For the glory of God.

[JGG]

So, in a sermon tonight I was told that we choose to do right over wrong, or good over evil to glorify God. We are to help others on their path to glorify God. We are to help those in need to glorify God. We should have faith in God because that glorifies God. We should do the right thing because doing the right thing will glorify God. And if we do these things we will be rewarded.

I started a thread a while ago where I explained my concern that it is difficult to talk about God without making analogies to money, wealth, finances or payment. I feel that for some reason we cannot separate the concept of God from money.

If we are supposed to do the right thing simply for the sake of glorifying God, if all glory goes to God, why do we expect a reward? Why does God offer a reward?

If I organize a charity or fundraiser event where I have agreed that all of the proceeds to go to an orphanage, should I then expect the orphanage to offer me a reward for all of my hard work?

(staff edit)

 

[com7fy8]

We are to help others on their path to glorify God. We are to help those in need to glorify God. We should have faith in God because that glorifies God.

Our Apostle Paul says we need > > >

"faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6).

So, in His love, we are caring not only about ourselves but all He desires and the good of any and all other people . . . since our faith is working through His all-loving love. Plus, Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

We should do the right thing because doing the right thing will glorify God. And if we do these things we will be rewarded.

"I am your exceedingly great reward", we have in certain translations of Genesis 15:1 So, I think the real deal is not how I get rewards, or if I will get any, but enjoying now how God is my Reward while I do loving in oneness and intimacy with Him in His love >

1 Corinthians 6:17

Romans 5:5

If we are supposed to do the right thing simply for the sake of glorifying God, if all glory goes to God, why do we expect a reward? Why does God offer a reward?

It is both; we have the best of everything, with God We do it for the sake of it, and we are rewarded, even though this is not the main focus of our faith. And, as Christians, rewards can include how God trusts us with people who need our help, as our reward for being faithful to Him. We are deeply rewarded when He uses us to do good to others, since we care as much about others as we care about our own selves.

"And His peace is our reward of obeying Him in this peace > Colossians 3:15."

Imagine a scenario where you arrive in front of Peter's gates. He says to you "You have done a wonderful job glorifying God. Unfortunately, there isn't really a heaven, or any afterlife. God appreciates all of your faith, but you will simply cease to exist now." Would you feel shortchanged? Would you feel like you have glorified God without purpose? Would you feel like you deserved better?

As I offer, God is already our Reward - - - while we are "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17) and doing all He has us doing in sharing with Him > Philippians 2:13.

So, your question is theoretical about what we already have.

But, "of course", if I could be with God in His own love, only for this life, this would be fine . . . except > "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." We in Jesus are already joined to Him in His almighty power and He is already changing us to become how Jesus is so pleasing to our Father . . . so that our Father will enjoy us for all eternity, like how He enjoys His own Son Jesus; so I will offer, that our Father is not going to just dump us after getting so into being one with us and enjoying us like He enjoys Jesus!!!

Now imagine that somehow I could convince you that there is no heaven, and no afterlife. In such a scenario, do you still have faith? Do you still work to glorify God?

I would, if God in me had me to do so. And He would be my Reward while I was submitting to how He shares with me in His love and guides me better than how I would live my own life. So, it certainly would be better than a self-produced life. And doing things for His glory would not be a thing of me making up ideas, myself, about how to glorify Him. I need the LORD to guide me so I do what He in His heart knows He desires. And, like I say, most of all our Father enjoys His Son Jesus, and now He is changing us His children to become like Jesus so He can enjoy us for eternity like He enjoys Jesus > Romans 8:29, 1 John 4:17-18.

So, we will be His reward for saving us and conforming us to the image of His own Son Jesus. I offer, He won't throw this reward away.

But, yes, we can be selfish, even hoping to get financial rewards in this life, for doing things for God. We do need to be first about seeking God for Himself, not only trying to use Him or bribe Him into giving us what we want.

 

[Look Up]

Leaving aside for the moment the orphanage question on grounds that it seems to introduce a topic separate from the rest, it is difficult still for me to know quite what you are after, given my uncertainties as to your definitions and assumptions and how you intend hypothetical situations to be read.

