For the glory of God.

[oi_antz]

Do you think I should trust that every messenger is delivering the correct message?

I think you should test the message for what value it contains, without any judgement of the messenger, that's all.

 

[JGG]

I think you should test the message for what value it contains, without any judgement of the messenger, that's all.

Test it how? Against what? My values?

 

[JGG]

What is the basis for this conclusion? (I could have missed that it was already mentioned - then forgive and be patient). Thank you!

Let me put it this way, do you agree that some idolize heaven ahead of God?

 

[JGG]

JGG, have you read C. S. Lewis' The Weight of Glory? Given your questions, I think you may find it useful.

I liked it. It has some ideas I could play around with.

 

[oi_antz]

Test it how? Against what? My values?

That's a good start. But then there is truth too, which will sometimes reveal that our own values ought to be adjusted. For instance, with that second sentence, it doesn't really matter who says it, whether it be me, him, her, a child, a Hindu.. anyone at all can say that, and you can test it to find that there is value in the message.

Let me put it this way, do you agree that some idolize heaven ahead of God?

I certainly do expect so. I do meet people who seem to be quite conceited of their situation that they believe they are comfortably aligned for heaven, and some such people appear to have committed themselves to a church and satisfied various rites of passage because of that goal. As for me, I was shown this week that I have been idolising truth above God. That was interesting! (Specifically Romans 12:1 and John 12:25 - whereby in doing what I am rightfully entitled to do, but whereas God has instructed me to sacrifice those rights and permit another to dominate, I am not worshipping Him with obedience).

 

[JGG]

That's a good start. But then there is truth too, which will sometimes reveal that our own values ought to be adjusted. For instance, with that second sentence, it doesn't really matter who says it, whether it be me, him, her, a child, a Hindu.. anyone at all can say that, and you can test it to find that there is value in the message.

I asked this question of someone else, but I'll put it to you as well: If I read something Christ says, and interpret as truth, and you disagree with it, who should I listen to, you or Christ?

I certainly do expect so. I do meet people who seem to be quite conceited of their situation that they believe they are comfortably aligned for heaven, and some such people appear to have committed themselves to a church and satisfied various rites of passage because of that goal. As for me, I was shown this week that I have been idolising truth above God. That was interesting! (Specifically Romans 12:1 and John 12:25 - whereby in doing what I am rightfully entitled to do, but whereas God has instructed me to sacrifice those rights and permit another to dominate, I am not worshipping Him with obedience).

So, if we can be tempted to put the promise of heaven in front of God, and we can also be Christlike without the promise of heaven...why promise heaven?

 

[bling]

Can't say as I agree with you, aiki. I view God as a loving God seeking always to promote beauty. When you love someone, you do not coerce them by threats or bribes. "Love me or I'll eternally damn you" is not a true statement of love. Yet many Christians hold with that kind of logic. That's because traditional Christianity saw God as the Ruthless Moralist, Unmoved Mover, and Ruling Caesar, all wrapped up in one. If I had to pick a metaphor for how I see God, I would say God is the Cosmic Artist, luring the universe to higher forms of beauty. I do believe in an afterlife. However, I see no need for Hell. There has been enough pain and suffering already. I realize that the OT does present God as vengeful, unloving, and very sadistic. However, I do not believe the OT is an accurate revelation of God.

You might want to read my post 113, since beauty is not God's objective.

 

[oi_antz]

I asked this question of someone else, but I'll put it to you as well: If I read something Christ says, and interpret as truth, and you disagree with it, who should I listen to, you or Christ?

Ultimately you will answer to Him, so you should listen to Him and pray for me, that I will come to acknowledge Him. Has this happened yet?

So, if we can be tempted to put the promise of heaven in front of God, and we can also be Christlike without the promise of heaven...why promise heaven?

Who is promising heaven? Everlasting life is an undeserved gift!

 

[aiki]

Is it an accurate description. It's not fair to say here's my explanation, if you don't accept it then it's because you're cynical. I'm not going to lie, I'm looking for flaws in our thinking here. We should all be looking for flaws in our thinking.

How is your plan of bring them into the church with fear of hell, and then get them to love God, not bait & switch? It is my contention that it is not bait & switch because most Christians never switch.

Nevertheless, this is a troublesome idea either way.

