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Catherineanne

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Stepping away from specifics, I think it is worth giving a Christian perspective on fire, and what it does. Perhaps even more importantly, what it does not do.

Fire does not desecrate.

In the Old Testament, fire is associated with God himself. God speaks to Moses through the miraculous burning bush, which flames but does not burn. God leads his Chosen People through the desert in a cloud by day, a pillar of fire by night. When sacrifices are made to the Lord, they are made through fire. Abraham is told to kill his only son, Isaac, and then burn his body, as a sacrifice to God. That which we burn, ascends to heaven as an offering.

Therefore, we can see that for the ancients, fire does not desecrate; it sanctifies. The same principle holds true today.

The heretics, from both sides of the Christian divide, were not burned in order to send them to hell. They were burned in order to purify their souls from their heresy. The fire was regarded as purgative, in other words; it purifies. The sin of heresy was regarded as being so evil, that only fire would suffice to eradicate it from the soul.

And then we come on to holy or sanctified objects in our faith. Examples are holy water, religious texts, spoiled consecrated wafers etc. There are distinct conventions about how these items may be disposed of, and how they may not be disposed of. For example, holy water may be poured into the ground, but may not be poured into a drain or sewer.

Many Christians may not even realise this, but after a baptism, when the water from the font is disposed of, it does not go into a drain; it goes from the font into a soakaway; ie into the earth. Similarly, the ashes used for Ash Wednesday may not be put into a bin, but they may be placed into the ground; buried.

And then we come to an old, battered, no longer useful Bible. Again, the appropriate way to dispose of such an old Bible is not to put it into a bin, or into a landfill with other rubbish. The appropriate, respectful way to dispose of such a book would be either to bury it directly in the ground, or if that feels wrong, to burn it, and then to bury the ashes in the ground.

And one final point. The ancient Israelites thought that the sacred could be contaminated by the impure, and so sought to retain ritual purity for their lives. Christianity teaches the exact opposite; when the sacred comes into contact with the profane, the profane is sanctified. In our faith, Christ clearly demonstrates that anything which is truly sacred cannot be defiled. If it could, that would make sin more powerful than God, which is nonsense.

Islam appears to return to the Israelite attitude to holiness; it is a retrograde step from what Christ himself teaches us, in other words. In Islam, as in Judaism, sin has the power to undo what God himself does. In our faith, nothing has this much power. You can take a Holy Bible, and do what you like with it; it remains Holy. That which God has done, man cannot undo.

In neither Judaism nor Christianity can fire desecrate. Fire purifies, and constitutes an offering to God. This may not be what is intended, but nonetheless, theologically speaking, this is what is achieved.
 
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Robban

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Stepping away from specifics, I think it is worth giving a Christian perspective on fire, and what it does. Perhaps even more importantly, what it does not do.

Fire does not desecrate.

In the Old Testament, fire is associated with God himself. God speaks to Moses through the miraculous burning bush, which flames but does not burn. God leads his Chosen People through the desert in a cloud by day, a pillar of fire by night. When sacrifices are made to the Lord, they are made through fire. Abraham is told to kill his only son, Isaac, and then burn his body, as a sacrifice to God. That which we burn, ascends to heaven as an offering.

Therefore, we can see that for the ancients, fire does not desecrate; it sanctifies. The same principle holds true today.

The heretics, from both sides of the Christian divide, were not burned in order to send them to hell. They were burned in order to purify their souls from their heresy. The fire was regarded as purgative, in other words; it purifies. The sin of heresy was regarded as being so evil, that only fire would suffice to eradicate it from the soul.

And then we come on to holy or sanctified objects in our faith. Examples are holy water, religious texts, spoiled consecrated wafers etc. There are distinct conventions about how these items may be disposed of, and how they may not be disposed of. For example, holy water may be poured into the ground, but may not be poured into a drain or sewer.

Many Christians may not even realise this, but after a baptism, when the water from the font is disposed of, it does not go into a drain; it goes from the font into a soakaway; ie into the earth. Similarly, the ashes used for Ash Wednesday may not be put into a bin, but they may be placed into the ground; buried.

And then we come to an old, battered, no longer useful Bible. Again, the appropriate way to dispose of such an old Bible is not to put it into a bin, or into a landfill with other rubbish. The appropriate, respectful way to dispose of such a book would be either to bury it directly in the ground, or if that feels wrong, to burn it, and then to bury the ashes in the ground.

