Ezekiel's Temple

[ebedmelech]

If you pick and choose what you want from Romans, you pick and choose.

You don't choose to say,'' I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? CERTAINLY NOT!..........Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the gentiles, HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULNESS.

If they were broken off, and you stand by FAITH, Do not be haughty.

.........How much more will these, who are the natural branches, be grafted into their OWN OLIVE TREE.

God comes to the Jews of Judah first so that nobody can boast against them.

That's only if one ignores that the Jews broke the covenant God made with them at Mount Sinai. So there's no "picking and choosing". All you need do is read Romans allowing it to tell you what's happening instead of pushing your thoughts onto it.

As you read the beginning of Romans 11:1-10... it tells you Israels failures...so who's picking and choosing?

FOR DO NOT BE IGNORANT of this mystery, LEST YOU SHOULD BE WISE IN YOUR OWN OPINION, THAT HARDENING IN PART HAS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES HAS COME IN.

And then what happens Ebed?

Well first let's understand this...God is saving Jews out of his gracious choice...let that be clear from Romans 11:5:
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn ungodliness from Jacob; for MY COVENANT IS WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKE, but concerning the election they are BELOVED FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHERS....

I'm not in disagreement with any of this. The point I'm making is that the only "Israel" God is concerned with is all who believe on Him. Paul is very consistent throughout Romans that God is not a respecter of persons and we are ALL one in Christ.

Ebed, I really don't have any idea why you cant read what is written and not understand.

You will still sit there and say the law is over and the covenant is over when Paul clearly tells us different...

Indeed...Listen to the apostle Paul refute your premise:
Galatians 2:21:
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

You cannot keep the Law...that's why Christ came. and yes the Law is abolished...have you not read in Ephesians 2:14-16:?
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

Seems you're the one not understanding...Jew and Gentiles are the SAME at the cross!!!

If nobody benefits from the law, then why did Paul keep the law the rest of his life?

Why did Paul go out of his way to prove he was keeping the law and he never taught against the law as liars had said of him.

Why did the Jews become even more zealous in keeping the law Ebed?

Do you not understand only unbelievers will be judged by the Law?

It is Paul arguing that you CANNOT keep the Law in Romans and Galatians.

If you don't understand that you've got a long way to go to understanding why Christ came in the first place.

Read these passages:

Romans 3:21-25
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Galatians 3:10-14:
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This would be the point...salvation is a free gift given through Christ who kept the Law perfectly for us!!!

Now what?

 

[Keachian]

Ezekiel shows all the sacrifices happening on a single day.

Ezekiel reference? I agree with you on the significance of Christ as the princely figure in the Eschaton, mainly from my reading of Hebrews, I would like to have firmer links between the imo nebulous concept of the prince providing the sacrifices and Christs once-for-all sacrifice.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

That's only if one ignores that the Jews broke the covenant God made with them at Mount Sinai. So there's no "picking and choosing". All you need do is read Romans allowing it to tell you what's happening instead of pushing your thoughts onto it.

As you read the beginning of Romans 11:1-10... it tells you Israels failures...so who's picking and choosing?

Well first let's understand this...God is saving Jews out of his gracious choice...let that be clear from Romans 11:5:
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.


I'm not in disagreement with any of this. The point I'm making is that the only "Israel" God is concerned with is all who believe on Him. Paul is very consistent throughout Romans that God is not a respecter of persons and we are ALL one in Christ.

Indeed...Listen to the apostle Paul refute your premise:
Galatians 2:21:
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

You cannot keep the Law...that's why Christ came. and yes the Law is abolished...have you not read in Ephesians 2:14-16:?
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

Seems you're the one not understanding...Jew and Gentiles are the SAME at the cross!!!

Do you not understand only unbelievers will be judged by the Law?

It is Paul arguing that you CANNOT keep the Law in Romans and Galatians.

If you don't understand that you've got a long way to go to understanding why Christ came in the first place.

Read these passages:

Romans 3:21-25
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Galatians 3:10-14:
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This would be the point...salvation is a free gift given through Christ who kept the Law perfectly for us!!!

Now what?

Oh no Ebed.

They turn Godly Ebed, God comes and turns them.

Is there another people who God is going to do this for?

God takes away THEIR sin and turns them away from sin, MAKING them not sin.

He doesn't come to Alaskan Eskimos and he plainly says this in many places.

He comes to THEM Ebed.

Not any other people but to them FIRST.

And then you will see who God loves when the kings of all nations bring up the wealth of the nations to their feet.

We can start there.

 

[ebedmelech]

Oh no Ebed.

They turn Godly Ebed, God comes and turns them.

