Forcing the Chruch to accept homosexuality..

[Jase]

Says you. I have shown you where scripture point to the sin found in homosexuality.

No you haven't. You've shown a very questionable interpretation of an English translation based on a literalistic approach.

That have nothing to do with your favorite five, and yet you best response is to ignore me..

Seeing as I adamantly disagree with your views and methods of expressing them, ignoring you seems to be the best solution since we certainly are never going to agree.

I also get tired of going out of my way to type out lengthy explanations with evidentiary support, only to have you guys go "Nuh uh, my interpretation says its wrong!".

 

[Jase]

This was taken from Gotquestions.org My version has been lost to the endless pages on this topic

Perhaps you'd like to start using a less biased source, instead of a staunchly conservative apologetics site?

 

[drich0150]

No you haven't. You've shown a very questionable interpretation of an English translation based on a literalistic approach.
Seeing as I adamantly disagree with your views and methods of expressing them, ignoring you seems to be the best solution since we certainly are never going to agree.
I also get tired of going out of my way to type out lengthy explanations with evidentiary support, only to have you guys go "Nuh uh, my interpretation says its wrong!".

You must seriously just put things you do not want to hear out of your mind.

My position revolves around the sexual nature of Homosexuality, not about the sin itself. Homosexuality like all other expressions of sexuality, is a sin to be engage in sexual behavior outside the confines of a sanctified marriage. Since this is a universal Christian truth, it is up to you to provide us with verses that establish a context in which Gay sex is permissible. Otherwise a reasonable man would have to either acknowledge the Christian position or simply separate Himself and his teachings from Christianity.. (Even if you can not, Know that your words and actions have done that for you.)

So you see the tired argument you drag out, every time someone simply writes the word homosexual in a negative light is no longer valid. It in now up to you to Show a context in scripture that sanctifies a gay relationship in the context of Marriage in order for this not to be a sin.

So you see this has nothing to do with your fav 5 verses or the web site I referenced. Plainly and simply Homosexuality is a sin like all other sexual sin committed outside the confines of a sanctified marriage... That's According to Christianity. your religion may believe otherwise, just do not represent what you believe as the expressed will of God or a collective Christian view.

 

[[serious]]

This was taken from Gotquestions.org My version has been lost to the endless pages on this topic

In the first few chapters of Genesis, God fills the earth with large numbers of different kinds of life. He doesn't just put a few fish in the ocean; it "abounds" with them. But when it comes to mankind, He makes just one male and one female, and those two were to become "one flesh." The implication from Genesis 2:24 is that this "one woman for one man for one lifetime" was a principle not just for Adam and Eve but for all who would be born to a father and mother. Jesus commented on this Genesis passage when the Jewish leaders brought up the topic of divorce: "But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate”" (Mark 10:6-9).

Marriage is the union of a man and a woman, creating a new entity, a new “whole” (one flesh). This union is brought about by a mutual commitment before God (expressed through a public vow today) to forsake all others, to keep themselves only unto their new partner, and to act in the best interest of the other (to love), and to seek to fulfill God’s purposes for their lives as a new unit. This commitment is to last as long as they both shall live (1 Corinthians 7:39).

Marriage is not merely a “friendship.” Although it is not the “consummation” that begins the actual marriage (or Joseph and Mary would not have been “married” until after Christ was born (Matthew 1:25), sexual activity is understood to be a natural part of marriage (Exodus 21:10; Hebrews 13:4). Today, the exchanging of the vows during a wedding ceremony is the vocalization of the commitment that was understood between biblical couples such as Isaac and Rebekah in Genesis 24:67.

Some of God’s purposes for marriage as stated in the Bible are companionship (Genesis 2:18), procreation (Genesis 1:28), mutual and undefiled pleasure (1 Corinthians 7:4-5; Proverbs 5:18-19; Song of Solomon; Hebrews 13:4), prevention of immorality (1 Corinthians 7:2,5), the serving of Christ as a whole and properly representing the spiritual relationship between Christ and the Church (Ephesians 5:22-33), and the raising of godly descendants (Malachi 2:13-16). The bond of marriage (when respected) leads to the good of not only the couple and their children, but also to the good of the society as a whole, for the family unit is the building block of any society.

An interesting collection of cited verses. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing a single one on who is allowed to marry whom. There are references to to purposes of marriage which I can address, but no list of "in order to marry person A and person B must be X, Y, and Z."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Provides an explanation of why people marry. No prohibitions or requirements are set.