At the same time I have also perhaps similarly to you struggled to understand the place of heavenly rewards or for that matter the need for being a disciple of Jesus in this life if Jesus saves from sin (in which salvation we are passive recipients). What may help in part--or at least what seems to help me--is to consider that (1) no Christian good work is done in the absence of divine grace in the doing, (2) God defines what is good and whatever good is done is good because God says it is rather than because we feel it must be (or not as the case may be), (3) one may doubt that works good in name and appearance are good or wholly good in fact if solely motivated by desire for divine just (or extravagant?) compensation (whatever that might mean by case), and (4) heavenly rewards have a value in a holy sense rather than a profane and self-centered one.

Heavenly gold and jewels may be metaphorical for "true riches" (cf. Luke 16:11) of which forgiveness of sin and life in the presence of God may be examples. If a mother's love for her young child may be hard to place in economic-equivalent terms (say $20 per hour of hugs and playing?), how much more difficult may it be to assign a monetary value to heavenly rewards even if in some cases heavenly rewards in the new heavens and new earth may include a sort of material or material-like component (the glory of heavenly bodies differing from that of the earthly ones).

But it is also hard to know quite how to address your proposed divine bait-and-switch of changing promised rewards to no rewards offered. That seems rather contrary to the truthfulness and faithfulness of God as He is. A bit easier might be to propose no reward offered from the start of our obligation even if that may miss some of your intent (for all I know). In such "easier" case God as the Potter has right over us as clay to do with us as He pleases, with right to demand our obedience, remembering again also that He cannot act in accord with what is contrary to who He is such that for example He is free not to do what He had said He would do.

Yet still I feel I am fishing in the dark since I am not confident I quite understand you or all of your drift. Nor on the other hand am I confident I quite understand how a human being (leaving Jesus aside) could rightly be said to "deserve" anything from God (other than punishment).

 

[JGG]

Sorry, I am trying to ascertain whether faith and the desire to follow God is really for its own sake, rather than the want of reward. Therefore, the easiest way to do that is to remove reward and see if faith remains.

 

[JGG]

Our Apostle Paul says we need > > >

"faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6).

So, in His love, we are caring not only about ourselves but all He desires and the good of any and all other people . . . since our faith is working through His all-loving love. Plus, Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

"I am your exceedingly great reward", we have in certain translations of Genesis 15:1 So, I think the real deal is not how I get rewards, or if I will get any, but enjoying now how God is my Reward while I do loving in oneness and intimacy with Him in His love >

1 Corinthians 6:17

Romans 5:5

It is both; we have the best of everything, with God We do it for the sake of it, and we are rewarded, even though this is not the main focus of our faith. And, as Christians, rewards can include how God trusts us with people who need our help, as our reward for being faithful to Him. We are deeply rewarded when He uses us to do good to others, since we care as much about others as we care about our own selves.

"And His peace is our reward of obeying Him in this peace > Colossians 3:15."

As I offer, God is already our Reward - - - while we are "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17) and doing all He has us doing in sharing with Him > Philippians 2:13.

So, your question is theoretical about what we already have.

But, "of course", if I could be with God in His own love, only for this life, this would be fine . . . except > "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." We in Jesus are already joined to Him in His almighty power and He is already changing us to become how Jesus is so pleasing to our Father . . . so that our Father will enjoy us for all eternity, like how He enjoys His own Son Jesus; so I will offer, that our Father is not going to just dump us after getting so into being one with us and enjoying us like He enjoys Jesus!!!

I would, if God in me had me to do so. And He would be my Reward while I was submitting to how He shares with me in His love and guides me better than how I would live my own life. So, it certainly would be better than a self-produced life. And doing things for His glory would not be a thing of me making up ideas, myself, about how to glorify Him. I need the LORD to guide me so I do what He in His heart knows He desires. And, like I say, most of all our Father enjoys His Son Jesus, and now He is changing us His children to become like Jesus so He can enjoy us for eternity like He enjoys Jesus > Romans 8:29, 1 John 4:17-18.

So, we will be His reward for saving us and conforming us to the image of His own Son Jesus. I offer, He won't throw this reward away.

But, yes, we can be selfish, even hoping to get financial rewards in this life, for doing things for God. We do need to be first about seeking God for Himself, not only trying to use Him or bribe Him into giving us what we want.

