therapy. What is damaging is beating someone over the head with it (figuratively). It might be easy to say their heart isn't in it, and sometimes that might be true, but other times it isn't. If someone tries it freely, and they pray, and pray, and pray, and yet are still gay, then maybe for them there is no "cure", because there's nothing for them to be "cured" from in the first place.

Shorter version: Some people act gay out of rebellion or a host of a lot of other reasons, and some are confused and experiment and such, and these people may need therapy to find who they are. Other people are just truly gay and will die that way, regardless of any amount of therapy.

 

[AngelusSax]

Maybe literalist, cherry picked condemnations of minorities undermine the very Gospel Christ died for. Why can't you see that?

Until there is the same condemnation for those who eat shrimp and wear poly/cotton blends as there is for the homosexual community, the Gospel of Christ is worthless. (tongue-in-cheek, I hope you all get that).

 

[vl32]

There are some who are changed. There are others who pray daily to be changed and never are, and go to their graves still homosexual. And some people put on a good show, pretending to be heterosexual, for a long time. That's not to say that's what happened with your people you know, don't misunderstand me. Some people DO get changed. But others do not. What is damaging isn't necessarily the therapy. What is damaging is beating someone over the head with it (figuratively). It might be easy to say their heart isn't in it, and sometimes that might be true, but other times it isn't. If someone tries it freely, and they pray, and pray, and pray, and yet are still gay, then maybe for them there is no "cure", because there's nothing for them to be "cured" from in the first place.

Shorter version: Some people act gay out of rebellion or a host of a lot of other reasons, and some are confused and experiment and such, and these people may need therapy to find who they are. Other people are just truly gay and will die that way, regardless of any amount of therapy.

Thanks, I will think about what you said.

Yet, take this for example. A confused young teenager feels they may be gay but wants to change and not have those feelings. So that young person goes to church looking to change yet may feel cannot because society says so and now the church says so. What do they do? Afterall, of course, the church doesn't want to damage anyone, so it feels like walking on eggshells sometimes. And, if they change, do you think they were bisexually orientated in the first place and not actually homosexual orientated?

 

[Phinehas2]

AngelusSax,
I eat shrimp, but then I am a Christian, I follow Jesus Christ's NT fulfillment. see Mark 7 and Romans, it no longer matters what one eats.
As a Christian one does still need to avoid sexual immorality, including homosexuality, Jesus Chirst's NT teaching affirms God's creation purpose in faithful man/woman union (Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 7, Eph 5) and condemns same sex relations (1 Cor 6, Romans 1)
One who argues with Christ's teaching hasnt yet accepted Christ as the truth the way and the life.

 

[vl32]

There are some who are changed. There are others who pray daily to be changed and never are, and go to their graves still homosexual.

The above statement could also be true of alcoholics also though. Just wanted to add that. Some alcoholics cured/some go to their graves because of alcoholism.

I think alcoholism is just as hard to fight as anything else. Wouldn't you? So does the church just say to alcoholics "you were born that way genetically, so there is no hope, no cure?"

I thought church was a place to go to receive forgiveness of sin by accepting and confessing Jesus is the Christ and believing he has forgiven you of sin and given you a fresh start by being "born again" of the Holy Spirit whom gives us the strength to overcome.

 

[Phinehas2]

Polycarp1,

I for one am NOT expecting any local church which finds no Biblical warrant for it to accept a gay marriage. I AM expecting two things:

1. That every individual who seeks Christ be given access to Him, and that every individual whatsoever be entitled to the Good News of forgiveness in Christ, without some people picking and choosing which sins of their own they will excuse away while holding others accountable for theirs.

2. That no person who has accepted Christ's grace should act to deny others theirgod-given rights at law, whatever the legislature and the courts determine those rights to be, and that they not sink alms given for upkeep of the church and relief of the poor into political campaigns, and condone or even promote blatant lies to be told to influence voters to vote as they wish.

I don't expect the church to "accept homosexuality" (at least not in the meaning some conservatives put on the word, of sexual activity) but I do expect them to accept homosexuals, i.e., people who have same-sex attractions unchangeable without God's help, sinners redeemed by His grace just like themselves.

Any church that doesn’t find homosexuality a sin is arguably not a church, as the Bible condemns it without question, and the church is the body of believers.

Anyone who supports ‘gay marriage’ or homosexuality has not yet accepted Jesus Christ as the way the truth and the life or the grace of God.

