Father Nathan Monk stepping down from priesthood in support of LGBTQ?

[katherine2001]

I know Orthodox clergy and laity who support civil unions or marriage for gays and do not consider homosexual acts to necessarily be sinful in general - I would describe them as quietly pro-gay. They do not necessarily consider their gay rights stances the most important issue in their spiritual lives, so it doesn't necessarily cause them to leave Orthodoxy, and I suppose they regard anti-gay opinions in the Orthodox Church as due to ignorance rather than some kind of dogmatic statement about the Orthodox faith- they don't view being pro-gay as un-Orthodox.

So I'm wondering, why did Nathan Monk leave?

Then with all due respect, those who don't agree with the church's teachings should leave. I am not anti-gay--I have great sympathy for them I have friends who are gay. However, I cannot support same-sex marriage. It goes against the Church's and the Scriptures (the NT is a product of the Church. I would say that the teachings about homosexuality and marriage being a union between a male and a female are dogma. Whether they are dogma or not, we don't get to pick and choose which doctrine we are going to accept. Believing in same-sex marriage is un-Orthodox. And a priest should leave the priesthood if they don't believe all the teachings of the Church. Lay people are not allowed to pick and choose among Orthodox doctrine and priests are even more accountable. God holds priests very accountable since they can lead many people astray. Perhaps he left for his own salvation.

 

[katherine2001]

No, most of them are devout Orthodox Christians... some have been Orthodox Christians for decades.

How can you be devoutly Orthodox while picking and choosing among Orthodox doctrines? This comment reminds me of reading how a person was a devout Catholic while they were having adulterous affairs. How can they be devout while flouting the clear teachings of their faith?

I have all the compassion in the world for homosexuals. That would be a very difficult cross to bear. However, I cannot support same-sex marriage or heterosexuals having sexual relations outside of marriage. It is awfully hard for heterosexuals to remain celibate if they are not married as well. However, both homosexual relations and heterosexual relations outside of marriage are condemned by both the Church and the Scriptures. How can a person be devout and believe the opposite of what their faith teaches, especially when the Church made doctrine (and I would argue dogma) that both of these things are sinful.

 

[GregConstantine]

"No, most of them are devout Orthodox Christians... some have been Orthodox Christians for decades."

That does not matter, whether there's one or millions who believe this. What matters is what is the Truth and are you aligned with the Truth? What we believe or think about any thing does not affect reality.

Its your salvation, not theirs, that you need to worry about.

Many of us are upset at Nathan, not so much because of the status of his personal salvation, but because of his behavior on FB.

It amazes me, those who are ardent supportors of gay marriage wax elequence all the do long day about tolerance and acceptance, but act as if they are allowed to engage in boorish, immature, and quite frankly, intolerent behaviors towards those who disagree with them, all the while shaking judgmental fingers at them, claiming how un-judgmental they are.

 

[Damaris]

No, most of them are devout Orthodox Christians... some have been Orthodox Christians for decades.

Any number of heretics throughout Church history would have been considered quite devout in their faith. They were still wrong, and their heresy led many souls astray from Christ.

I've heard the same justifications for homosexual behavior from people who have been Orthodox for decades, who slander people who are against it as "converts bringing baggage into the Church". Yet they cannot change the fact that the consistent witness of Church teaching is that sodomy is wrong, and marriage is between a man and a woman.

You can believe the Orthodox faith or not, but the Church's teaching is what it has always been. Trying to tease another meaning out of it is historically, intellectually, and morally dishonest.

Whatever else Nathan Monk may be, I'm glad he had the fortitude to depart from the ranks of clergy of a Church whose teachings he could not support. That is why he had to leave. In the long run, I hope that he can find it in his heart to repent of his false teaching and seek forgiveness. He will have less to repent of in that event, than he would have had he remained in the Orthodox Church as a wolf in shepherd's clothing.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think there are problems with replying to every controversial issue with "the Church teaches" - who speaks for the Church in this case? Orthodoxy is not like Roman Catholicism that has a single infallible authority.

The Church has changed how it handles social issues before, such as teachings about usury, eunuchs, slavery and serfdom, and so on.

 

[GregConstantine]

@firedragon,

did you even read anything I wrote? Are you going to even try to understand what we believe and teach?

How to handle a social issue is a drastically different thing from changing the teachings of the Church.

The Church has had a steadfast witness to the same faith and teachings for 2,000 years, it is that witness we go to to know what we believe and teach. It is very easy and simple to say "The Church teaches".

Only those who wish to muddle or change the teachings of the Church would make such statements that implies that its difficult to know or to articulate what the Church teaches.

Also, there are many, many, many "cradle" Orthodox who uphold and teach the Church's teachings on marriage, not just converts with "bagagge"

A couple of examples:
Russia, an Orthodox country, just passed a law prohibiting gay marriage

Metropolitan Phillip of the Antiochians, not a "convert", has made it clear what the Church's teachings on this issue, and has stated the Antichians will not tolerate such abominations.

Don't want to be Orthodox fine, don't come here and tell us what the Orthodox faith is and or should be, thank you.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

It amazes me, those who are ardent supportors of gay marriage wax elequence all the do long day about tolerance and acceptance, but act as if they are allowed to engage in boorish, immature, and quite frankly, intolerent behaviors towards those who disagree with them, all the while shaking judgmental fingers at them, claiming how un-judgmental they are.

Bingo.