And one final point. The ancient Israelites thought that the sacred could be contaminated by the impure, and so sought to retain ritual purity for their lives. Christianity teaches the exact opposite; when the sacred comes into contact with the profane, the profane is sanctified. In our faith, Christ clearly demonstrates that anything which is truly sacred cannot be defiled. If it could, that would make sin more powerful than God, which is nonsense.

Islam appears to return to the Israelite attitude to holiness; it is a retrograde step from what Christ himself teaches us, in other words. In Islam, as in Judaism, sin has the power to undo what God himself does. In our faith, nothing has this much power. You can take a Holy Bible, and do what you like with it; it remains Holy. That which God has done, man cannot undo.

In neither Judaism nor Christianity can fire desecrate. Fire purifies, and constitutes an offering to God. This may not be what is intended, but nonetheless, theologically speaking, this is what is achieved.
Fire also strives upwards, I beleive it is the only element to do so. Which is why we must not be unsensitive to the Divine calling, which can be seen as a Divine spark, just waiting to be ignited. And become a flame, many flames united could be called a fire. Rising up to the Heavens.
 
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Vex

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Interesting post, thanks for that.

It was always something I was curious about because my dad's church often mentions fire/flames, I never understood it. Also, I once saw the business card of a pastor that my dad knows, it had a picture of him on it and behind him were flames, which I always thought to be really strange!
 
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Catherineanne

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Interesting post, thanks for that.

It was always something I was curious about because my dad's church often mentions fire/flames, I never understood it. Also, I once saw the business card of a pastor that my dad knows, it had a picture of him on it and behind him were flames, which I always thought to be really strange!

In that context, I think the flames are intended to represent the Holy Spirit. Icons of Pentecost often depict flames coming out of the heads of the Apostles.

The Holy Spirit can be represented as either a dove or a flame. God, where he is shown at all, is most often a hand coming from heaven, and Christ is, well, we all know that one. :)
 
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Catherineanne

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Fire also strives upwards, I beleive it is the only element to do so. Which is why we must not be unsensitive to the Divine calling, which can be seen as a Divine spark, just waiting to be ignited. And become a flame, many flames united could be called a fire. Rising up to the Heavens.

The mention of elements is very appropriate. Many faiths regard it appropriate to offer that which is holy to the earth, the air, fire or water.

Buddhist prayer flags, for example, are flown in the air, and Buddhism teaches that the air carries those prayers around the world. When the flags have become too fragile, and need to be replaced, they can be placed into a river, buried or burned. They can't be put into a bin.

Same thing. :)
 
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ProScribe

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  1. Amos 7:4
    This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: The Sovereign LORD was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land.
    Amos 7:3-5 (in Context) Amos 7 (Whole Chapter)

Hebrews 12:29 (New International Version)

29for our "God is a consuming fire."[a]
Footnotes:
  1. Hebrews 12:29 Deut. 4:24
 
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razeontherock

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To this I think I'll beat our Buddhist friend to the puch with a "namaste, and thank you for the post."

And then we come to an old, battered, no longer useful Bible.

Hey, don't talk about my KJV like that ^_^ I'm keeping it, thx.

In Islam, as in Judaism, sin has the power to undo what God himself does. In our faith, nothing has this much power. That which God has done, man cannot undo.

It's good to see you have this understanding! (Faith) Few have this w/o resorting to using Grace as a cloak for unrighteousness, which is obviously not your intent.
 
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Catherineanne

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  1. Amos 7:4
    This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: The Sovereign LORD was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land.
    Amos 7:3-5 (in Context) Amos 7 (Whole Chapter)
Hebrews 12:29 (New International Version)

29for our "God is a consuming fire."[a]

Footnotes:
  1. Hebrews 12:29 Deut. 4:24

Quite right. Both acts of purification.

QED :)
 
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Catherineanne

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To this I think I'll beat our Buddhist friend to the puch with a "namaste, and thank you for the post."

Thanks. :wave:

Hey, don't talk about my KJV like that ^_^ I'm keeping it, thx.

^_^ I have a very old one as well, and it is not going to be buried any time soon. It belonged to my great uncle. I think I was talking more theoretically than actually.

It's good to see you have this understanding! (Faith) Few have this w/o resorting to using Grace as a cloak for unrighteousness, which is obviously not your intent.