I find I agree with this. If God simply asks us to do good, isn't doing good its own reward? If we want faith is that not a reward unto itself? If we love God and want to make Him joyful, isn't doing good all we can hope for?

Salvation is nice I suppose, but why is that the focus? Why is that the good news? Shouldn't it be that Jesus has revealed the way, the truth and the light (or at least, the way, the truth, and the light as I can't help but interpret it)? Do we need God to sweeten the pot by offering us a reward for doing the right thing and/or having faith?

I admit, I have always been turned off by the notion of heaven. I am struggling to find faith because I'm struggling to find faith. I'm not struggling for salvation.

 

[Look Up]

Sorry, I am trying to ascertain whether faith and the desire to follow God is really for its own sake, rather than the want of reward. Therefore, the easiest way to do that is to remove reward and see if faith remains.

If the above constitutes a response to my above post, I have already expressed sympathy for your expressed view and, as one who believes heavenly rewards exist, uncertainty how to resolve why. But I have also suggested we question the nature of heavenly rewards in comparison to earthly analogies.

On a kind of flip side, the book of Job wrestles with the question how one can maintain faith in the goodness and justice of God in the presence of suffering which to all appearance does not derive from one's wrongdoing, here on the part of Job. Job is unaware (as typically in human life) of the heavenly wager between Satan and God, yet suffers, if you will, "anti-reward" for a righteous life that God Himself, the text says, acknowledges Job has lived (righteous and upright).

Under extended severe suffering and the duress of repeated "friend" accusations, Job eventually accuses God of injustice in his case (while at the same time realizing no one can be just before God), demanding God answer to him. God finally appears to Job, reminds Job of who he is and who God is, at which Job repents and is restored to more than his former prosperity.

There was a time, that is, early in Job's suffering period in which Job's position may be characterized by what he tells his wife, "the LORD has given, and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD." As one who had long lived a righteous life (even in God's eyes), Job has faith in God despite his loss and agony (a position the text seems to approve).

 

[JGG]

If the above constitutes a response to my above post, I have already expressed sympathy for your expressed view and, as one who believes heavenly rewards exist, uncertainty how to resolve why. But I have also suggested we question the nature of heavenly rewards in comparison to earthly analogies.

On a kind of flip side, the book of Job wrestles with the question how one can maintain faith in the goodness and justice of God in the presence of suffering which to all appearance does not derive from one's wrongdoing, here on the part of Job. Job is unaware (as typically in human life) of the heavenly wager between Satan and God, yet suffers, if you will, "anti-reward" for a righteous life that God Himself, the text says, approves (righteous and upright).

Under extended severe suffering and the duress of repeated "friend" accusations, Job eventually accuses God of injustice in his case (while at the same time realizing no one can be just before God), demanding God answer to him. God finally appears to Job, reminds Job of who he is and who God is, at which Job repents and is restored to more than his former prosperity.

There was a time, that is, early in Job's suffering period in which Job's position may be characterized by what he tells his wife, "the LORD has given, and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD." As one who had long lived a righteous life (even in God's eyes), Job has faith in God despite his loss and agony (a position the text seems to approve).

It's more to the thread in general.

 

[Look Up]

... Salvation is nice I suppose, but why is that the focus? Why is that the good news? Shouldn't it be that Jesus has revealed the way, the truth and the light (or at least, the way, the truth, and the light as I can't help but interpret it)?
...
I admit, I have always been turned off by the notion of heaven. I am struggling to find faith because I'm struggling to find faith. I'm not struggling for salvation.

The above encourages me to wonder how you define salvation and what it is you think God saves people from. The importance or relative importance of salvation would seem to depend on that.

I would suggest at the moment, correctly or incorrectly inferring various assumptions in the present context, that salvation is not reward. Reward implies receiving what is owed, but salvation (as I might define it) is never earned by the saved and never owed to the saved.

Think for example of mercy and guilt. Guilty action earns anti-reward (if you will), that is punishment. Mercy is not owed and may justly not be offered. But if mercy is given rather than just punishment, mercy is not reward, but something extraordinary and unmerited (cf. Titus 3:5). And then if one is not guilty there would be no need to desire or seek mercy.

