Exaggerations of Jesus?

[tremble]

Does that mean I can kill somebody when they make me angry?

Good question. Perhaps a more accurate way to phrase it would be, "You can't be a Christian if you do not obey Jesus".

 

[Gibs]

Yes, I am also talking about living the life Jesus intended for us. We said the same thing in two different ways, except I used a stronger word to describe this "living the life he intends" by called it obedience to his standards.

Tremble you are positively right as the problem is claiming to have the Holy Spirit doesn't ring true if that one is not obeying the Spirit, and that is not letting the Holy Spirit be the Master in the soul temple.

Old man self keeps demanding to be resurrected and he must be kept crucified as self demands gratification and gratification of the flesh leads to sin.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Rubiks]

So tremble, when Jesus says forsake all, he means we abolish private ownership and share and care for each other's needs?

I would very likely want to get rid of a lot of stuff I don't use and well as my toys. I do believe God wants me to care for my family's needs, and I do believe he wants me to use wealth to accomplish his will.

 

[pescador]

<snip>
Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In the earliest texts "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is absent. It was added later by some scribe who wanted to augment God's word.

 

[Gibs]

So tremble, when Jesus says forsake all, he means we abolish private ownership and share and care for each other's needs?

I would very likely want to get rid of a lot of stuff I don't use and well as my toys. I do believe God wants me to care for my family's needs, and I do believe he wants me to use wealth to accomplish his will.

I believe that the word forsake is OK in that verse if it is applied to self and the text states "himself", I find deny better expresses the thought more rightly as in the KJV

Mt 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Deny from the Greek is,
533. aparneomai

aparneomai aparneomai ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee
from 575 and 720; to deny utterly, i.e. disown, abstain:--deny.

See Greek 575
See Greek 720

Self is the big problem in following Christ and must be refused or crucified and kept crucified! You could say I suppose it is self that must be forsaken or left out.

We must forsake self, and that is a biggie!

 

[Gibs]

In the earliest texts "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is absent. It was added later by some scribe who wanted to augment God's word.

I believe that you will find that Erasmus demanded proof of all the texts for the Bible and one I know many don't like is 1 Joh 5:7 and he asked for proof and so he then put it in.

Well anyway when we fully repent and die of self we become a new creature born again of His Spirit walking after the Spirit and no longer self so that verse certainly is very valid and true.

Rom 8:1 and 1 Joh 5:7 are upheld by other scriptures and we read this,

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[tremble]

So tremble, when Jesus says forsake all, he means we abolish private ownership and share and care for each other's needs?

Hi Rubiks. Yes, that is clear from the lifestyle he and his followers lived. The description of the early church in acts actually says such word for word. It's a consistent theme all throughout the gospels and the NT.

But does it really sound so bad? I mean sure, it can be inconvenient at times when we want to do something with a material item, but other Christians disagree with what we want. For example, lets say I want to drive the car to a shopping centre 20 miles away because I think that particular shop will have what I'm looking for, but the other Christians I live/share with think it's a waste of petrol to drive so far when I can just walk down to the local shops and find something similar to what I'm looking for.

Or maybe for dinner I will want hot dogs but other people will want hamburgers. If there is a majority of people who prefer hamburgers then I may need to let go of my personal desire until another time.

Or maybe I will want to watch a particular movie but other people think it's to violent or it has too much sex. Because the electronics are communally owned, I can't just refuse to listen to them and use the stuff to do what I want anyway.

There are so many examples where living together can be an inconvenience, but those inconveniences are almost always over petty opinion issues which don't really matter all that much in the grand scheme of eternity and God's plan for the world.

People tend to base their opinions on their own personal biases and so they often see the worst in a situation instead of seeing all the good.

Jesus said that the world will believe through our unity; JN 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

When people argue against communal living/sharing, they argue against one of the most powerful witnessing tools God has given us.

I would very likely want to get rid of a lot of stuff I don't use and well as my toys. I do believe God wants me to care for my family's needs, and I do believe he wants me to use wealth to accomplish his will.

I think it's good that you are considering cutting down on the stuff you don't use. It shows that you do see at least some truth in what I'm saying. Please do keep working on that.

As for the second sentence above, think about it; Jesus could have been born as the most wealthy king in all the world. He could have used his fabulous wealth and awesome kingly power to create laws and initiate projects to help the world become a better place.

But he didn't. He did the exact opposite. God caused him to be born into one of the poorest situations possible, in a stable for animals and with no political authority whatsoever. Why?

God doesn't need our wealth to accomplish his will. He wants our time. He wants our loyalty; things money just cannot buy.

 

[Omena]

I think this is a good time to bring it all back to the original point of the this thread, which is to get us considering the fact that we all believe God can give us eternal life. So, by comparison, does it really seem so impossible that God can miraculously feed and clothe us? I believe he can, I believe it really is good news (because I can't really see how in any way it can be bad news).

Some people have tried to argue that it is testing God to stop working for money, but if that were true, why would Jesus tell us to do exactly that? Do people believe Jesus was testing God? If you ask me, testing God is going AGAINST what he tells us to do, and then expecting him to be patient with us.