Is there another people who God is going to do this for?

God does it out of His mercy though...God owes Israel nothing!

God takes away THEIR sin and turns them away from sin, MAKING them not sin.

He doesn't come to Alaskan Eskimos and he plainly says this in many places.

He comes to THEM Ebed.

Not any other people but to them FIRST.

And then you will see who God loves when the kings of all nations bring up the wealth of the nations to their feet.

We can start there.

You really miss the message don't you? The Israel God is concerned with is not ethnic Israel...it is ALL who are of the faith of Abraham...read Romans 4 and 5!!!

So let me just lay this out for you;
*There will be NO temple...all believers are living stones in the temple built upon the apostles and prophets with Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.

*God will pour out His Spirit on the Jews...I don't deny that...but not because they are anything more than other believers...we are ALL ONE IN CHRIST.

If you think this is about a strip of land called "Israel"...think again...because as Paul said "the Jerusalem above is free, she is our mother."

So it's not about earthly Jerusalem...but the Jerusalem that comes down from heaven.

Be looking for it...

 

[HannibalFlavius]

God does it out of His mercy though...God owes Israel nothing!

You really miss the message don't you? The Israel God is concerned with is not ethnic Israel...it is ALL who are of the faith of Abraham...read Romans 4 and 5!!!

So let me just lay this out for you;
*There will be NO temple...all believers are living stones in the temple built upon the apostles and prophets with Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.

*God will pour out His Spirit on the Jews...I don't deny that...but not because they are anything more than other believers...we are ALL ONE IN CHRIST.

If you think this is about a strip of land called "Israel"...think again...because as Paul said "the Jerusalem above is free, she is our mother."

So it's not about earthly Jerusalem...but the Jerusalem that comes down from heaven.

Be looking for it...

No Ebed, He comes to Judah, the unbelieving Judah and all of them turn to God because they are Jews, not other believers.

To them first Ebed, Paul says it because he is referring to the prophets saying it.

 

[ebedmelech]

No Ebed, He comes to Judah, the unbelieving Judah and all of them turn to God because they are Jews, not other believers.

To them first Ebed, Paul says it because he is referring to the prophets saying it.

Not at all...Israel ceased to be a divided kingdom when they returned to the land from the exile. The focus is on the church "All Israel" is the church...made up of Jews and Gentiles.

 

[ebedmelech]

duplicate

 

[Bible2]

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post 26:

The 1000 years is not true, it is an invention/hope, of some, for a King David-type Israel on the earth, which arose some time before and during the time of Jesus.

Actually, the 1,000 years (the millennium) is true, for it's scriptural (Revelation 20:2-7).

The millennium will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4). During the millennium, Jesus will place obedient Christians over cities (Luke 19:17-19) and nations (Revelation 2:26-29) and political divisions within nations (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30), while Jesus will be King of Kings (Revelation 19:16) over the entire earth (Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11), reigning in the earthly Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-21).

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post 26:

The 1000 years is not true, it is an invention/hope, of some, for a King David-type Israel on the earth, which arose some time before and during the time of Jesus.

Regarding "on the earth", Jesus will physically reign on the earth during the thousand years, for, again, the thousand years will begin after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the thousand years, so will the physically resurrected church, for the physically resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the thousand years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church physically over the nations can refer to the thousand years. There's no reason to exclude the thousand years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there's no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post 26:

The 1000 years is not true, it is an invention/hope, of some, for a King David-type Israel on the earth, which arose some time before and during the time of Jesus.

Regarding "a King David-type Israel", Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). And Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Bible2]

coraline said in post 27:

We are that temple.

Note that nothing requires that the church is Ezekiel's temple (possibly a future, 4th temple), just as nothing requires that the church is the (also future) 3rd temple. For while the church as a whole is a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it isn't the only temple of God. For it coexists with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That's why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 38:

Whether you know it or not Christ made a New Covenant upon his death.

That's right (Matthew 26:28).

ebedmelech said in post 38:

He fulfilled every bit of the Old Covenant.

Are you thinking of Matthew 5:17-18? If so, it means that Jesus came the first time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Christ's first coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Luke 24:44-48; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53). Matthew 5:17-18 can't mean that Jesus came not to abolish the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for he did come to do that, on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19). Also, Matthew 5:17-18 can't mean that Jesus came to fulfill the letter of all the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments, for he couldn't possibly have done that. For example, some of those commandments applied only to women after childbirth (Leviticus 12:4-8), or to wives suspected of adultery by their husbands (Numbers 5:19-31).

As the Christ (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-8), Jesus had the divine authority to contradict the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments and replace them with his own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:38-44, Matthew 19:7-9, John 8:5-7), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow his disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Matthew 12:1-8).

ebedmelech said in post 38:

Therefore Jews keeping the Old Covenant benefits them NOTHING.