Heaven in this sense is not reward per se either, but a grace or a thing accomplished by God's grace (among others). Grace is not reward either; it is above and beyond what is owed. Heaven is the presence of the Source of all good, that is God, and the absence of all that is evil.

I realize your struggle for faith is not an easy one and that the above may raise questions as well as answer them and that the discussion stands in danger of digressing from where ever you intended it to go. Nor do I have all the answers even to my own questions. But my response is a stab in a direction that seems warranted in context, and may help point to clarification at a definition level if nothing else.

 

[JGG]

The above encourages me to wonder how you define salvation and what it is you think God saves people from. The importance or relative importance of salvation would seem to depend on that.

I would suggest at the moment, correctly or incorrectly inferring various assumptions in the present context, that salvation is not reward. Reward implies receiving what is owed, but salvation (as I might define it) is never earned by the saved and never owed to the saved.

Think for example of mercy and guilt. Guilty action earns anti-reward (if you will), that is punishment. Mercy is not owed and may justly not be offered. But if mercy is given rather than just punishment, mercy is not reward, but something extraordinary and unmerited (cf. Titus 3:5). And then if one is not guilty there would be no need to desire or seek mercy.

Heaven in this sense is not reward per se either, but a grace or a thing accomplished by God's grace (among others). Grace is not reward either; it is above and beyond what is owed. Heaven is the presence of the Source of all good, that is God, and the absence of all that is evil.

I realize your struggle for faith is not an easy one and that the above may raise questions as well as answer them and that the discussion stands in danger of digressing from where ever you intended it to go. Nor do I have all the answers even to my own questions. But my response is a stab in a direction that seems warranted in context, and may help point to clarification at a definition level if nothing else.

I'm just looking off of the study sheet from Saturday: "We will be rewarded for our faith with everlasting life." The rest of the sermon was about how we will receive great rewards in heaven for using our God-given spiritual-gifts here on Earth.

1 Cor 3:12-14
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.

Often on here, salvation is sold to me as a "free gift", much like the football phone that Sports Illustrated used to throw in with a subscription.

And, I'm not sure that reward does imply something you've earned. I would say that's an award, or frankly, just payment. I would think that a reward could also be something that is given out of appreciation, or gratefulness, but not necessarily earned. Like returning a wallet, or finding a dog. It could also be an added incentive. I used to reward myself for finishing an assignment with a good meal. I didn't earn the meal by finishing the assignment. I paid for it with my own money, and the assignment needed to be finished regardless. The reward was an extra incentive for me to do something.

 

[Look Up]

I'm just looking off of the study sheet from Saturday: "We will be rewarded for our faith with everlasting life." The rest of the sermon was about how we will receive great rewards in heaven for using our God-given spiritual-gifts here on Earth.

1 Cor 3:12-14
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.

Often on here, salvation is sold to me as a "free gift", much like the football phone that Sports Illustrated used to throw in with a subscription.

And, I'm not sure that reward does imply something you've earned. I would say that's an award, or frankly, just payment. I would think that a reward could also be something that is given out of appreciation, or gratefulness, but not necessarily earned. Like returning a wallet, or finding a dog. It could also be an added incentive. I used to reward myself for finishing an assignment with a good meal. I didn't earn the meal by finishing the assignment. I paid for it with my own money, and the assignment needed to be finished regardless. The reward was an extra incentive for me to do something.

You have of course made various points worthwhile on their own merit(s), but as a response to my post, I recommend attending to the distinctions I am trying to make with words more than the semantics as may be used by others (hence my language about definitions--also recall the Job illustration). The distinctions have both conceptual and in this case often Scriptural backing even if the word "reward" may have other connotations as used elsewhere. However, you seem at points also to be using especially the word "reward" in ways that align in some degree with my points whatever variation in nuance (e.g., "just payment," "award," "incentive," "given out of appreciation").

But again, let's not get too hung up on semantics per se. I have in mind partly such passages as "it is the gift of God not by works lest anyone should boast" of Eph. 2:8-10 (as I suspect you are aware) or the words of Gabriel concerning the as-yet unborn Jesus: "He shall save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21).