 

[Jase]

I agree with your post! However, we have [some] of society saying there is no cure; repairative therapy doesn't work, and so forth, and too many people nowadays believe there is no cure, so what does the church do about all the scientific data which says there is no cure? (Even though I know this to be false because I have people in my own family circle who have repented in their young adulthood and gone on to live happily married heterosexual lives. So I know the Lord healed them, and so I have to disagree with the current data that it is hopeless.) Yet, most of the pro-gay camp still says and believes there is no cure/no hope and/or it's damaging to a gay person to try repairative therapy. It's pretty hard to present the gospel when people believe there is no hope or it's damaging for a homosexual to change.

Reparative therapy has been proven to be extremely psychologically damaging. In fact, several founders of ex-gay organizations have publically apologized for the damage their organizations have caused. The American Psychological Association strongly warns against them.

And regardless of what you may believe, the APA has also stated that sexual orientation by and large does not change. At least in the sense you're trying to think of it. Homosexuality is not a disease, and therefore cannot be cured (it's also insulting to claim it is a disease). Do some homosexuals end up having families? Yes, but I can guarantee you it's due to 1 of 2 reasons - 1) They are suppressing their feelings to fit in with society or 2) They shifted to the bisexual spectrum and are only catering to their opposite-sex attractions.

There is no documented evidence that anyone has ever gone from a Kinsey scale 6 to a 0. It doesn't happen. Orientation does have some fluidity, so some gays can eventually feel bisexual attractions, however, there is no guarantee that will happen nor is there a "cure" to make it happen.

 

[Jase]

Until there is the same condemnation for those who eat shrimp and wear poly/cotton blends as there is for the homosexual community, the Gospel of Christ is worthless. (tongue-in-cheek, I hope you all get that).

Haven't you heard, those are only ceremonial, so we can ignore them. Gays, however, are still icky.

 

[Jase]

Thanks, I will think about what you said.

Yet, take this for example. A confused young teenager feels they may be gay but wants to change and not have those feelings. So that young person goes to church looking to change yet may feel cannot because society says so and now the church says so. What do they do? Afterall, of course, the church doesn't want to damage anyone, so it feels like walking on eggshells sometimes. And, if they change, do you think they were bisexually orientated in the first place and not actually homosexual orientated?

It's hard to make a claim about orientation with a teenager. Sexuality is still developing, which makes it rather pointless to label him at a young age.

I think the problem is, kids wouldn't feel like they would have to change to appease the church, if the church stopped bullying gays into believing they are evil and have a disease. Science has quite strongly shown that sexual orientation is largely determined at birth. Even if not 100%, there is a component of sexual orientation that one has no control over. I've not met a single heterosexual person that has claimed they chose to be straight. They just found when they were kids that the opposite-sex is "cute" or "pretty".

The LGBT community, particularly among teens and young adults, has the highest suicide rate of any other group. I don't think the "church" is helping the situation.

 

[Jase]

The above statement could also be true of alcoholics also though. Just wanted to add that. Some alcoholics cured/some go to their graves because of alcoholism.

I think alcoholism is just as hard to fight as anything else. Wouldn't you? So does the church just say to alcoholics "you were born that way genetically, so there is no hope, no cure?"

I thought church was a place to go to receive forgiveness of sin by accepting and confessing Jesus is the Christ and believing he has forgiven you of sin and given you a fresh start by being "born again" of the Holy Spirit whom gives us the strength to overcome.

Alcoholism is a demonstrated illness. Homosexuality is not. That's a big difference.

 

[drich0150]

Not quite, I'm still addressing the initial question of whether a gay couple is engaging in premarital sex discounting, for the moment, whether or not homosexuality is in itself a sin. And when we set that question aside, I see absolutely no scriptural support for refusing to recognize gay marriages

.

So the fact that their is absolutely No scriptural precedent for this type of union means nothing to you? You are aware that silence in scripture is not the same as a doctrine of permissibility? This is exactly what you are doing. You are in fact representing a biblical permissibility when their isn't a precedent for it. Why is this not a red flag for you?

As far as scriptural support for gay marriage, there is no where it is directly addressed. While there are certain rules about marriage (you should marry within the faith, you should marry with the intent to remain married forever, etc) none of them addresses required genders for marriage. None of them establishes that couples must have or be able to have children. None of them establishes any requirement that a same sex couple cannot meet.