 

[NannaNae]

"The most common passage referred to when arguing that Jesus never meant for us to take him literally is where he says that if our eye offends us we should pluck it out, or if our hand offends us, we should cut it off." first that is a lousy quote and wrong. first of all it is a prophesy not really as much a moral lesson... but it is both.


no but there WILL BE right handless and right eyeless people soon enough .. yes there will be once these figure out what they did to themselves or let be done to them . This scripture is about a certain time and it is no exaggeration. It is really about a right hand and a right eye.... and it a huge deal because they will know He really means hell. Jesus is just giving them/us hope I think.. ( I hope it isn't too late now, how many of us have willingly given a beast ( also known as a guberment of men ) our right hand prints ? that is the signature of men/ their mark= signature / their calculations=biological measurements.

The sad part here is once they/we ( if I have too because I already gave them my fingerprints YES FROM MY RIGHT HAND!!!) cut it off and poke it out they are now walking targets by the worldly.. and that is going to be well it is really hell. that is the reason, the few who do it will sit on his thrown.. because very few will do it.

the other "exaggerations "mentioned are also prophecies , everything recorded by Jesus is not idle words but like David everything will be found to have been fulfilled just as said .

In the same way he turned to probably Paul and said all things are possible after tell the rich young man that passing a camel through the eye of a needle was possible... paul sure was drug through that gate called the camel gate...... where the camels have to be unloaded their baggage in order to walk through that gate. I believe we will find that everything Jesus said was prophetic!

 

[Bramwell]

Omena wrote:

Some people have tried to argue that it is testing God to stop working for money, but if that were true, why would Jesus tell us to do exactly that? Do people believe Jesus was testing God? If you ask me, testing God is going AGAINST what he tells us to do, and then expecting him to be patient with us.

IJesus' teachings about money make Him different from the leaders of all other religions. From Islam to Buddhism, most religions feature prophets who their adherents believe did miracles. And most of these religions have guidelines which they say one must adhere to in order to enter paradise, Heaven, etc.

But what really makes Jesus unique is His teachings... about money in particular. As Omena mentioned, it really does take faith to trust that God will feed & clothe those who do His will. Without visible means of support, one really would be "living" by faith. I can't think of a way apart from Christianity where people live like that.

 

[Gibs]

Omena wrote:

IJesus' teachings about money make Him different from the leaders of all other religions. From Islam to Buddhism, most religions feature prophets who their adherents believe did miracles. And most of these religions have guidelines which they say one must adhere to in order to enter paradise, Heaven, etc.

But what really makes Jesus unique is His teachings... about money in particular. As Omena mentioned, it really does take faith to trust that God will feed & clothe those who do His will. Without visible means of support, one really would be "living" by faith. I can't think of a way apart from Christianity where people live like that.

What is bad and is breaking the law of love is the one who won't work and goes out and steals and cheats to get it, that is the condemned way!

 

[LilLamb219]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has undergone a tiny clean up. Please remember address the topic and not the person. There are some outright flames and then also some little jabs here and there. Stop. Stick to the topic and no one will be insulted!

MOD HAT OFF

 

[tremble]

"The most common passage referred to when arguing that Jesus never meant for us to take him literally is where he says that if our eye offends us we should pluck it out, or if our hand offends us, we should cut it off." first that is a lousy quote and wrong. first of all it is a prophesy not really as much a moral lesson... but it is both.

HI Nanna. Mmmm, in your excitement about finding something to poke holes in you seem you have listed two firsts. Is it a lousy quote first or a prophecy first? ^.^

 

[tremble]

I think this is a good time to bring it all back to the original point of the this thread, which is to get us considering the fact that we all believe God can give us eternal life. So, by comparison, does it really seem so impossible that God can miraculously feed and clothe us? I believe he can, I believe it really is good news (because I can't really see how in any way it can be bad news).

From what I've seen, the majority of the time it seems to be fear which stops people from considering this teaching seriously. They wonder how they will pay the bills if they stop working for money and start working for love. Working for love is good in theory at at times people will volunteer for various projects, but it won't pay the bills. I can't tell the land lord to accept love; he will want actual payment.

So much of what Jesus said required belief. We believe in money because we can see it. We can touch it. We can manipulate and control it. We understand how it works. We grew up with it as our source of provision.

To suddenly stop working for it is like turning our back on everything we know about surviving in life. It sounds crazy and dangerous.

But is it really crazy? Is it really dangerous? Sure, we feel that way, but is it really the truth? Will we really die if we trust God to take care of us instead of trusting in the systems of man?

Jesus sent the disciples on outreach without taking anything with them except the clothes on their backs. Later, he asked them, "when I sent you out without anything thing, did you lack anything you needed"? And they said, "No".

That is scriptural. It is evidence that God can take care of us and that Jesus really meant what he said about trusting God. We put the control over our lives back into God's hands. If we stop listening to God then maybe we really will starve, but can you see that's the point? God is more important than even the basic necessities we need to survive. Remember, "Give us today our daily bread"? God wants us to depend on him every day. That is why we are created. The whole point of even existing is to do what Jesus told us to do with life.