Be that as it may, I think at least the way you represent the sermon, and perhaps the sermon itself, comes uncomfortably close (in my view) to confusing the doctrines of justification and sanctification. That perhaps for another thread, and not an easy thread. Also note that the 1 Cor. 3 passage refers to rewards in the afterlife or lack thereof for church leaders depending on how and why the leadership/church building is performed (especially morally or immorally).

If salvation as a free gift is presented "much like the football phone that Sports Illustrated used to throw in with a subscription," then I agree that something is wrong with the message or the way it is presented. That the prophesied death of the Incarnate God on a Roman cross and Resurrection from the dead should be cheapened into a trinket does not seem to comport with any substantive sense of faith, nor reckon with the significance of the cruciform life expected of disciples of Jesus, nor for that matter I suspect with the depth of human depravity. Rather the gift of salvation in Jesus is dearly bought and fundamental to the nature and love of the Creator God, again as well as a central paradigm for Christian ethics, not to mention central point of all history as far as the Christian is concerned. The cross both pays all and demands all.

I'm not sure we are coming closer to some form of closure or mutual understanding, but unfortunately for the moment I've got some other things I've got to do. I think you have some valid concerns, but can only hope to provide some conceptual alleviation. In the end I think and also as you suggest, faith remains or not--or faith is placed in one conceptual object or another.

 

[com7fy8]

If God simply asks us to do good, isn't doing good its own reward?

Yes, it is; but with God there is always more and better than we would expect and deserve. So, even if it is not necessary for us to be rewarded for doing something good, still God is generous so He rewards us

It "might" be like if you are married and your spouse gives you a kiss for doing something; well, you love each other, anyway; so you would kiss each other, anyway; but you have different ways of saying thank you Saying thank you is a reward; and God is humble; so He even may thank and reward us!!! It is about how God is humble, I now think.

So, it is wise and humble to thank Him.

If we want faith is that not a reward unto itself?

Certainly > but "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6). And if you love people, you praise and thank and reward them for doing things that they should do, "anyway". And "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16). So, in faith which works by means of love, we too reward others, though ones might even not deserve a reward > still, we might even praise and reward someone, but in order to encourage the person, and show we appreciate what the person does or could do. So rewards can multi-task. If God who is so greater than we are rewards us, He has His reasons - - "more and better than we might now understand". So . . . thank Him

Plus, rewards can help to show what is pleasing to God and what is not good.

If we love God and want to make Him joyful, isn't doing good all we can hope for?

But God is generous, and, in rewarding us, this is a way for Him to be personally sharing and relating with us. You might not need to talk with someone you understand very well; but because you love one another, you talk, anyway. Like this, our Father loves us; so He has things to do with us, for the sake of loving and sharing.

Salvation is nice I suppose, but why is that the focus? Why is that the good news?

Well, in order to get started with God, each person needs to be turned "from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God" > in Acts 26:18. So, there is getting saved, which is getting a person started with God. Then comes growing and correction and maturing and learning (Matthew 11:28-30) and doing what God wants. And yes a main reward is simply being with God and doing what He has us doing in sharing with Him. Also, as we serve one another, we can have the reward of sharing in love with one another who are His children. And I am finding that "even" while I do things with ones who do not know God, I more and more benefit from how I am becoming caring about them and enjoying being with them to help them; this benefit could be a "built-in" reward of loving and helping people who need Jesus.

Shouldn't it be that Jesus has revealed the way, the truth and the light (or at least, the way, the truth, and the light as I can't help but interpret it)?

Jesus has not only revealed, but Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through" Jesus, He says in John 14:6. Jesus Himself is the way to God > the way is not only certain beliefs and things we do.

Do we need God to sweeten the pot by offering us a reward for doing the right thing and/or having faith?

Well, because God is loving of His children, He "needs" to give us all that is good; because this is how He is, as our Father When you have a party for celebrating, you might have prizes for different things, though these rewards are not necessary > still, they are part of celebrating. Even if it is a wedding, with gifts for the bride and groom, still there may be ways that other people are given acknowledgements and rewards, though they were so delighted, "anyway", to do all they have done. It can be a way of thanking. "Giving the thanks and rewards can do you good!"

Our Father does all He does, because He is good.