No. Unrighteousness is always just that. But I think it is still worth saying that what a person intends by a particular action is not always what they end up achieving.

As well as pointing out that the sacred cannot be desecrated. I honestly think that we can all learn from considering this point, and perhaps become a little less fearful.
 
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Catherineanne

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awitch - where's the popcorn emoticon when you need one? Many sub-forums here, that would've been enough to unleash the fires of hell (LOL) I know (some of) C's beliefs on hell, but I'm curious how the details you raise will flesh out ...

Fair enough.

First of all, I do not subscribe to Psychopath God or Sadist God. I subscribe to the God revealed most perfectly in Christ himself, and prophecied in Isaiah.

The fire and brimstone hell goes along with Psychopath God.

With God in Christ we have eternal love, mercy and compassion, but we also have the refiner's fire, which tests us in this world, and I have no doubt whatever continues to test some people in the next. I know that is not exactly mainstream, but if we look at the vast difference between people, and how far they have walked in their life of faith, there is no doubt that some still have much to learn when they enter eternity. How that learning is effected, I have absolutely no idea. In relation to this world, I do. It is effected by our picking up our own particular cross, denying ourselves and following the Lord.

In relation to a fire, if we put in pure gold, the gold is not changed. It may melt, and then be worked into another shape, but it remains gold. This is Christ, who came to earth as the moral equivalent of pure gold, lived 30 odd years, died and rose again, and was as pure at the end as he was at the start.

The rest of us are more like gold ore. Mostly slag, but with a vein of pure gold - the image of God - waiting to be found, or purified, from that slag. Those of us who have been Christians for some years will be able to do as I can, and look back on that process of refining, which is very painful, very difficult and very challenging. And that process of refining involves God's refining fire in our lives, burning out the dross, and leaving only what he wants to find; the image of his Son.
 
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Catherineanne

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It must be nice to be able to dream and believe the dreams are real, I really wish I could to do it sometimes, ah well.

What are the dreamy sides of water and air?

The dreamy side of water and air combine to make cloud.

And if you look, those clouds are visible to believer and non believer alike. :wave:

As for whether my 'dreams' are real or not, that really doesn't bother me. If I am wrong, I get eternal oblivion, the same as everyone else, and have lost nothing. Meanwhile, I have found a way to live, which requires that I do not hurt anyone else, and that I treat them as I would want to be treated, however badly they may treat me.

In other words, we have a win:win situation.
 
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Catherineanne

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dreamy or symbolic purpose they were created for?

Believers and non believers have to find a way to make sense of what is otherwise meaningless. Humans seek patterns.

There is no difference. What matters is to be honest, and to have integrity. After that, whatever conclusions we reach are very much secondary.
 
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Catherineanne

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In other words for you your religion is more like an insurance policy, nice, and you feel that you need a religion so that you don't hurt anyone else and to make sure that you treat them as you would want to be treated however badly they may treat you, that is funny because I don't need a religion to do that I just do it as a matter of course, but if that's what you need to be a good person then I'm all for it.

Those are your words, not mine. :)

If you look, I said I am not bothered about this particular policy paying out. What I am bothered about is living a life which does not harm anyone else, and which gives me a way to find meaning. We all seek patterns; believers and non believers.

I could, no doubt, do this without a religion, and in that sense I do not need it. As it happens, I choose to do it with, for reasons far too numerous to list here.

However, we digress. The subject at hand is the theological meaning of fire, and in particular whether fire has the capacity to desecrate.

:wave:
 
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Robban

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It must be nice to be able to dream and believe the dreams are real, I really wish I could to do it sometimes, ah well.

What are the dreamy sides of water and air?
For us "dreamers", Fire gives us something to relate to, Who has not seen a fire? The same in the "non-dreamers" world.One example would be, "The car was running badly,but I got it fixed. Now it goes like a bullet". No one can see a bullet traveling through the air, not with the naked eye.
One category of "dreamer" relates to the Torah as water, water runs downwards, from high to low, filling every nook and cranny on it,s way,
When it has reached the lowest parts it is still the same water.
Air,don,t know off hand,try holding your breath for 20 minutes.
You say you live a "correct"(lack of word) way of life, well done. The Creator is not like a greedy shipowner, who tries to load a vessel that was designed to carry 1000 ton,with say 1500 ton. He knows exactly how much each and every one of that which is His can carry.
 
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