That's right.

On Jesus' cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18,19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there's no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he'd set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), whereas the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices (e.g. Leviticus 23:19), whereas the New Covenant replaced those with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:22-25), so that those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:22-31).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (including the letter of the 10 commandments), written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8. The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it's still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), whereas the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8,9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any believers are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus will profit them nothing; they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

 

[coraline]

Salvation was of the Jews (Christ) but is no longer about any ethnic group.

The Church is neither Jew nor Gentile.

God never loses anything.
He never "lost" the 10 tribes of Israel (the 10 northern tribes, ie:Ephraim) even though they were exiled among the nations .

If we read the prophecies of Hosea & Amos, we find that God was divorcing Israel but after that judgment, promised to remarry & restore Israel (Hosea 2:19; 3:1-5)
In Hosea 1:4, Jehovah said he was about to destroy the 10 northern tribes as a nationalistic entity.
In Amos 5:1-3, the Lord was going to destroy Israel & she would never rise again.
It should be noted though that in Amos 9:11, God promised to restore the tent of David.

And in Gen.49:10, God says the "septer would not depart from Judah until Shiloh came. (the Messiah)

So do we have a contradiction here? No. Only if the "restoration" was in the same old form. However, the O.T. "restoration" in view here was going to be a change in covenant, a difference, under a restored nation (Jer.31:31)
A difference in worship (Jer.3:14) A difference in the scope of the kingdom (Isa.2:2) A difference in the identity of the people of the kingdom (Isa.65:13)
A difference in the locale of the kingdom (Jer.3:16, Malachi 1:12) & other fundamental changes in the nature of the kingdom.

God brought Ephraim & Judah back into one kingdom & the covenant change. (Isa.62:4)

So God never lost any of Israel. He established a New Covenant for them, to the ultimate time of when Messiah came to visit them.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

. However, the O.T. "restoration" in view here was going to be a change in covenant, a difference, under a restored nation (Jer.31:31)

Many people claim to be Jews and are not but they are a synagogue of Satan----Who are the true Jews?

I'm gonna take these a little at a time.


Where are you in this scripture?

Where is your covenant?

Who is the new covenant made for?

Jeremiah 31 says that the Sun and Moon will stop it's cycles before he gives up on his people. But you think its over?

What you want to show from the New Testament is your covenant in Israel but this is not just to mean that just because you know that you are Israel in some way, that you shouldn't try and figure out EXACTLY why.

If you show any covenant, the covenant is with Judah and Ephraim, but God calls Ephraim,'' Not his people'' and this means exactly,'' Gentiles''

The promise given to Ephraim and their re-gathering is quoted by Paul in connection with gentiles.

But if you don't believe that Ephraim would become a company of nations, and you don't believe that gentiles come under the promise spoken to Ephraim, then when Paul says,'' I will call them my people who were not my people, and her beloved, who was not beloved,'' And it shall come to pass IN THE PLACE{JEZREEL} where it was said to the{Ephraim}, ''You are not my people{Gentiles}'' There they shall be called the sons of the living God, THE YOU CANNOT SAY THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH GENTILES''

Then when Paul says, '' They shall be called the sons of the living God.'' It means that you believe this scripture to have nothing to do with Gentiles.

Paul of course teaches gentiles that they are the ones who were not beloved and have become the sons of the living God.

But if you will not believe that gentiles have been grafted into this promise spoke to Ephraim, then the promise has nothing to do with gentiles.

And if you believe that the New covenant is for gentiles, There is no way for you to make that claim.

The promise of the covenant was made to Ephraim and Judah, and so you have no covenant if you have not been grafted into one of these houses.

Has the ordinances of the sun and Moon ended?

God doesn't say he makes a new covenant for gentiles but he does say he will sow men INTO Israel and Judah.

But you would say that they are no longer the chosen people?


Jeremiah 31

King James Version (KJV)

31 At the same time, saith the Lord, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.
2 Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.
3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.
6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the Lord our God.
7 For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
11 For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the Lord, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the Lord.
15 Thus saith the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
16 Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.
19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.
21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.
22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The Lord bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.
24 And there shall dwell in Judah itself, and in all the cities thereof together, husbandmen, and they that go forth with flocks.
25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

 

[coraline]

by HannibelF from Jer.31,

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is about Israel of the flesh only. Would you not agree?

Jeremiah is not prophesying about the Gentiles in the N.T. that would be grafted in after God showed Peter in Acts 8.