I admit, I have always been turned off by the notion of heaven.

Heaven is where Jesus is on the throne, with our Father. So, it is where we will be with God, once we are resurrected. It is a practical thing, of being where Jesus is. And there is more about where we in Jesus will be for eternity. But Heaven, then, is certainly not only a "reward" which I seek mostly for my own good. It is where I can be with Jesus and with my brothers and sisters. It would not be a reward, really, if it was only where I would feel good and that's it. But love is so better.

I am struggling to find faith because I'm struggling to find faith. I'm not struggling for salvation.

But, like I offer, trusting in Jesus is needed > Ephesians 1:12. It's a "package deal" > there is faith and salvation and becoming adopted to become a child of God, and correction (Hebrews 12:4-11), and growing more and more to be like Jesus (Galatians 4:19).

I'm just looking off of the study sheet from Saturday: "We will be rewarded for our faith with everlasting life."

You might feed on Galatians 6:7-8.

The rest of the sermon was about how we will receive great rewards in heaven for using our God-given spiritual-gifts here on Earth.

1 Cor 3:12-14
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.

Now, I notice, here in your quoted verse, that there is no direct mention of spiritual gifts. I offer > we do have spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, but also we have growth in grace of God's love which has all His abilities which we grow in > "all things" > Ephesians 4:15.

Often on here, salvation is sold to me as a "free gift",

It is free, bought by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross . . . free for us, then, I should say. Jesus paid it all!!!

And, I'm not sure that reward does imply something you've earned.

Why get technical? If God says He will reward us, be thankful and enjoy God's love is not "welfare love" which tries to make sure we get only what we need and only what, perhaps, we "deserve" or have a right to. So, it is good not to measure God by standards which we have learned in this world and as imperfect people.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

 

[Hospes]

...If God simply asks us to do good, isn't doing good its own reward? If we want faith is that not a reward unto itself? If we love God and want to make Him joyful, isn't doing good all we can hope for?...

JGG,
You ask good and significant questions. (Given some of this forum, it makes me want to thank you. ) Here's a bit of my thinking; hope it helps.

Taking "reward" to mean something good to which we have no entitlement, then reward is the same as, or is a subset of, grace. (I define grace as any undeserved good bestowed by one person to another.) For the person reconciled to God through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ himself is the ultimate reward. Look at how the Apostle Paul states this:

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him...(Philippians 3:7-8 ESV)​

Though God generously gives other rewards, all are nothing - i.e. "counted as loss" - compared to gaining our Highest Treasure.

Recognizing the rewards God gives us fires up our gratitude to him and motivates us to esteem him and praise him, resulting in him being glorified by us. God being glorified is His goal.

Again, hope this helps.

 

[JGG]

I'm not sure it is helping. Sorry.

I'm a musician. Not long ago I was playing a gig in a blues bar about once a month with my band. We would get paid about $80. I would receive about $15 or so of that. I would buy a beer with 5 of it, and then spend the rest on gas.

If someone were to offer me $10,000 for a gig, that would be the "ultimate reward", and I'm sure I would also take it, but I would know that I would still play for $15. In fact, I'd play for free because I loved playing. I know other people who would demand more money up front, or demand more after the fact. I sometimes felt bad for those people because it seemed they didn't have as much fun as I had. I loved playing, so it was its own reward. And there's a danger to getting paid to do something you love. You tend to love it less, or not love it unless you're getting enough money to do it.

My question isn't so much about God's generosity, but our own. To continue using my analogy, would we play for free? If God didn't offer the "Ultimate Reward" would we still be interested in playing? Or if God only offered us $15 (I don't know what that would correspond to, those rewards far less than the Ultimate Reward)? Would we play, or walk away? Do we play because we love to play, or because we expect a reward for doing so?

 

[com7fy8]

Yeah, JGG, that's an interesting challenge One thing I think of is you might play for less for someone who does not have so much money, or one whose customers have less money; so if you play for less the owner can charge less from customers for food or entry fee.

Have you done or tried any church worship music? . . . alone or in a service?

