For the glory of God.

[JGG]

What does it signify to kiss a ring?

You kiss the ring of the person you bow down before.

 

[aiki]

And as I just learned, one cannot understand the Bible without jumping through hoops. Which apparently makes it a pretty useless book in this age.

Well, what about a Calculus text, or one about astrophysics, or, say, a book instructing on a foreign language? You'd have to "jump through some hoops" to understand them, too. Are all such texts "pretty useless" then? I think not.

Selah.

 

[oi_antz]

I don't know about you, but for me, Jesus only speaks through the Bible. And as I just learned, one cannot understand the Bible without jumping through hoops. Which apparently makes it a pretty useless book in this age.

For me, Jesus is not limited to only speaking through the bible, but rather The Word of God is alive, discerning my very thoughts and intentions, and this happens throughout the day even between bible readings. The Word of God as been known to the prophets even before Jesus came. Then when He took on human form, we came to know Him as a man, by the name "Jesus" and having the role of Christ, messiah. Jesus is therefore the eternal, everlasting message of God, who always was, always is, and always will be. The bible records some of His activities that various others thought valuable to share.

How are you getting this?

If Person A tells me that he saw my car being stolen by a group of old black men wearing black hats and white shoes, and Person B tells me that he saw my car being stolen by a an young white woman wearing a pink hat and green shoes, it tells me that at least one of these guys don't have their story straight. At least one of them is wrong, if not both of them.

It is interesting though, seeing there is surely promise of heaven given generally. Eg Matthew 5:3, Matthew 25:34. But there is also such as Revelation 3:5. So, I asked the question "who" is promising heaven? Only one person can really make such a promise.

I'm not judging the people, in fact it doesn't matter who Person A, or Person B are. It is only their claims that matter.

Unless you can tell me how I'm judging the claimants not their claims.

Yes, you said that we should get our story straight, which is your statement to say that you think we do not have our story straight. Then immediately we are brought to ask "why don't you get your story straight?" - because you could actually help us by removing the splinters you see in our eyes, but you would only be received if you were perceived as seeing clearly. That's Matthew 7:1-5 BTW.

Also, I do not think aiki would ever permit someone to bow to him. Rather he would encourage you to bow with him.

 

[oi_antz]

Well, what about a Calculus text, or one about astrophysics, or, say, a book instructing on a foreign language? You'd have to "jump through some hoops" to understand them, too. Are all such texts "pretty useless" then? I think not.

Selah.

In this age, people are accustomed to instant gratification. As calculus gratifies a specific type of person, so does truth. 2 Timothy 3:7 and 2 Timothy 4:3-4 are quite relevant here for OP, as he is considering whether faith would remain without lures of heavenly reward. It demonstrates that some people do like to be involved in church for motives other than truth.

 

[JGG]

For me, Jesus is not limited to only speaking through the bible, but rather The Word of God is alive, discerning my very thoughts and intentions, and this happens throughout the day even between bible readings. The Word of God as been known to the prophets even before Jesus came. Then when He took on human form, we came to know Him as a man, by the name "Jesus" and having the role of Christ, messiah. Jesus is therefore the eternal, everlasting message of God, who always was, always is, and always will be. The bible records some of His activities that various others thought valuable to share.

Okay.

It is interesting though, seeing there is surely promise of heaven given generally. Eg Matthew 5:3, Matthew 25:34. But there is also such as Revelation 3:5. So, I asked the question "who" is promising heaven? Only one person can really make such a promise.

Presumably, only one person can deliver on that promise. Lots of people make that promise.

Yes, you said that we should get our story straight, which is your statement to say that you think we do not have our story straight. Then immediately we are brought to ask "why don't you get your story straight?" - because you could actually help us by removing the splinters you see in our eyes, but you would only be received if you were perceived as seeing clearly. That's Matthew 7:1-5 BTW.

Wow. You really don't see the problem with that reasoning? I would need to put splinters in my eyes for you to perceive me as seeing clearly?

Also, I do not think aiki would ever permit someone to bow to him. Rather he would encourage you to bow with him.

That's not what I'm reading. The message I received boiled down to my favorite phrase: "Because I said so."

I don't have time for "because I said so."

 

[oi_antz]

Presumably, only one person can deliver on that promise. Lots of people make that promise.

Do you know why they would do this? I'd quite like to see some of your ideas about that. Also, you know that I don't presume to grant the promise that belongs to Him, right? But I wish you will aspire to it.

Wow. You really don't see the problem with that reasoning? I would need to put splinters in my eyes for you to perceive me as seeing clearly?