6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’a 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,b 8 and the two will become one flesh.’c So they are no longer two, but one. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

Provides an explanation of why people marry. No prohibitions or requirements are set.

39 A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

Relates to rules for widows remarrying. She encouraged to remain unmarried, but is free to marry "anyone she wishes." Arguably, this would support gay marriage if the anyone she wishes happens to be female as well.

The only prohibition set is that she should remarry within the faith.

25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

No prohibitions or requirements are set.

67 Isaac brought her into the tent of his mother Sarah, and he married Rebekah. So she became his wife, and he loved her; and Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.

No prohibitions or requirements are set.

10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.

These are rules relating to polygamy with a slave purchased as a bride. It may not be the kind of verse you want to point to when arguing for "traditional marriage"

No prohibitions or requirements are set.

4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Another interesting one. "marriage should be honored by all" reads more like a command NOT to refuse to recognize gay marriage. Beyond that it simply says not to cheat.

4 The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

We are not to deny sex to our spouses, but this again does not deal with any rules or prohibitions on who should get married.

18 May your fountain be blessed,
and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
19 A loving doe, a graceful deer—
may her breasts satisfy you always,
may you ever be captivated by her love.

No prohibitions or requirements are set.

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

No prohibitions or requirements are set.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

If we go down this road, we have to address whether an infertile couple can marry.

2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.

This one is kind of pulled out of context. The jist of the chapter is "it's good not to marry if you don't have strong attractions, but if you do have strong desire, it's better to marry." It seems the most straight forward application of this would be that homosexuals should marry rather than burn with passion.

22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansinga her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”b 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Again, speaks to behavior in marriage, but no prohibitions or requirements are set for entering into marriage.

13 Another thing you do: You flood the Lord’s altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. 14 You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.
15 Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring.c So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth.
16 “I hate divorce,” says the Lord God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himselfd with violence as well as with his garment,” says the Lord Almighty.
So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

A warning against divorce, but no prohibitions or requirements are set for marriage.

 

[KCKID]

An interesting collection of cited verses. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing a single one on who is allowed to marry whom. There are references to to purposes of marriage which I can address, but no list of "in order to marry person A and person B must be X, Y, and Z."

Provides an explanation of why people marry. No prohibitions or requirements are set.

Provides an explanation of why people marry. No prohibitions or requirements are set.

Relates to rules for widows remarrying. She encouraged to remain unmarried, but is free to marry "anyone she wishes." Arguably, this would support gay marriage if the anyone she wishes happens to be female as well.

The only prohibition set is that she should remarry within the faith.

No prohibitions or requirements are set.

No prohibitions or requirements are set.

These are rules relating to polygamy with a slave purchased as a bride. It may not be the kind of verse you want to point to when arguing for "traditional marriage"

No prohibitions or requirements are set.

Another interesting one. "marriage should be honored by all" reads more like a command NOT to refuse to recognize gay marriage. Beyond that it simply says not to cheat.

We are not to deny sex to our spouses, but this again does not deal with any rules or prohibitions on who should get married.

No prohibitions or requirements are set.

No prohibitions or requirements are set.

If we go down this road, we have to address whether an infertile couple can marry.

This one is kind of pulled out of context. The jist of the chapter is "it's good not to marry if you don't have strong attractions, but if you do have strong desire, it's better to marry." It seems the most straight forward application of this would be that homosexuals should marry rather than burn with passion.

Again, speaks to behavior in marriage, but no prohibitions or requirements are set for entering into marriage.

A warning against divorce, but no prohibitions or requirements are set for marriage.

You've done your homework and presented it very clearly. Well done.

 

[KCKID]

Regardless of marriage or civil union, homosexual acts are an abomination in the eyes of God.

Sure hope you observed the Sabbath this weekend, magnum, i.e. Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. If not you're to be put to death. Breaking the Sabbath is denying Creation and to do so SO offends God.

 

[KCKID]

I also get tired of going out of my way to type out lengthy explanations with evidentiary support, only to have you guys go "Nuh uh, my interpretation says its wrong!".

Do they even make the effort to do that? I thought they simply ignored your lengthy explanations with evidentiary support.

 

[nChrist]

See the underlined portions of the Scriptures:

Leviticus 18:22-25 KJV Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

Leviticus 18:22-25 AMP You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination. [I Cor. 6:9, 10.] 23 Neither shall you lie with any beast and defile yourself with it; neither shall any woman yield herself to a beast to lie with it; it is confusion, perversion, and degradedly carnal. 24 Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, for in all these things the nations are defiled which I am casting out before you. 25 And the land is defiled; therefore I visit the iniquity of it upon it, and the land itself vomits out her inhabitants.

