Evolution and Santa Claus/ /Commonalities of Illusions

MSBS

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The cichlid fishes seem to be an interesting case. Where I think a little confusion stems from is what is meant by "potentially mate". It looks like what is meant is that in the normal course of events they would mate if they were around each other. It suggests to me you can still call two populations the same species if they are geographicly isolated, but would mate where they exposed to each other.

With the cichlids there was a prezygotic barrier due to mate choice, so that they did not mate in the normal course of events. Now, in the changed environment, mate selection breaks down and they are thus begining to hybridize where as before the where didn't. Much like lions and tigers don't mate in the wild but will if caged together-- there is no genetic barrier to their mating, it's behavioral.
 
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The explanation for how our kind of people came to be on this planet in the numbers and diversity in which we exist is the template for which some scientists must be able to offer a description in order for their evolution theory to be a workable hypothesis. Such a hypothesis must account for the known fossil evidence or it is not science and so can't be a theory. If such a hypothesis fails to account for the known fossil evidence then it is just a fantasy, or, even worse, propaganda.

All of the hominid skulls found by science, and of which a categorical representation is displayed by the Smithsonian Institution on their website, are the known fossil evidence. Only one type of hominid skull displayed is representative of the existing species of hominid on the planet at this time. That hominid skull is of the Cro-Magnon. All of the previously dated skulls represented in the display are substantially different and, scientifically, are differentiated in numerous measurements. The Cro-Magnon skulls are dated to 30,000 year ago and there is no intermediate species that could be a link to the more primitive appearing species of hominids. Such a link must be scientifically proven, and not just believed in, for a theory of evolution to be viable. For every theory presented about anything there is a key question that can be asked at every stage of the theory that gets right to the truth of the theory and ultimately determines it's viability. That key question for the evolution theory is, "How does the fossil evidence link Cro-Magnon to the next previous hominid from which it derived?"

As all scientists know, judging from the fossil evidence, there is no evidence that links Cro-Magnon to any previous species of hominid. The people who profess that the link exists but that we just haven't found it are not scientifically minded, are being deceitful, or are being deluded. The first is understandable, the second is shameful, and the third is reprehensible. When the people in society are purposely deluded by the corporate/science, that delusion affects the collective science by stunting it's advancement as well as stunting the thought explorations by the scientifically minded students. This, of course, is one of the detrimental effects of imposing impractical theories for which the science doesn't support.

That stunting of scientific progress and of the mental growth of the students has other disagreeable affects. When the students learn a lie as truth, they cannot assimilate knowledge in it's proper ascendancy. They lose the ability to perceive truth from falseness and so their accumulation of knowledge is erratic and perverted. This leads them to question truth, even when it is self evident, and to accept falseness if it flatters the previous lies they have been told. This perversion of student's thought processes has detrimental effects on their everyday lives away from science in that it makes them skeptical. When confronted with truth or goodness, they scoff. They become inured to the general society around them and become cynical. This undesirable trait is manifested nationally, and globally.

The ultimate manifestation of the perversion of society's beliefs is expressed not in the callousness and brutal crime of society, which is thoroughly displayed, but in the militarism of nations and their eagerness to war for the most trivial of reasons.
 
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Originally posted by John MacNeil
The people who profess that the link exists but that we just haven't found it are not scientifically minded, are being deceitful, or are being deluded.

Translation: All Scientists are Stupid Liars

Since you're already a member of the club, we'll have to come up with a Major Award to acknowledge your contribution. Anyone have any ideas?
 
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How amusing, ..you kids are! Not very bright, or original, but amusing nonetheless, with your "Discover" magazine understanding of science. You must have had quite a cozy time regaling Christians with your wit and your scientisms, disparaging their belief while expounding a more unbelieveable belief that you seem absolutely clueless about the workings of. The discussion forum seems to be a game to you and your kind, a place where you can "score points" or "win" a discussion. You seem to not know you are a caricature, a false front for notions that are not believed by any of the scientists in the hierarchy of modern science.

Ah,...Well...eventually you will realize the truth, as you see the modern science community abandon the childish theories of yesterday as science quickly outpaces their fantasy.

There is no shame in not understanding science, but there is shame in apathy toward reality while espousing dogma.

The reason I have, several time, mentioned the need for evolutionists to delineate the connection between the first Cro-Magnon babies and the hominid species that produced them, is because we have physical evidence of all the hominids that lived in the timeframe in which the Cro-Magnon babies could be produced. That is the deciding factor in determining ancestry, and, ultimately, the viability of evolution. If the proponents of evolution can't recognize that, then they, in their ignorance, have no business professing evolution.
 
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chickenman

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I will have finished my science degree in approximately 2 weeks, but apparently I have a "discover" magazine understanding of science

I don't read discover magazine, I usually read nature and science - obviously you don't or you'd realise that evolution isn't going away and that the modern science community isn't going to abandon it. That you have the gall to berate our understanding of science when you quite clearly didn't have the slightest clue about the risch paper is funny and sad at the same time.