My question isn't so much about God's generosity, but our own. To continue using my analogy, would we play for free? If God didn't offer the "Ultimate Reward" would we still be interested in playing? Or if God only offered us $15 (I don't know what that would correspond to, those rewards far less than the Ultimate Reward)? Would we play, or walk away? Do we play because we love to play, or because we expect a reward for doing so?

Would I play for free, even if there would not be an "Ultimate Reward"? Now I do things for our church, and alone I look to God for correction and guiding to do whatsoever He wants; but I do not think about getting the "Ultimate Reward". I am motivated simply by being in His love now so I can do something well for Him and with people.

He satisfies me in His love and peace to do what He has me doing. So, actually, I get rewarded even before I do something

So, anything He has me do in His love is rewarded, "automatically".

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

About rewards "far less than the Ultimate Reward" >

I thought of how Jesus in one parable says that a nobleman trusted each of his servants with a mina > Luke 19:12-27 > if a servant invested his mina, then for each mina he could give back to the nobleman, he got a whole city to rule, as his reward. So, it was practical for the nobleman to reward whoever served him well. But, also, I can see, it would be a reward for me to not only be making money, but to have people to rule in love. The loving would be the real reward >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

 

[oi_antz]

Wisdom says profit is necessary for survival, and this is true in every way. In terms of life now and hereafter, it is considered wise to invest what we are entrusted with. Money is easiest to use when describing profit and investment. Profit and investment exist without money though. If the vegetable garden does not produce, or if the digestive system is not efficient enough, then there is a depletion of energy and we cannot survive.

In the same way life now and hereafter is seen as the potential to invest, and is easily described using analogies of money.

It is accepted that heaven will contain those who despise evil and love to do good. It is seen that the present life presents opportunity for us to exercise that nature or to indulge in evils and refuse to do good (as law permits that we may refuse to feed those who are starving).

Our natural desires are for our own comfort. Sin tempts us to exercise those desires when it is harmful. In heaven, there are those who have self-control, because their spiritual desires are more important than their selfish desires. Whereas the present life in that view is seen as temporary, the material view see's life as precious and gratification to be maximised while the opportunity exists (investment in hereafter is also seen as a gamble).

Those sermons you are describing probably have strong undertones of encouragement to persevere, because it is a treacherous road with many temptations, it is easy to fall into sin, and when that happens it can have grave everlasting costs. Conversely, due to the nature of profit, you can invest your efforts to grow God's cause, so that He will have many more joyful people to share His love with, and because you have cared to do this for Him, and have made that more important than your own selfish desires, He will love you all the more.

 

[JGG]

Wisdom says profit is necessary for survival, and this is true in every way. In terms of life now and hereafter, it is considered wise to invest what we are entrusted with. Money is easiest to use when describing profit and investment. Profit and investment exist without money though. If the vegetable garden does not produce, or if the digestive system is not efficient enough, then there is a depletion of energy and we cannot survive.

In the same way life now and hereafter is seen as the potential to invest, and is easily described using analogies of money.

It is accepted that heaven will contain those who despise evil and love to do good. It is seen that the present life presents opportunity for us to exercise that nature or to indulge in evils and refuse to do good (as law permits that we may refuse to feed those who are starving).

Our natural desires are for our own comfort. Sin tempts us to exercise those desires when it is harmful. In heaven, there are those who have self-control, because their spiritual desires are more important than their selfish desires. Whereas the present life in that view is seen as temporary, the material view see's life as precious and gratification to be maximised while the opportunity exists (investment in hereafter is also seen as a gamble).

Those sermons you are describing probably have strong undertones of encouragement to persevere, because it is a treacherous road with many temptations, it is easy to fall into sin, and when that happens it can have grave everlasting costs. Conversely, due to the nature of profit, you can invest your efforts to grow God's cause, so that He will have many more joyful people to share His love with, and because you have cared to do this for Him, and have made that more important than your own selfish desires, He will love you all the more.

Is it fair to say that God says to make an investment of faith, and if we do there will be an enormous payout for us in the afterlife? Far greater than there would be in our world?

Would it still be worthwhile to invest in faith if we were told that there was absolutely no payout payout for us in the afterlife, but some payout in this world?

Or is the investment of faith merely to obtain personal profit in the hereafter?

It seems to me that spirituality is the one area where survival is not a necessity.