Read that passage. It is Jesus describing how one who judges is seen to be hypocritical. You appear to have a log in your eye and you are telling us we have splinters in ours. Whereas if you understood the message so that you could see clearly the errors in our views, then you would be useful and able to help us fix those errors. But without that, it is only a complaint, a criticism, a judgement. Read Matthew 7:1-5, you will get what I've been alluding to. I actually misjudged you, I had assumed you were familiar with that passage.

That's not what I'm reading. The message I received boiled down to my favorite phrase: "Because I said so."

I don't have time for "because I said so."

OK. Sure aiki strongly wants to put right what he can see is wrong, but it doesn't necessarily equate to wanting to be greater than you.

 

[JGG]

Do you know why they would do this? I'd quite like to see some of your ideas about that.

No you wouldn't. Clearly, you'd prefer to dictate my ideas on that.

Read that passage. It is Jesus describing how one who judges is seen to be hypocritical.

But I'm not judging you! I am judging your claims as claims. How am I supposed to believe that one person A's claims are true, if person B has just as much authority on the matter and claims something completely different? You cannot both be right. Before you come to me and dictate to me what I should believe, stop for a second and see if you agree on what I am supposed to believe and why I am supposed to believe it, because I can't believe both of your stories at once! Give up on "Because I said so!" and think about why your stories are different.

You appear to have a log in your eye and you are telling us we have splinters in ours. Whereas if you understood the message so that you could see clearly the errors in our views, then you would be useful and able to help us fix those errors. But without that, it is only a complaint, a criticism, a judgement. Read Matthew 7:1-5, you will get what I've been alluding to. I actually misjudged you, I had assumed you were familiar with that passage.

This is a really scary attitude. You're saying that in order for you to examine your beliefs - beliefs that between the two of you at least, contradict each other - you won't listen to me point out that they contradict each other, unless I am also a Christian? That's really disturbing. What makes you so mighty?

You're really going to tell me that only another Christian can point out the flaw in your logic, and and at the same time you're going to tell me that you don't believe yourself greater than I, a non-Christian?

You guys are so unbelievably arrogant.

OK. Sure aiki strongly wants to put right what he can see is wrong, but it doesn't necessarily equate to wanting to be greater than you.

And who is he to claim what is right and wrong? Or for that matter, who am I to question what a Christian says is right and wrong? I'm not saying the two of you want to be greater than I, just that you hold yourselves as greater, holier than I.

You're not.

 

[oi_antz]

No you wouldn't. Clearly, you'd prefer to dictate my ideas on that.

This is not true, I mean what I said. This is telling though. My purpose was to make you think decisively and list these motives so that you can see a pattern and confess (acknowledge) they are not of spiritual pursuit therefore not coming from the Christian spirit. After these motives are listed, it would become apparent and scriptures could be used to demonstrate so.

But I'm not judging you! I am judging your claims as claims. How am I supposed to believe that one person A's claims are true, if person B has just as much authority on the matter and claims something completely different? You cannot both be right. Before you come to me and dictate to me what I should believe, stop for a second and see if you agree on what I am supposed to believe and why I am supposed to believe it, because I can't believe both of your stories at once! Give up on "Because I said so!" and think about why your stories are different.

• What beliefs are you talking about, that you have said I am dictating that you should believe?
• You have said here "you can't both be right" - which is a judgement of at least one of us. Whereas if you had your own view of the story straight, you would be putting us right, and you might even be able to do so without any judgement.
• Did you really just overlook the point I made of the subtleties? Check it: heaven is promised generally but not specifically. Who is it that is promising heaven? Any such person is claiming higher authority than me.

This is a really scary attitude. You're saying that in order for you to examine your beliefs - beliefs that between the two of you at least, contradict each other - you won't listen to me point out that they contradict each other, unless I am also a Christian? That's really disturbing. What makes you so mighty?

That's not what I am saying. I am telling you that you are not fit to make the judgement you are making. For instance, you haven't actually demonstrated a contradiction, which means you haven't attempted to identify the error. Then it is a complaint without giving advice. Criticism, judgement. I don't really judge your value as a teacher based on your religious identity, but on the value of your remarks. The remarks you have made to this regard do not contain useful advice.

You're really going to tell me that only another Christian can point out the flaw in your logic, and and at the same time you're going to tell me that you don't believe yourself greater than I, a non-Christian?

You guys are so unbelievably arrogant.

Yet, you haven't pointed to any flaw in logic, but only complained because you do not understand what we are saying. I am sorry JGG, that you are not receiving my voice. Probably this will continue until you can forgive me. You surely are unwilling to cooperate this week, in contrast to when you began this thread. I know that when this happens we are not aware of it while others are.

And who is he to claim what is right and wrong?

I dare not answer that, ask him.

Or for that matter, who am I to question what a Christian says is right and wrong?