Like I said, if you ever want to discuss the evidence for the common ancestry of humans with other primates rather than embarass yourself further by displaying your disconnection with the scientific reality - take a gander at the urate oxidase pseudogene thread.
 
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Lucaspa: In the biological species concept, the populations have to ACTUALLY mate.

Lucaspa: Biological species are defined as "different species represent different gene pools, which are goups of interbreeding or pontentially interbreeding individuals that do not exchange genes with other such groups." D Futuyma Evolutionary Biology pg 27
 
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MSBS

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John MacNeil,

    Resorting to name calling when an argument doesn't go your way is a mark of immaturity.  It's telling that you have now abandoned all your arguments and have indulged in ad hominem attacks.  All I can say is that I'm glad that my graduate comitee has a better understanding of science than you do, because otherwise I wouldn't be graduating with an MS in Cellular and Molecular Biology next month.  The sad thing is that while you are accusing people of having a discover magazine level of understanding in science, you have proven, through the statements you have made here, that you don't even have that level of understanding.  I'm sorry your arguments have fallen apart and that you are upset with us-- but you are the one who choose to flaunt your ignorance in public and you got what you had comming.  There are plenty of boards on the internet where no one will challenge you.....why not try one of them since you can't take critisism?

BTW, to set the record strait, I have not once belittled christian beliefs.  I have made it clear that I don't think very much of YEC, but so far as I know that is not an essential component of christianity.  I have friends that are christians, and as I was raised a christian (allthough I no longer go to church) I hold reverence and respect for christianity.  I find it silly that someone such as yourself bases their faith on a strict dogma that forces them to deny reality in order to feel safe within their religion.
 
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chickenman: Like I said, if you ever want to discuss the evidence for the common ancestry of humans with other primates rather than embarass yourself further by displaying your disconnection with the scientific reality - take a gander at the urate oxidase pseudogene thread.

DNAunion: The cincher for me was the fused chromosome. Chimps have 48 (24 pairs) and humans have 46 (23 pairs). I used to bring this (and other things) up when evolutionists said our DNA was 98.5% identical to chimps. Then someone gave an explanation for this difference: our common ancestor had 48 chromosomes but in our lineage there was a fusion: two separate chromosomes fused to become one.

An ad hoc explanation? Nope. Unfortunately I don't have a link, but believe me (some will, some won't), it's a very solid case. Not only has the chromosome been determined, but the exact site of the fusion as well.

I might take a few minutes and see if I can find a link to a discussion at Infidels. ... I'm back. This looks like it might be the one.

http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001305&p=
 
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My..my....how sensitive you are! I have stoically endured insults and you take umbrage at perceived name-calling. To enter the world of science, you're going to have to grow a slightly thicker skin. By the way, I don't mean to insult anyone, I merely express my amusement.

Perhaps you, in your youth and with your inexperience, don't know what a scientist really is. A scientist is an investigator who searches for the truth about nature. No one can really be a scientist if they don't adhere to that standard. They could call themselves a scientist, but they wouldn't really be one if they ignored the physical evidence in favor of the hypothetical.

People can come up with any number of arguments that link us to evolution if they resort to fantasy. They can believe we evolved from monkeys, mice or pigs, or any other species that we happen to share DNA with. They can go back millions or billions of year to try and elaborately prove their case, but if they ignore the physical evidence that we have here in the present so that their pet theory can appear to have validity, then that is just daydreaming on their part.

Back when Darwin was proposing evolution theory, there was no conceptual idea of DNA. Genes, what were they back then, but something you wore when you worked in the fields? Relativity? Why, it was another half a century before that was formulated. Their understanding of science back then was primitive compared to what our understanding of science is today, and so it will be for every class of science as science marches on, irresolutely. We know now that genes determine the kind of growth. The hominids that lived in the pertinent time period and that could have been the only ones present on the planet to give birth to Cro-Magnon babies do not share our complete DNA sequence. That link to a hominid species that lived before and which, theoretically, produced us must be established for evolution theory to be viable. That is not just one of the requirements, it is the only requirement. If that link can be established, then science will have to connect the relationship to the next stage and then the next stage after that, until a clear picture emerges. If the physical evidence is ignored in favor of speculation, then that is not real science.

I can tell by your postings that you youngsters don't read other people's posts with an objective view. Your preconceived notions determine your understanding of what you read and you interpret what you want to believe. You seem to be under the impression that I am a Christian and that I base my argument on my Christian beliefs, when the fact of the matter is, that I call no person or being God and I adhere to no religion or religious organization. I have stated in previous posts that my view is the scientific view, and that empirical description is the pattern which I follow. Your inability to process that information is not surprising, since your inability, or reluctance, to address the known evidence is apparent. When I say that evolution theory doesn't work, since the fossil evidence proves it doesn't include all species on the planet, that is from a purely scientific view. When I say that the Bible presents the only viable theory that has ever been presented which describes our being on this planet and as being delineated from all other hominid species, then that is also from a purely scientific view. If you allow your prejudice against a belief in God to obstruct your objective thought, then that is your problem and you will have to work it out if you wish to be the best scientist you can be.
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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Originally posted by John MacNeil
My..my....how sensitive you are! I have stoically endured insults and you take umbrage at perceived name-calling. To enter the world of science, you're going to have to grow a slightly thicker skin. By the way, I don't mean to insult anyone, I merely express my amusement.