 

[FireDragon76]

@firedragon,

did you even read anything I wrote? Are you going to even try to understand what we believe and teach?

An appeal to tradition is a logical fallacy rejected by philosophers. Just saying "the Church teaches" doesn't solve the issue for me, sorry. Unless you are saying that your religious beliefs are fundamentally opossed to reason.

Good theology should appeal to peoples reason and experiences. Your authoritarian claims do not.

A couple of examples:
Russia, an Orthodox country, just passed a law prohibiting gay marriage

This is not a rousing endorsement. Vladimir Putin is a totalitarian ruler and Russia is not known for its human rights record, and that's saying it nicely.

Putin didn't just outlaw gay marriage, he also demonized homosexuals and made it more difficult for young people to get objective, scientifically based information about human sexuality. This sort of thing will harm countless gay and lesbian youth in Russia.

 

[GregConstantine]

Yes, we will appeal to Tradition, for Holy Tradition is itself the very relvelation of God Himself to the Church and to humanity.

I explained to you the basic Orthodox understanding of what is salvation and that everything the Church does and teaches is based on that understanding of salvation.

You have no desire to understand us and what we teach.

Why are you on this forum?

 

[Nephi]

An appeal to tradition is a logical fallacy rejected by philosophers. Just saying "the Church teaches" doesn't solve the issue for me, sorry. Unless you are saying that your religious beliefs are fundamentally opossed to reason.

An appeal to tradition is a fallacy if it amounts to "this is what's always been done, it must be right" or something like that. It's only fallacious insofar as the assumed premise of "this is how it's been, or used to be" is not necessarily true.

OTOH, appealing to the Church or Church Tradition in this case is actually an inductive "appeal to authority." You could view the argument as weak, or I suppose you could say it is begging the question (which doesn't necessarily mean his premises and/or the conclusion are false, and that the argument could simply be restructured), but it is not an "appeal to tradition."

 

[Lukaris]

An appeal to tradition is a logical fallacy rejected by philosophers. Just saying "the Church teaches" doesn't solve the issue for me, sorry. Unless you are saying that your religious beliefs are fundamentally opossed to reason.

Good theology should appeal to peoples reason and experiences. Your authoritarian claims do not.



This is not a rousing endorsement. Vladimir Putin is a totalitarian ruler and Russia is not known for its human rights record, and that's saying it nicely.

Putin didn't just outlaw gay marriage, he also demonized homosexuals and made it more difficult for young people to get objective, scientifically based information about human sexuality. This sort of thing will harm countless gay and lesbian youth in Russia.

The anti gay laws of Russia are counter to the Gospel.

 

[GregConstantine]

"The anti gay laws of Russia are counter to the Gospel."

Missing my point

 

[Lukaris]

"The anti gay laws of Russia are counter to the Gospel."

Missing my point

I do not know to what you are referring. He made a valid observation of secular authority abusing civil rights, while Americans had better not interefere in Russian internal affairs (cause all we do is cause more people to die in the long run & be oppressed further).

 

[rusmeister]

The anti gay laws of Russia are counter to the Gospel.

????

What on earth do you mean?

I could guess, but would rather hear the explanation.

 

[FireDragon76]

I do not know to what you are referring. He made a valid observation of secular authority abusing civil rights, while Americans had better not interefere in Russian internal affairs (cause all we do is cause more people to die in the long run & be oppressed further).

Right... I don't want to live in Russia... I hope that is not the Orthodox Utopia some want, because I wouldn't want to live there. I believe in democracy, freedom, all that stuff. I dont want to force my particular Christian values on anyone.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Right... I don't want to live in Russia... I hope that is not the Orthodox Utopia some want, because I wouldn't want to live there. I believe in democracy, freedom, all that stuff. I dont want to force my particular Christian values on anyone.

this is in some way my view, while I will speak against things like gay marriage from the pulpit and street corner, this something I don't want the government to get their hands on.

 

[HalupkiMonster]

I've already read the entire OC.net thread.

Why must I read this one, too?

I admit, my enthusiasm about Fr. Nathan (or, rather, Nathan,) was on the floor from the beginning. I think that he's too young, zealous, and eccentric to be a priest. At the very least, he's immature.

This is a good testament to why any vocation, priestly or otherwise, is not something to be take lightly and without years of discernment.

Besides, hadn't he only been Orthodox for like two years?

Oy!

 

[HalupkiMonster]

Does it really? Why is the t in there? Aren't transgendered the ones that actually think there trapped in the wrong body? Don't see what they have in common with gays, aren't they looking for surgery?

Just want to say that this is a good point. As a homosexual (celibate) person, this always upset me. Being "transgender" is totally not the same thing as being gay, lesbian or bisexual. I actually have a problem taking transgender people seriously. I have a cousin who is a professional drag queen, and we have never taken gender stereotypes very seriously, so people who want to adopt the stereotypes of the opposite gender just confuse me.

It's good that I'm celibate. Were I "active," I'd make a terrible gay person.

 

[GregConstantine]

"I do not know to what you are referring. He made a valid observation of secular authority abusing civil rights, while Americans had better not interefere in Russian internal affairs (cause all we do is cause more people to die in the long run & be oppressed further)."

Read my comment again, it had nothing to do with the internal politics of Russia.

 

[HalupkiMonster]

But I see red flags just the fact that his wife enchanted all the men in OC.net because she is 'cute' and 'hot' is enough to wonder if these people are charismatic cultists.

Maybe not all of us.