Fire

[Catherineanne]

Fire changes the state of everything it touches and that's all it does, make up stories about fire if that's what you want after all the ancients did it all the time, which I think is where you get most of your ideas from, the past and even the distant past and perhaps even as far back as the bronze age when demons walked the earth.

Indeed so, except you forgot the energy bit from Year/Grade 5 Science. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, save in the form of energy. What you call 'changing state' is the release of energy.

Meanwhile I suspect you think your ideas are not at all derivative. Generated ex nihilo, perhaps?

Good for you.

A brain however can change things to make them become whatever that particular brain will accept, as we know some brains will accept more than others.

You have said it.

 

[Catherineanne]

One category of "dreamer" relates to the Torah as water, water runs downwards, from high to low, filling every nook and cranny on it,s way,
When it has reached the lowest parts it is still the same water.

What lovely imagery, R. Thanks for that!

 

[Robban]

Perhaps it's a little dirtier than when it started out having washed all those nooks and crannies on it's way down but as you say it's still water, however I fail to see what that tells us other than water runs downhill?

Here's some imagery for you Catherineanne, God is like a butterfly flitting from soul to soul touching them all with his love.

The people working in the Walt Disney studios can really make some wonderful imagery, I think they are responsible for the number of American Christians there are today, they keep the people dreaming and dreaming, all of them refusing to grow up and face the worlds reality, mind you who can blame them?

" What it tells us" is not important, unless you have right to speak for others, or maybe we are on trial, and you trying to convince a jury.

 

[Catherineanne]

Here's some imagery for you Catherineanne, God is like a butterfly flitting from soul to soul touching them all with his love.

Call me Cathy.

Nice try, wf, but this one would seem to contradict the omnipresence of God, and therefore does not really fit as an allegory of his love.

However, don't let that put you off; at least you are trying.

What happened to make you so angry?

 

[Catherineanne]

" What it tells us" is not important, unless you have right to speak for others, or maybe we are on trial, and you trying to convince a jury.

I think you will find he is trying to convince himself.

 

[awitch]

The significance of fire is going to vary from one Pagan to another and the context will be important.

It's typical for fire to be used for consecration, as well as representing change. I also use it as a sort of beacon - decorating ritual space.

 

[Catherineanne]

The significance of fire is going to vary from one Pagan to another and the context will be important.

It's typical for fire to be used for consecration, as well as representing change. I also use it as a sort of beacon - decorating ritual space.

Apostolic Christians do that last bit as well; we light candles just before a church service, and leave them burning until after it is finished. As you say, marking ritual space.

I think we use water and oil more often for consecration than fire, for obvious reasons, but we use candles a lot as well, to mark the coming of the Light of the World.

 

[yamin]

Stepping away from specifics, I think it is worth giving a Christian perspective on fire, and what it does. Perhaps even more importantly, what it does not do.

There are three types of baptism: water, Holy Spirit, and fire. Water baptism is obvious where one makes full surrender and acknowledgement of God's grace and so is purified of past sins. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an acquired process where Christians come under the anointing in the form of possessing both the gifts and fruits dispensed accordingly by God. The most important baptism is fire or in other words the understanding of true repentance. We all sin but wholeheartedly to be redeemed of sins Christians need to apply true repentance similar to gold being refined of its impurities in the burning process.

Come think of it, these particular baptisms represent the elements of the earth: water, fire, air, and earth. Although have not really thought out the earth element, in regards to air Christians understand Satan is the prince of the air whereas the Holy Spirit is symbolikc of wind. Anytime wind is formed the air is affected in some way or the other. In the same way, the baptism of the Holy Spirit plays a major role that affects our original baptism of water verses the continual baptism of fire.

Of course in the old testament, elements of earth were more manifestations of the physical, whereas in the New Testament the elements of earth are symbolic of what is within our internal spirit.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[razeontherock]

Very interesting this application of the ancient's "4 elements!"

The earth is us. Adam was made from dirt.

 

[awitch]

The earth is us. Adam was made from dirt.