With money, we don't need to listen to God. The atheist doesn't care about what God wants but it doesn't matter to him because God isn't his provider; money is. Money represents a means of control. That is why the AntiChrist will use an economic system to control people.

The Mark of the Beast prophecy says that people will not be able to buy or sell without his Mark. For those who depend on the worldly system of wages, they will almost certainly be tricked into following the Beast. And because it's only buying and selling, such a normal everyday activity necessary for survival, they will not see it as a spiritual battle.

Whether the Mark is just around the corner or decades away doesn't matter. The prophecy is proof in itself that the Beast will use financial pressure to control people. He will use their fear of total dependence on God against them and he will make it look normal to do so.

 

[NannaNae]

HI Nanna. Mmmm, in your excitement about finding something to poke holes in you seem you have listed two firsts. Is it a lousy quote first or a prophecy first? ^.^

ok so maybe I only have one finger !

There are a few quotes(listed below in part ( oops may have to get this later have hot spot issues)) in the new testament of Jesus speaking this statement. and two I believe state "right hand" and "right eye" all in the same context . so now take your pick what you think his motives are for being so specific.. or maybe what their humanities is in that it hears what it needs too ( which is probably the case here ) or some people sometimes just what someone wants to hear . because his word and his spirit is alive he can say different things to different people and use the same words. and sinners will use those difference to justify whatever they want too ( i'm not talking about your quote but just human nature and militant sinners in general)

so either this quote is an incomplete version of one quote made by him .. or it is one where he intended one thing for one story and there are others he indented other things ! non of which are a lie or an exaggeration .... because his spirit is more alive than our flesh is and it can can filter for the hearer just like our flesh does or tries too . but what he really said is not either an exaggeration or a lie! he means it in every form a man can hear it.





Mat 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

in light of prophesy like the one below.. it is a was, is on going , and will be kind of prophesy, because it is being double witnessed.



Zec 11:17
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

oh yes he is saying stuff and things no one should ignore or flippantly call exaggerated.. He is not exaggerating anything. he is talking about right hands and right eyes for a reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSeTVM4aids&feature=youtu.be

it's here ..now let us talk about exaggerations!

 

[NannaNae]

Mat 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 18:9
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mar 9:47
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

obviously Jesus was serious as your next heart beat about these concepts... I am pretty sure Jesus ain't exaggerating anything !

 

[Boidae]

Mat 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 18:9
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mar 9:47
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

obviously Jesus was serious as your next heart beat about these concepts... I am pretty sure Jesus ain't exaggerating anything !

So are you saying that you take the pages above seriously?

 

[tremble]

obviously Jesus was serious as your next heart beat about these concepts... I am pretty sure Jesus ain't exaggerating anything !

Hi Nanna. There may be a misunderstanding here. The title of this thread uses a question mark at the end, to indicate that it is not a statement being made, but rather a question being asked.

The conclusion in the study is that Jesus was not exaggerating. Here is a paragraph from the study which may help to clarify what I think is a misunderstanding.
---------------
In fact, if you return to the first illustration above, you will observe that the very point Jesus was trying to make with what he said about cutting off hands and plucking out eyes was that, if eternal life is a reality, then even losing a limb in order to obtain it is a small price to pay. If you read our article "Cut Off Your Hand!" you will see that we observe there that it isn't really hands and eyes that cause us to sin, but rather it is certain attitudes, the most insidious of them being that God doesn't expect us to do or believe anything extreme, which keep us from the kingdom of heaven and all that goes with it. If cutting off my hand really was the one thing keeping me from having eternal life, then obviously it would be stupid of me not to do it. And so the point Jesus was making was not an exaggeration at all. He meant it exactly the way he said it. Until we stop laughing at it as being ridiculous and get deadly serious about what it is saying, we will never truly appreciate what he was saying.
-----------------

 

[tremble]

So are you saying that you take the pages above seriously?

Hi Boidae, I wonder if you realize just how strange your question sounds. It's like asking, "Do you think Jesus actually meant what he said"?

The question implies that there are some teachings of Jesus which we should not take seriously. That is the issue which the study is trying to deal with in the first place by pointing out our tendency to view some of Jesus' teachings as exaggerations.

Yes, some of them are extreme, but that is not the same as exaggeration.

 

[Boidae]

Hi Boidae, I wonder if you realize just how strange your question sounds. It's like asking, "Do you think Jesus actually meant what he said"?

The question implies that there are some teachings of Jesus which we should not take seriously. That is the issue which the study is trying to deal with in the first place by pointing out our tendency to view some of Jesus' teachings as exaggerations.

Yes, some of them are extreme, but that is not the same as exaggeration.

I was asking the other poster that question as she seems to take her above verses seriously. My question only had to do with her post, nothing more. For me it's not a strange question, is getting clarification from the poster.

As you already know, I disagree with you.