Jeremiah was a prophet to Judah, not "Ephraim"

The 10 Northern tribes had already been exiled to Assyria. Judah was about to be exiled to Babylon for the same reasons of disobedience, In fact, Judah had become even more sinful than Ephraim.

You ask, "who is the new covenant made for?"

Well, initially the new covenant in Jeremiah, God says "the house of Israel"

Now that implies to me the whole "12 tribes" in that prophecy.

However, it is still to the Jews only bc the Gentiles never had any "old covenant" with the Lord.

But it is this "new" covenant that Gentiles would be grafted into also.

Jesus was the "mediator" of the new covenant (Hebrews)


The New Covenant was a covenant of grace in Christ Jesus. And only a remnant of Israel was to be saved by it. (Romans 11:5)

This was God's sovereign will.

If more of the circumcision wanted to be saved, they needed to seek it by faith in Jesus.

Does that answer your question?

 

[ebedmelech]

Many people claim to be Jews and are not but they are a synagogue of Satan----Who are the true Jews?

I'm gonna take these a little at a time.

I'll answer a little at a time.

Where are you in this scripture?

I gave it to you yesterday...Romans 2:28, 29:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

The true Jews are spiritual!

Where is your covenant?

Jesus gave it in Matthew 26:26-29:
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

Who is the new covenant made for?

Look at the latter...it was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins"!!!

Jeremiah 31 says that the Sun and Moon will stop it's cycles before he gives up on his people. But you think its over?

Exactly...but who are his people except those who do his will???

What you want to show from the New Testament is your covenant in Israel but this is not just to mean that just because you know that you are Israel in some way, that you shouldn't try and figure out EXACTLY why.

If you show any covenant, the covenant is with Judah and Ephraim, but God calls Ephraim,'' Not his people'' and this means exactly,'' Gentiles''

Nope. Go read Deuteronomy 31:14-18!!!

The promise given to Ephraim and their re-gathering is quoted by Paul in connection with gentiles.

Where? Let's make sure you're apply that right.

But if you don't believe that Ephraim would become a company of nations, and you don't believe that gentiles come under the promise spoken to Ephraim, then when Paul says,'' I will call them my people who were not my people, and her beloved, who was not beloved,'' And it shall come to pass IN THE PLACE{JEZREEL} where it was said to the{Ephraim}, ''You are not my people{Gentiles}'' There they shall be called the sons of the living God, THE YOU CANNOT SAY THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH GENTILES''

Well...Paul is quoting from Hosea 2:23...please show where Epharaim is mentioned...they don't even appear in the chapter.

Then when Paul says, '' They shall be called the sons of the living God.'' It means that you believe this scripture to have nothing to do with Gentiles.

You're in gross error...here's the passage...Romans 9:23-26
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
25As He says also in Hosea,“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’ And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

Explain that...because Paul say the exact opposite of what you say...

Paul of course teaches gentiles that they are the ones who were not beloved and have become the sons of the living God.

But if you will not believe that gentiles have been grafted into this promise spoke to Ephraim, then the promise has nothing to do with gentiles.

And if you believe that the New covenant is for gentiles, There is no way for you to make that claim.

The promise of the covenant was made to Ephraim and Judah, and so you have no covenant if you have not been grafted into one of these houses.

Has the ordinances of the sun and Moon ended?

God doesn't say he makes a new covenant for gentiles but he does say he will sow men INTO Israel and Judah.

But you would say that they are no longer the chosen people?

No way to address that except as GROSS ERROR!!!

You posted Jeremiah 31...yet it's pretty obvious you have NO CLUE how it applies. Jeremiah 31 mentions the NEW COVENANT!!!

The "new covenant" is addressed in only 25 places in scripture Hannibal...only 2 times in the OT, which are Jeremiah 31:27 and 31:31.

Now Jesus said "This cup is the "new covenant" in my blood"...guess what Jesus meant.

 

[coraline]

Yes, believing Gentiles are of spiritual Israel.

Romans 9:6 NASB "All are not Israel who are from the nation Israel." There is a true Israel, a believing remnant, within the nation Israel. He was telling them that physical decent didn't mean that they were the true people of God:

And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:29 NASB​

If you by faith belong to Christ, you are Abraham's seed and an heir according to the promise, it doesn't matter who's blood you have in your veins, but who's faith you have in your heart. It is covenant, not race, that makes one a Jew.

For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16 NASB​

 

[HannibalFlavius]

The New Covenant was a covenant of grace in Christ Jesus. And only a remnant of Israel was to be saved by it. (Romans 11:5)

I'll have to take a little at a time.

Romans 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul goes into the events of Elijah concerning the Northern Kingdom of Israel.