Justice is a fearful thing sometimes. Especially if you're on the wrong side of it. The person who never murders has no reason to fear the judgment and punishment that falls - perfectly rightly - upon a murderer. But one who is guilty of murder ought to be fearful of the demands of justice against their evil deed. "There is none righteous, no, not one," the Bible says. We all stand as guilty sinners before God under the demands of His holy, perfect justice for judgement and punishment. And we ought to be afraid; our terrible sin has incurred a terrible penalty! Is this all, though, just the set up for a divine bait-and-switch? I don't think so. God's divine punishment upon our sin is the necessary expression of His justice and holiness. God, isn't merely manipulating people into a relationship with Him through the threat of eternal judgement. Hell is a right and necessary expression of God's justice. It exists, not because God wants to scare people into heaven, but because our sin exists.

But this isn't the sum total of the message of the Gospel. It is only the beginning.

1 John 4:9-10
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Romans 5:8
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Colossians 1:21-22
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--

If the Gospel is properly preached, the fear, and condemnation, and guilt we rightly feel as wicked sinners before a just and holy God gives way to joy, and thankfulness, and love as we see that God is not only just but loving, too.

Do most Christians, as you assert, never leave the fear of hell behind as they enter into fellowship with God through faith in His Son? I don't know how you could say that unless you knew most Christians. Most of the Christians I know truly love their Heavenly Father and are not in the least motivated in their obedience to Him by fear of Him.

So, if I read scripture, something specific that Jesus said, and become convinced that the Bible is telling me something, and you disagree with it, should I listen to you or Jesus?

I'm not sure what you mean by "become convinced the Bible is telling me something." If you mean that you have considered what Jesus said in its immediate context and allow that context to qualify, clarify and define his meaning, and you have reconciled what you think his meaning is with the broader context of all of Scripture, and you have taken into account the grammar and common usage of Jesus's terms, and the cultural context and type of writing in which Jesus's words appear, then, if I have a contrary view to your own, you are certainly within your rights to challenge my view.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

Can't say as I agree with you, aiki. I view God as a loving God seeking always to promote beauty. When you love someone, you do not coerce them by threats or bribes. "Love me or I'll eternally damn you" is not a true statement of love. Yet many Christians hold with that kind of logic. That's because traditional Christianity saw God as the Ruthless Moralist, Unmoved Mover, and Ruling Caesar, all wrapped up in one. If I had to pick a metaphor for how I see God, I would say God is the Cosmic Artist, luring the universe to higher forms of beauty. I do believe in an afterlife. However, I see no need for Hell. There has been enough pain and suffering already. I realize that the OT does present God as vengeful, unloving, and very sadistic. However, I do not believe the OT is an accurate revelation of God.

I don't think you've been reading the New Testament, then.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Romans 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Romans 2:5-9
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Ephesians 5:3-7
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;
4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Colossians 3:5-6
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

And so on. God was not unloving, nor was He sadistic in the Old Testament. He was the same merciful, gracious, holy, just, loving and wrathful God in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament. It seems you have created a god after your own human preferences, who is, therefore, no God at all. The God revealed to us in Scripture is very different from the god you seem to think exists.

Selah.

 

[JGG]

Justice is a fearful thing sometimes. Especially if you're on the wrong side of it. The person who never murders has no reason to fear the judgment and punishment that falls - perfectly rightly - upon a murderer. But one who is guilty of murder ought to be fearful of the demands of justice against their evil deed. "There is none righteous, no, not one," the Bible says. We all stand as guilty sinners before God under the demands of His holy, perfect justice for judgement and punishment. And we ought to be afraid; our terrible sin has incurred a terrible penalty! Is this all, though, just the set up for a divine bait-and-switch?

I'm not accusing God of this, I'm accusing Christians of a bait-and-switch.

I don't think so. God's divine punishment upon our sin is the necessary expression of His justice and holiness. God, isn't merely manipulating people into a relationship with Him through the threat of eternal judgement. Hell is a right and necessary expression of God's justice. It exists, not because God wants to scare people into heaven, but because our sin exists.

But are we? If we were terrified of sin existing, why would we know about heaven and hell? Would we still be afraid of sin if we were not aware of them?

If the Gospel is properly preached, the fear, and condemnation, and guilt we rightly feel as wicked sinners before a just and holy God gives way to joy, and thankfulness, and love as we see that God is not only just but loving, too.

Do most Christians, as you assert, never leave the fear of hell behind as they enter into fellowship with God through faith in His Son? I don't know how you could say that unless you knew most Christians. Most of the Christians I know truly love their Heavenly Father and are not in the least motivated in their obedience to Him by fear of Him.