====================

Leviticus 20:13 KJV If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:13 AMP If a man lies with a male as if he were a woman, both men have committed an offense (something perverse, unnatural, abhorrent, and detestable); they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 

[mandyangel]

people disagree over this issue. thats fine. but the church doesn't need to accept homosexuality just as much as gay people don't need to accept the the church. people who are anti-gay marriage, like myself are sincere in their beliefs that it is a sin layed out in the bible and that its bad for families and society. theres no reason to attack anybody.

 

[KCKID]

people disagree over this issue. thats fine. but the church doesn't need to accept homosexuality just as much as gay people don't need to accept the the church. people who are anti-gay marriage, like myself are sincere in their beliefs that it is a sin layed out in the bible and that its bad for families and society. theres no reason to attack anybody.

You don't think that the results of 'straight' marriage (50% divorce rate/remarriages=sin) is bad for families and society?

 

[mandyangel]

You don't think that the results of 'straight' marriage (50% divorce rate/remarriages=sin) is bad for families and society?

its terribly tragic. i pray that changes but i doubt it will.

 

[drich0150]

An interesting collection of cited verses. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing a single one on who is allowed to marry whom. There are references to to purposes of marriage which I can address, but no list of "in order to marry person A and person B must be X, Y, and Z."Provides an explanation of why people marry. No prohibitions or requirements are set.Provides an explanation of why people marry. No prohibitions or requirements are set.Relates to rules for widows remarrying. She encouraged to remain unmarried, but is free to marry "anyone she wishes." Arguably, this would support gay marriage if the anyone she wishes happens to be female as well.The only prohibition set is that she should remarry within the faith. No prohibitions or requirements are set.
o prohibitions or requirements are set.
These are rules relating to polygamy with a slave purchased as a bride. It may not be the kind of verse you want to point to when arguing for "traditional marriage"No prohibitions or requirements are set.
Another interesting one. "marriage should be honored by all" reads more like a command NOT to refuse to recognize gay marriage. Beyond that it simply says not to cheat. We are not to deny sex to our spouses, but this again does not deal with any rules or prohibitions on who should get married. No prohibitions or requirements are set.No prohibitions or requirements are set.If we go down this road, we have to address whether an infertile couple can marry.
This one is kind of pulled out of context. The jist of the chapter is "it's good not to marry if you don't have strong attractions, but if you do have strong desire, it's better to marry." It seems the most straight forward application of this would be that homosexuals should marry rather than burn with passion.
Again, speaks to behavior in marriage, but no prohibitions or requirements are set for entering into marriage.
A warning against divorce, but no prohibitions or requirements are set for marriage.

Your collective efforts are meaningless without precedent. You and I both know your speculation can be discarded as meaningless conjecture without a standing biblical example of all you have so valiantly taught. So [serious]-ly it's time for some quid pro quo. Now You provide something, anything, anywhere in the new or old testaments that shows a sanctified gay marriage.

After all you are indeed proclaiming a biblical permissibility of a gay marriage so show us where Gay marriage as been scripturally blessed by God... Can you provide anything that offers a clear concise statement to the validity of the doctrine you represent? In the verses you arbitrarily have dismissed their is a reoccurring pattern of a one man one woman marriage that God is willing to sanctify. Can you show anything that openly supports your position that these definitions have been expanded upon? Or do we all need to "study up and do our home work" in the exact same way you have to find the doctrine you claim is their??

Before we go though more of your "I said so theology." I ask that you please confirm or deny the existence of scripture used to support your position.

 

[drich0150]

Do they even make the effort to do that? I thought they simply ignored your lengthy explanations with evidentially support.

His explanations are usually not on topic. He like you has a difficult time is discussing anything not on your specific 5 verse plan of discussion. So most of the time his arguments are quickly identified and dismissed.

 

[drich0150]

You don't think that the results of 'straight' marriage (50% divorce rate/remarriages=sin) is bad for families and society?

Families and society aside, do you not fear God? If He did not Spare His own son for taking on your sin, then why would He spare you for not repenting of that sin?

This conversation is about much much more than the social impact Homosexuality has on our society. This discussion is about how Homosexuality is undermining the very Gospel Christ Jesus Died for.

Why can you not see that?