 

[JGG]

Yeah, JGG, that's an interesting challenge One thing I think of is you might play for less for someone who does not have so much money, or one whose customers have less money; so if you play for less the owner can charge less from customers for food or entry fee.

Have you done or tried any church worship music? . . . alone or in a service?

Would I play for free, even if there would not be an "Ultimate Reward"? Now I do things for our church, and alone I look to God for correction and guiding to do whatsoever He wants; but I do not think about getting the "Ultimate Reward". I am motivated simply by being in His love now so I can do something well for Him and with people.

He satisfies me in His love and peace to do what He has me doing. So, actually, I get rewarded even before I do something

So, anything He has me do in His love is rewarded, "automatically".

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

You have me up until here.

but...

About rewards "far less than the Ultimate Reward" >

I thought of how Jesus in one parable says that a nobleman trusted each of his servants with a mina > Luke 19:12-27 > if a servant invested his mina, then for each mina he could give back to the nobleman, he got a whole city to rule, as his reward. So, it was practical for the nobleman to reward whoever served him well. But, also, I can see, it would be a reward for me to not only be making money, but to have people to rule in love. The loving would be the real reward >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

Suppose the nobleman said go out and invest your mina and bring it back to me. For each mina a servant came back with the nobleman was happy, and congratulated the servant. And end.

Can we make this version of the story make sense, or does it require the gift of rule over cities to make it make sense to us? Are we only capable of being noble if we expect something in return?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So, in a sermon tonight I was told that we choose to do right over wrong, or good over evil to glorify God. We are to help others on their path to glorify God. We are to help those in need to glorify God. We should have faith in God because that glorifies God. We should do the right thing because doing the right thing will glorify God. And if we do these things we will be rewarded.

I started a thread a while ago where I explained my concern that it is difficult to talk about God without making analogies to money, wealth, finances or payment. I feel that for some reason we cannot separate the concept of God from money.

If we are supposed to do the right thing simply for the sake of glorifying God, if all glory goes to God, why do we expect a reward? Why does God offer a reward?

If I organize a charity or fundraiser event where I have agreed that all of the proceeds to go to an orphanage, should I then expect the orphanage to offer me a reward for all of my hard work?

(staff edit)

Hello JGG,

Good to see you back...with questions.

From what I can tell, Jesus and the Apostles had no problem differentiating the concept of God from money. In fact, we see Jesus telling us that we can't worship God and Mammon--we can only love one OR the other, but not both at the same time.

Additionally, I think the New Testament pretty much gives us the suggestion that the reward for serving God is.........God Himself (focusing through the person of Jesus Himself). Even I, for instance, think of the reward of faith as the opportunity to be given eternal life with Jesus; it's not just the 'idea' of eternal life that keeps me motivated, but being able to always be in the presence of Christ Himself. In other words, it's a matter of being given a 'Forever Relationship' with God that gives us the reason to be, and act, for what is right and good.

Anyway, that's how I view it. If you feel different on this, tell me, and I'll consider what's on your mind, JGG.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[JGG]

Hello JGG,

Good to see you back...with questions.

From what I can tell, Jesus and the Apostles had no problem differentiating the concept of God from money. In fact, we see Jesus telling us that we can't worship God and Mammon--we can only love one OR the other, but not both at the same time.

Additionally, I think the New Testament pretty much gives us the suggestion that the reward for serving God is.........God Himself (focusing through the person of Jesus Himself). Even I, for instance, think of the reward of faith as the opportunity to be given eternal life with Jesus; it's not just the 'idea' of eternal life that keeps me motivated, but being able to always be in the presence of Christ Himself. In other words, it's a matter of being given a 'Forever Relationship' with God that gives us the reason to be, and act, for what is right and good.

Anyway, that's how I view it. If you feel different on this, tell me, and I'll consider what's on your mind, JGG.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

I think my question comes down to whether or not you would continue to have faith, or act in a way that is right or good if you knew you would not receive a reward. Suppose Jesus did not offer you the opportunity for a forever relationship? Does having faith or doing right require a reward beside the act itself?

 

[oi_antz]

It seems to me that spirituality is the one area where survival is not a necessity.

Could you please explain what you are meaning with this? I am not certain I have understood this properly.