This is blatantly untrue. Every example given is about a union between Man and woman. Nowhere in scripture has a same sex marriage ever been modeled or sanctified by God. If it is as you say and gay marriages were common place then why isn't their at least one simple provision that establishes the legitimacy of this union? Do you not think that God could not see or anticipate something like this to divide His church? Why not make one provision if this is in fact in His will?

Again, you set forth an idea that discounting the rightness of homosexuality itself, gay sex would run afoul of the premarital sex rule. This si what i have been addressing and will continue to address.

You may choose to address what every you feel you can debate, but know that without a biblical context in which a homosexual relationship can be sanctified before God. your efforts can easily be identified as a personal belief, and that has little to nothing to do with the expressed will of God.
As I have mentioned to others this, discussion is about Homosexuality, Sin, The Homosexual doctrine of the permissibility of sin, and how that all relates to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Expressed will of God according to scripture.

If you wish to carry on without the bible to regulate your words or actions, then you may be doing so alone. I wish to have a Biblically based "Christian" conversation. Not an I said so conversation dressed in what looks like scripture.

 

[drich0150]

I really don't think that it is. Believe homosexuality is a sin all you want. So long as no one is forcing you to do it, you're free to believe the Gospel means anything you think it means and you are fully observant of it.

Maybe literalist, cherry picked condemnations of minorities undermine the very Gospel Christ died for. Why can't you see that?

Why can you not see Homosexuality as being Sex outside the confines of a sanctified marriage? This sex like any sex outside of marriage is a sin. Not a sin that requires segregation and chastisement, but a sin like any other that must find forgiveness through repentance.

Changing the sin status of any sin dooms that sinner to Hell. Because why would someone repent of something they are not guilty of? The Gospel of Christ only provides Forgiveness through repentance. Why is it you can not see that?

Changing the Doctrine of Jesus Christ from forgiveness of sin to the Permissibility of sin, does not free the sinner. It condemns him. If God would not spare His Son for taking the place of all who sinned, They why would he spare someone who demands that God accept Him for the sins he will not repent of?

Do you hate gay people? Then why condemn them to Hell?

Also Sniper guy was not an insult, I could not remember your screen name, but remembered your avatar. Sorry.

 

[Jase]

.

So the fact that their is absolutely No scriptural precedent for this type of union means nothing to you? You are aware that silence in scripture is not the same as a doctrine of permissibility? This is exactly what you are doing. You are in fact representing a biblical permissibility when their isn't a precedent for it. Why is this not a red flag for you?

99.9% of all human actions, behavior, etc. has no scriptural precedent. Does that mean nothing to you?

 

[drich0150]

I agree with your post! However, we have [some] of society saying there is no cure; repairative therapy doesn't work, and so forth, and too many people nowadays believe there is no cure, so what does the church do about all the scientific data which says there is no cure? (Even though I know this to be false because I have people in my own family circle who have repented in their young adulthood and gone on to live happily married heterosexual lives. So I know the Lord healed them, and so I have to disagree with the current data that it is hopeless.) Yet, most of the pro-gay camp still says and believes there is no cure/no hope and/or it's damaging to a gay person to try repairative therapy. It's pretty hard to present the gospel when people believe there is no hope or it's damaging for a homosexual to change.

If you looked at Homosexuality as any other sin, rather than looking at it as the sin of Homosexuality then all Heteros like their brothers can both be found in a sin situation in which their is no scientific cure. This is why we must strive to maintain the gospel of Forgiveness of sin. Because none are without sin, and we all need this avenue to be our Spiritual "cure." But when we take and eliminate Forgiveness of sin and replace it with acceptance of sin then all who are in that sin will not find forgiveness for it.

 

[drich0150]

There are some who are changed. There are others who pray daily to be changed and never are, and go to their graves still homosexual.

It is not a sin to struggle with sin. All sin can find forgiveness if one simply repents. But, repentance will not be found if one believes he is not in sin. This is the sin in which there is no forgiveness.

 

[drich0150]

It's hard to make a claim about orientation with a teenager. Sexuality is still developing, which makes it rather pointless to label him at a young age.

So your saying Homosexuality is a choice. Because if one were born gay or Korean then their is nothing to develop. He is what He is..

 

[drich0150]

Alcoholism is a demonstrated illness. Homosexuality is not. That's a big difference.

Did we not just establish the you believe homosexuality to be a choice? Is not Alcoholism a choice? I fail to see a "big difference."