Elijah speaks concerning the kingdom of Ahab and Jezebel,'' Lord they have killed your prophets and torn down your alters, and I alone am left.''


After this, Ahab summons these very same 7000 men in the Northern kingdom which God told Ahab he reserved in Ephraim.

And Ahab said, By whom? And he said, Thus said the LORD, Even by the young men of the princes of the provinces. Then he said, Who shall order the battle? And he answered, You. 15Then he numbered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty two: and after them he numbered all the people, even all the children of Israel, being seven thousand. …

Everyone reads Romans without showing the differences between Israel and Judah.

It is often that Paul is speaking of the Kingdom of Israel known as Ephraim, but that the reader doesn't see the distinction.


It makes sense to me what is said, but the bottom line is that the 7000 are in fact the reserved of Israel, not Judah.

The new covenant is for Judah and Ephraim.

You can say that this new covenant applies to you only after you have figured out where you are in Ephraim or Judah.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

The 7000 being of the northern kingdom is something I cannot get past.


If Paul had been saying this about Judah in the least, it would be wrong.

Tens of thousands of Jews believed on Christ, much more than 7000.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

In the place{Jezreel} it was said to them,'' You are not my people'' There it was said to them,'' You are the sons of the living God.''


Lets take Gentiles right out of the picture.


Paul connects gentiles with this prophecy.

The prophecy is the promise to Ephraim.


Paul doesn't have to be right, But I believe he is.

If Paul is right then he is saying that gentiles are the ones being now called,'' The sons of the living God.''

And in that same place is where Jesus came and called Gentile when those who sat in darkness in the land of the kingdom of Ephraim saw a great light.

The bottom line is simple.

The prophecy is FOR Ephraim alone.

If one believes that Paul is saying gentiles are grafted through this promise demands the belief that Paul is saying that Gentiles are grafted in through Ephraim because the promise is only to Ephraim.

 

[ebedmelech]

In the place{Jezreel} it was said to them,'' You are not my people'' There it was said to them,'' You are the sons of the living God.''


Lets take Gentiles right out of the picture.


Paul connects gentiles with this prophecy.

The prophecy is the promise to Ephraim.


Paul doesn't have to be right, But I believe he is.

If Paul is right then he is saying that gentiles are the ones being now called,'' The sons of the living God.''

And in that same place is where Jesus came and called Gentile when those who sat in darkness in the land of the kingdom of Ephraim saw a great light.

The bottom line is simple.

The prophecy is FOR Ephraim alone.

If one believes that Paul is saying gentiles are grafted through this promise demands the belief that Paul is saying that Gentiles are grafted in through Ephraim because the promise is only to Ephraim.

Quite wrong...but it's obvious this is something you'll have to learn on your own.

You have it really backwards Hannibal. In Romans, the apostle is telling you what the prophecies mean...NOT the other way around.

You're turning what the apostle Paul is saying on it's head! Paul is a "Hebrew of the Hebrews"...believe me, if he wanted us to separate Judah and Israel, he would do it.

Also...don't you find it strange not even Jesus refers to ANY of the 12 tribes?

 

[coraline]

HannibelF said,

Everyone reads Romans without showing the differences between Israel and Judah.

It is often that Paul is speaking of the Kingdom of Israel known as Ephraim, but that the reader doesn't see the distinction.


It makes sense to me what is said, but the bottom line is that the 7000 are in fact the reserved of Israel, not Judah.

The new covenant is for Judah and Ephraim.

Israel is the 12 tribes. No distinction.
But Paul is saying that some of natural Israel were being cut off bc of unbelief.

The requirement for being saved was for them to have faith in Christ.

They didn't. Paul wishes that some would be saved bc he loves Israel bc he is a natural Jew too.
However, It is what God the Father determines that settles the matter.
Jesus came for judgment upon natural Israel

God always kept a remnant for His holy name from Israel.
However,
Jesus "came into his own & his own received him not"

Those were the Jews of the first century who did not believe on the Messiah (as the apostle Jews, etc did)

The Pharisees called themselves Jews & sons of Abraham, but Jesus told them that their father was the author of lies, the devil, not Abraham.

So those are the wicked Jews in that generation that Jesus is speaking about in His ministry.

Even Jesus lamented over Jerusalem (Luke 19)

Ask yourself why.

It's bc Jerusalem & the "holy people" were going to be shattered by the Romans in AD67. Culminating with their temple.

Judgment was predetermined in God's plan well beforehand in the OT.

He had hardened a part of Israel forever. Only a remnant would be saved,

I submit that the 144,000 are representative of the saved remnant.

The rest of the story can't be discussed here bc I am a full preterist.