 

[Polycarp1]

I for one am NOT expecting any local church which finds no Biblical warrant for it to accept a gay marriage. I AM expecting two things:

1. That every individual who seeks Christ be given access to Him, and that every individual whatsoever be entitled to the Good News of forgiveness in Christ, without some people picking and choosing which sins of their own they will excuse away while holding others accountable for theirs.

2. That no person who has accepted Christ's grace should act to deny others theirgod-given rights at law, whatever the legislature and the courts determine those rights to be, and that they not sink alms given for upkeep of the church and relief of the poor into political campaigns, and condone or even promote blatant lies to be told to influence voters to vote as they wish.

I don't expect the church to "accept homosexuality" (at least not in the meaning some conservatives put on the word, of sexual activity) but I do expect them to accept homosexuals, i.e., people who have same-sex attractions unchangeable without God's help, sinners redeemed by His grace just like themselves.

 

[drich0150]

I for one am NOT expecting any local church which finds no Biblical warrant for it to accept a gay marriage. I AM expecting two things:
1. That every individual who seeks Christ be given access to Him,

We do not disagree here.

and that every individual whatsoever be entitled to the Good News of forgiveness in Christ, without some people picking and choosing which sins of their own they will excuse away while holding others accountable for theirs.

Our personal preferences have little to do with the standard set forth by the Lord. This works both ways! this also means we can not sin and pretend it is not a sin just because we have chose to involve ourselves in said sin.

2. That no person who has accepted Christ's grace should act to deny others their god-given rights at law, whatever the legislature and the courts determine those rights to be, and that they not sink alms given for upkeep of the church and relief of the poor into political campaigns, and condone or even promote blatant lies to be told to influence voters to vote as they wish.

Up until the point you introduced any of this when did identifying sin for the purpose of repentance, involve anything you have mentioned?

I don't expect the church to "accept homosexuality" (at least not in the meaning some conservatives put on the word, of sexual activity) but I do expect them to accept homosexuals, i.e., people who have same-sex attractions unchangeable without God's help, sinners redeemed by His grace just like themselves

The argument before you does not condemn repentant sinners or those who are legitimately looking for the Expressed will of God. My efforts are directed at those who would change the gospel of Christ from one of forgiveness to one of an unbiblical acceptance of sin.

 

[[serious]]

Your collective efforts are meaningless without precedent. You and I both know your speculation can be discarded as meaningless conjecture without a standing biblical example of all you have so valiantly taught. So [serious]-ly it's time for some quid pro quo. Now You provide something, anything, anywhere in the new or old testaments that shows a sanctified gay marriage.

After all you are indeed proclaiming a biblical permissibility of a gay marriage so show us where Gay marriage as been scripturally blessed by God... Can you provide anything that offers a clear concise statement to the validity of the doctrine you represent? In the verses you arbitrarily have dismissed their is a reoccurring pattern of a one man one woman marriage that God is willing to sanctify. Can you show anything that openly supports your position that these definitions have been expanded upon? Or do we all need to "study up and do our home work" in the exact same way you have to find the doctrine you claim is their??

Before we go though more of your "I said so theology." I ask that you please confirm or deny the existence of scripture used to support your position.

Not quite, I'm still addressing the initial question of whether a gay couple is engaging in premarital sex discounting, for the moment, whether or not homosexuality is in itself a sin. And when we set that question aside, I see absolutely no scriptural support for refusing to recognize gay marriages.

As far as scriptural support for gay marriage, there is no where it is directly addressed. While there are certain rules about marriage (you should marry within the faith, you should marry with the intent to remain married forever, etc) none of them addresses required genders for marriage. None of them establishes that couples must have or be able to have children. None of them establishes any requirement that a same sex couple cannot meet.

Again, you set forth an idea that discounting the rightness of homosexuality itself, gay sex would run afoul of the premarital sex rule. This si what i have been addressing and will continue to address.

 

[LightHorseman]

This thread is about INFILTRATION of the Homosexual Doctrine into the Body of believers, not the INDOCTRINATION of the body of believers to the homosexual Doctrine. (Which seems to be the only topic "sniper guy" is prepared to discuss with me.)

"Sniper Guy"? is that in reference to me? Please confirm if it is so I can take the extraordinary amount of offence such a slur would warrant.

 

[LightHorseman]

Accepting homosexuality, and the forcedness of that, is indoctrination. Perhaps you titled the thread wrong and that confuses people.

I think so.

 

[LightHorseman]

Perhaps you'd like to start using a less biased source, instead of a staunchly conservative apologetics site?

I find religioustolerance.org good.