Do they believe they will not be judged for their sin? Do they believe they will receive the reward of heaven instead? That's what I'm saying motivates them if you recall. Do you? If so, why would you fear judgment, justice, sin or hell? These things mean nothing to you, because you will be rewarded.

I'm not sure what you mean by "become convinced the Bible is telling me something." If you mean that you have considered what Jesus said in its immediate context and allow that context to qualify, clarify and define his meaning, and you have reconciled what you think his meaning is with the broader context of all of Scripture, and you have taken into account the grammar and common usage of Jesus's terms, and the cultural context and type of writing in which Jesus's words appear, then, if I have a contrary view to your own, you are certainly within your rights to challenge my view.

So essentially, if someone disagrees with you on scripture, it's because they have not considered what Jesus said in it's immediate context, or have not allowed that context to qualify, clarify or define His meaning, or have not reconciled what they think His meaning is with the broader context of all of Scripture, or have not taken into account the grammar or common usage of Jesus' terms, or have not understood the cultural context or type of writing in which Jesus' words appear? Only then may someone disagree with your view?

This tells me two things: I shouldn't even bother reading this book when you can just dictate my beliefs to me. The Bible is next to useless as a source of information.

 

[JGG]

Ultimately you will answer to Him, so you should listen to Him and pray for me, that I will come to acknowledge Him. Has this happened yet?

Nope, but interesting response. Clashes with the others I receive.

Who is promising heaven? Everlasting life is an undeserved gift!

You guys really need to get your story straight on this.

 

[oi_antz]

Nope, but interesting response. Clashes with the others I receive.

OK. Perhaps there is a valuable understanding in the why.

You guys really need to get your story straight on this.

Jesus made an interesting observation that comes to mind: when you judge others, you will be judged with the same measure.

 

[JGG]

OK. Perhaps there is a valuable understanding in the why.

I have some ideas.

Jesus made an interesting observation that comes to mind: when you judge others, you will be judged with the same measure.

I'm not sure how that applies. If Christians are all giving me different claims that clash with each other, then which of you do I believe? You all claim to speak truth, but you can't all be doing so.

I'm not judging the claimants, I'm judging the claims.

 

[aiki]

I'm not accusing God of this, I'm accusing Christians of a bait-and-switch.

Ah, I see. Well, I'm afraid the Gospel isn't well-explained these days and so often the bait-and-switch you describe may well go on. But you are right also that this isn't a problem on God's end, but on ours.

"But are we? If we were terrified of sin existing, why would we know about heaven and hell? Would we still be afraid of sin if we were not aware of them? "

I don't understand why you think being terrified of sin should prevent us from knowing about heaven and hell. Would we be afraid to sin if heaven and hell did not exist? I don't think we would. Animals have no conception of heaven or hell and kill, rape, and steal and otherwise abuse each other without compunction. But we aren't animals; we are people made in God's image, which, among other things, confers upon us moral responsibility and the capacity to understand justice, sin punishment and heaven and hell.

"Do they believe they will not be judged for their sin? Do they believe they will receive the reward of heaven instead? That's what I'm saying motivates them if you recall. Do you? If so, why would you fear judgment, justice, sin or hell? These things mean nothing to you, because you will be rewarded."

Do they believe they will not be judged for their sin? They have "passed from death unto life," as the Bible says, and are no longer under the condemnation and wrath of God. They are God's children and deal with Him as their Heavenly Father, not as their Holy Judge. Christ has suffered for them the "due penalty of their sin" and has perfectly satisfied God's justice, so God does not look at the born-again person as an object of His judgment.

I am motivated in my walk with God by the Person of God Himself. He loves me and I love Him and that is the basic motivation for my life lived as a Christian. The ultimate reward of the Christian life is God Himself, not some heavenly crown, or mansion in the sky, or whatever.

"So essentially, if someone disagrees with you on scripture, it's because they have not considered what Jesus said in it's immediate context, or have not allowed that context to qualify, clarify or define His meaning, or have not reconciled what they think His meaning is with the broader context of all of Scripture, or have not taken into account the grammar or common usage of Jesus' terms, or have not understood the cultural context or type of writing in which Jesus' words appear? Only then may someone disagree with your view?

This tells me two things: I shouldn't even bother reading this book when you can just dictate my beliefs to me. The Bible is next to useless as a source of information."

Why should one who has not made the effort to properly and thoroughly understand God's Word be able to dismiss the views on Scripture of the one who has? Does that seem reasonable to you? Why should you with only a cursory reading and understanding of the Bible be allowed to hold whatever views on it you like unchallenged? That seems patently silly to me...

Selah.