You are the one who will stand before Jesus and give answers why when you asked us for help then you accused us of being inconsistent, and therefore justifying why you did not exercise faith. While I will be right beside you before Him too, I am aware that my words to you here should be blameless.

I'm not saying the two of you want to be greater than I, just that you hold yourselves as greater, holier than I.

You're not.

It naturally asks why you have needed to say this though. Plus, I am not of the type to hold greater or lesser of people due to any stereotype, but to acknowledge personal traits: humbleness, truthfulness, grace, love etc. These are the things which I admire, that places a person in higher esteem in my view. You have received this higher esteem from me for several years if you will see so, because of your humbleness, your godly-type love, and understanding/kind nature. You have been honest and open too, though also actively avoiding the certain conclusion that will reconcile you with Christ. Aiki can speak for himself, so I will not address your view of him here. If he doesn't address this, please draw his attention to this, it is possible he will only be looking at your comments to him and not reading my comments to you.

 

[JGG]

You have said here "you can't both be right" - which is a judgement of at least one of us. Whereas if you had your own view of the story straight, you would be putting us right, and you might even be able to do so without any judgement.

It's not a judgment on the person making the claim, but on the claim itself.

Who is promising heaven? Everlasting life is an undeserved gift!

Compare that to this thread, where I was told that Christians, unlike everyone else, do not deserve to be judged because they are saved by Christ. In that thread, the entire concept of a Just God hinged on the claim that Christians get what they deserve, and non-Christians get what they deserve, thus God is Just.

Now you tell me Everlasting Life is an undeserved gift. Which means that the previous claim of a Just God is contradicted. If neither non-Christians, nor Christians deserve Everlasting Life, but Christians receive it anyway, then God is not Just.

Which of you is right? I don't know. Maybe you're both wrong. But I don't need to have a stake into which is right to know that you can't both be. That is not a judgment on a person, that's just logic.

Throw on top of that the number of times I have heard Christians say in one way or another: "Just put your faith in Jesus Christ and you will be Saved." That is someone issuing a promise: Do this, and you will receive that.

Heck, it's the basis of the thread.

But that isn't even my point. My point is that in cases where you and another person make contradictory claims, I am not judging you, I'm not even judging the claims on their own. I am simply pointing out that two contradictory claims cannot both be true. And I don't have to be a Christian to know that.

That's not what I am saying. I am telling you that you are not fit to make the judgement you are making.

Yes, I am. I understand what happens when two claims contradict each other.

For instance, you haven't actually demonstrated a contradiction, which means you haven't attempted to identify the error. Then it is a complaint without giving advice. Criticism, judgement. I don't really judge your value as a teacher based on your religious identity, but on the value of your remarks. The remarks you have made to this regard do not contain useful advice.

Yet, you haven't pointed to any flaw in logic, but only complained because you do not understand what we are saying. I am sorry JGG, that you are not receiving my voice. Probably this will continue until you can forgive me. You surely are unwilling to cooperate this week, in contrast to when you began this thread. I know that when this happens we are not aware of it while others are.

No, the problem is I understand what you are saying. I'm concerned that Christians don't really understand what they're saying. I worry that Christians just improvise answers on the spot, that sound or feel good at the time, without any awareness of what other Christians claim, or what they, or others have claimed before. I worry that they get an answer, decide they are content with it, and never put thought to it again. And then after all that I will be talked down to because I fully admit that I don't have answers, but also don't see how the ones I'm getting make any sense.

You are the one who will stand before Jesus and give answers why when you asked us for help then you accused us of being inconsistent, and therefore justifying why you did not exercise faith.

But this is just another example of where you expect me to exercise faith in the messenger, instead of the message.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I am confused seeker, I have never heard of this concept before in the way you present it. There are many preachers that focus on the money etc, as you say, but I guide you to the teachings of Jesus. His reward for His death for our sins is us. Our reward for our repentance and submission to Him is His gift of His Holy Spirit, adoption into His Family and eternal life. Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

BeStill&Know:

You're right; I don't see how the so called prosperity Gospel squares with Scripture at all.

Instead of $$$, it would be far better if ppl concentrated on John 3.16!

 

[aiki]

That's not what I'm reading. The message I received boiled down to my favorite phrase: "Because I said so."

I don't have time for "because I said so."

I think the "message" you're getting from my words is more a reflection of you than me. What's more, it looks a lot like a deflection from the real import of my comments. No where did I offer "because I said so" as a rationale for my remarks. That is entirely your construction that you have put on my words. It seems that somehow I have come very near a sensitive spot that you seem very keen to protect. I can't help that, but I can tell you that "because I said so" was NOT the substance of my posts. I suspect, though, that on some level you already know this.

Selah.