Too bad it wasn't the high quality dirt they use to rub on baseballs...that kind of mud is only found in New Jersey.

 

[Catherineanne]

There are three types of baptism: water, Holy Spirit, and fire. Water baptism is obvious where one makes full surrender and acknowledgement of God's grace and so is purified of past sins. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an acquired process where Christians come under the anointing in the form of possessing both the gifts and fruits dispensed accordingly by God. The most important baptism is fire or in other words the understanding of true repentance. We all sin but wholeheartedly to be redeemed of sins Christians need to apply true repentance similar to gold being refined of its impurities in the burning process.

Come think of it, these particular baptisms represent the elements of the earth: water, fire, air, and earth. Although have not really thought out the earth element, in regards to air Christians understand Satan is the prince of the air whereas the Holy Spirit is symbolikc of wind. Anytime wind is formed the air is affected in some way or the other. In the same way, the baptism of the Holy Spirit plays a major role that affects our original baptism of water verses the continual baptism of fire.

Of course in the old testament, elements of earth were more manifestations of the physical, whereas in the New Testament the elements of earth are symbolic of what is within our internal spirit.

I hope that makes sense.

It does make sense, but I think your distinction between the air and the wind is one the ancients would not have made. They are both air.

Leaving the evil one out of this, all four elements belong to the creation, were created by God, and can lead us back to God, one way or another, as can any part of his creation.

The fourth element, earth, is contained in the baptism service as well, when it states that we are buried with Christ, and rise with him.

 

[Catherineanne]

Too bad it wasn't the high quality dirt they use to rub on baseballs...that kind of mud is only found in New Jersey.

It was indeed high quality dirt. Genesis says that the creation was 'good'.

 

[razeontherock]

that kind of mud is only found in New Jersey.

Joisey tomatoes is da best!

 

[yamin]

It does make sense, but I think your distinction between the air and the wind is one the ancients would not have made. They are both air.

Well lets just say there is a battle being waged in the air between Satan and Holy Spirit.

Leaving the evil one out of this, all four elements belong to the creation, were created by God, and can lead us back to God, one way or another, as can any part of his creation.

True in a holistic sense.

The fourth element, earth, is contained in the baptism service as well, when it states that we are buried with Christ, and rise with him.

Well then I was wrong, there are four types of baptism: water, fire, Holy Spirit, and earth. Interesting how religious dialogue renews our knowledge. Thanks.

 

[yamin]

Very interesting this application of the ancient's "4 elements!"

The earth is us. Adam was made from dirt.

And the dirt we go back to right? Please give me hope there is another baptism after this. Do advise.

 

[dlamberth]

The earth is us. Adam was made from dirt.

And our soul is an activity of God as well. Adam was given life by the breath of God.

.

 

[dlamberth]

It does make sense, but I think your distinction between the air and the wind is one the ancients would not have made. They are both air.

I'm not so sure that’s true. The ancients were very spiritually aware...much more than we are in this material world we live in today. So for example, for many in today’s spiritually aware world, wind gives air life very much in the same way as the breath of God gave a glob of dust life in Genesis.

.

 

[awitch]

Sorry but I'm not, but of course there is no way I can convince you of that is there? and if it makes you feel better to think that I am then I am, however it would seem that it's you people who need all the help you can get what with all the clutching at straws with the hoping there's a god nonsense.

Well that sounds rather antagonistic.
If religious people aren't bothering you, then what's your issue?

(Actually, perhaps you should start a new thread)

 

[awitch]

Yes but is it true? (I don't expect you to answer that)

Is what true?

You're no bother, and I have no issues, when I'm finished here it's all finished until the next time, then I start in again.

You don't think it's odd that you spend the time to find this forum and make the posts you do and still say you don't have issues?

I drop religion every time I log off, you on the other hand are stuck with it.

Happily, thank you.

 

[yamin]

So for example, for many in today’s spiritually aware world, wind gives air life very much in the same way as the breath of God gave a glob of dust life in Genesis.

.

That was the figurative point I was trying to hit. Wind does play an important role in the material manifestation, whereas still air is simply still. It all comes down to a semantic argument.