 

[JGG]

Ah, I see. Well, I'm afraid the Gospel isn't well-explained these days and so often the bait-and-switch you describe may well go on. But you are right also that this isn't a problem on God's end, but on ours.

"But are we? If we were terrified of sin existing, why would we know about heaven and hell? Would we still be afraid of sin if we were not aware of them? "

I don't understand why you think being terrified of sin should prevent us from knowing about heaven and hell. Would we be afraid to sin if heaven and hell did not exist? I don't think we would. Animals have no conception of heaven or hell and kill, rape, and steal and otherwise abuse each other without compunction. But we aren't animals; we are people made in God's image, which, among other things, confers upon us moral responsibility and the capacity to understand justice, sin punishment and heaven and hell.

"Do they believe they will not be judged for their sin? Do they believe they will receive the reward of heaven instead? That's what I'm saying motivates them if you recall. Do you? If so, why would you fear judgment, justice, sin or hell? These things mean nothing to you, because you will be rewarded."

Do they believe they will not be judged for their sin? They have "passed from death unto life," as the Bible says, and are no longer under the condemnation and wrath of God. They are God's children and deal with Him as their Heavenly Father, not as their Holy Judge. Christ has suffered for them the "due penalty of their sin" and has perfectly satisfied God's justice, so God does not look at the born-again person as an object of His judgment.

I am motivated in my walk with God by the Person of God Himself. He loves me and I love Him and that is the basic motivation for my life lived as a Christian. The ultimate reward of the Christian life is God Himself, not some heavenly crown, or mansion in the sky, or whatever.

"So essentially, if someone disagrees with you on scripture, it's because they have not considered what Jesus said in it's immediate context, or have not allowed that context to qualify, clarify or define His meaning, or have not reconciled what they think His meaning is with the broader context of all of Scripture, or have not taken into account the grammar or common usage of Jesus' terms, or have not understood the cultural context or type of writing in which Jesus' words appear? Only then may someone disagree with your view?

This tells me two things: I shouldn't even bother reading this book when you can just dictate my beliefs to me. The Bible is next to useless as a source of information."

Why should one who has not made the effort to properly and thoroughly understand God's Word be able to dismiss the views on Scripture of the one who has? Does that seem reasonable to you? Why should you with only a cursory reading and understanding of the Bible be allowed to hold whatever views on it you like unchallenged? That seems patently silly to me...

Selah.

Fine. You continue to think you stand way up there, and I'll pretend to sit way down here.

If you are the authority on God, I'm better of an atheist. I'm not kissing your ring.

Bye now.

 

[aiki]

Fine. You continue to think you stand way up there, and I'll pretend to sit way down here.

If you are the authority on God, I'm better of an atheist. I'm not kissing your ring.

Bye now.

??? That was a rather odd response...

 

[oi_antz]

I'm not sure how that applies. If Christians are all giving me different claims that clash with each other, then which of you do I believe? You all claim to speak truth, but you can't all be doing so.

Why believe any of us anyway? Judgement belongs to Him. We tell you what we understand, you can decide for yourself whether it makes sense, seems sincere, seems likely. Ultimately you are to answer to Jesus. You should believe Him.

I'm not judging the claimants, I'm judging the claims.

In saying we don't have our story straight, you are judging us. But you wouldn't be doing this if you had already got your story straight.

 

[oi_antz]

Fine. You continue to think you stand way up there, and I'll pretend to sit way down here.

If you are the authority on God, I'm better of an atheist. I'm not kissing your ring.

Bye now.

What does it signify to kiss a ring?

 

[JGG]

Why believe any of us anyway? Judgement belongs to Him. We tell you what we understand, you can decide for yourself whether it makes sense, seems sincere, seems likely. Ultimately you are to answer to Jesus. You should believe Him.

I don't know about you, but for me, Jesus only speaks through the Bible. And as I just learned, one cannot understand the Bible without jumping through hoops. Which apparently makes it a pretty useless book in this age.

In saying we don't have our story straight, you are judging us. But you wouldn't be doing this if you had already got your story straight.

How are you getting this?

If Person A tells me that he saw my car being stolen by a group of old black men wearing black hats and white shoes, and Person B tells me that he saw my car being stolen by a an young white woman wearing a pink hat and green shoes, it tells me that at least one of these guys don't have their story straight. At least one of them is wrong, if not both of them.

I'm not judging the people, in fact it doesn't matter who Person A, or Person B are. It is only their claims that matter.

Unless you can tell me how I'm judging the claimants not their claims.