Perhaps you, in your youth and with your inexperience, don't know what a scientist really is. A scientist is an investigator who searches for the truth about nature. No one can really be a scientist if they don't adhere to that standard. They could call themselves a scientist, but they wouldn't really be one if they ignored the physical evidence in favor of the hypothetical.

People can come up with any number of arguments that link us to evolution if they resort to fantasy. They can believe we evolved from monkeys, mice or pigs, or any other species that we happen to share DNA with. They can go back millions or billions of year to try and elaborately prove their case, but if they ignore the physical evidence that we have here in the present so that their pet theory can appear to have validity, then that is just daydreaming on their part.

Back when Darwin was proposing evolution theory, there was no conceptual idea of DNA. Genes, what were they back then, but something you wore when you worked in the fields? Relativity? Why, it was another half a century before that was formulated. Their understanding of science back then was primitive compared to what our understanding of science is today, and so it will be for every class of science as science marches on, irresolutely. We know now that genes determine the kind of growth. The hominids that lived in the pertinent time period and that could have been the only ones present on the planet to give birth to Cro-Magnon babies do not share our complete DNA sequence. That link to a hominid species that lived before and which theoretically, produced us must be established for evolution theory to be viable. That is not just one of the requirements, it is the only requirement. If that link can be established, then science will have to connect the relationship to the next stage and then the next stage after that, until a clear picture emerges. If the physical evidence is ignored in favor of speculation, then that is not real science.

I can tell by your postings that you youngsters don't read other people's posts with an objective view. Your preconceived notions determine your understanding of what you read and you interpret what you want to believe. You seem to be under the impression that I am a Christian and that I base my argument on my Christian beliefs, when the fact of the matter is, that I call no person or being God and I adhere to no religion or religious organization. I have stated in previous posts that my view is the scientific view, and that empirical description is the pattern which I follow. Your inability to process that information is not surprising, since your inability, or reluctance, to address the known evidence is apparent. When I say that evolution theory doesn't work, since the fossil evidence proves it doesn't include all species on the planet, that is from a purely scientific view. When I say that the Bible presents the only viable theory that has ever been presented which describes our being on this planet and as being delineated from all other hominid species, then that is also from a purely scientific view. If you allow your prejudice against a belief in God to obstruct your objective thought, then that is your problem and you will have to work it out if you wish to be the best scientist you can be.

AMEN! In the 1800's, when the theory of evolution came into being, everyone including Darwin thought that cells were just blobs of protoplasm.

So in a sense, evolution is, well, kinda outdated. :p :eek:
 
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MSBS

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MacNeil,
Sorry buddy, but I am a scientist and I am not a youth. Your "stoic endurance" started off with an insulting tone and a patronizing attitude long before anyone began throwing the like back at you. An objective view of other peoples opinions doesn't prevent one from recognizing **** when they see it. I'll say it again since you seem to have failed to read my posts. I have no prejudice against God or believers in God. I think your specific opinions about science, sociology, and your interpretation of the Bible are wrong and somewhat foolish, and I don't like your attitude, but I have nothing against Christians or Christianity.
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by John MacNeil All of the hominid skulls found by science, and of which a categorical representation is displayed by the Smithsonian Institution on their website, are the known fossil evidence. Only one type of hominid skull displayed is representative of the existing species of hominid on the planet at this time. That hominid skull is of the Cro-Magnon. All of the previously dated skulls represented in the display are substantially different and, scientifically, are differentiated in numerous measurements. The Cro-Magnon skulls are dated to 30,000 year ago and there is no intermediate species that could be a link to the more primitive appearing species of hominids.

But I posted intermediate individuals that link H. sapiens (Cro-Magnon) with H. erectus.  The differences are not "substantial" and show an intermediate character. Such as the skulls from the Olmo I and II sites in Africa.

Now, why don't you specify those "numerous measurements" for us.  Citations, please.

Such a link must be scientifically proven, and not just believed in, for a theory of evolution to be viable.

Fossils are not the only evidence.  Of course, you also limited yours to the "skull" didn't you? Ever think that there are more bones in the body than the skull?
Tompkins RL. Relative dental development of Upper Pleistocene hominids compared to human population variation. Am J Phys Anthropol 1996; 99(1):103-118.

13: Am J Phys Anthropol 1999 Nov;110(3):365-77

Ontogeny and phylogeny of femoro-tibial characters in humans and hominid fossils: functional influence and genetic determinism.Tardieu C  U.R.A.1137 C.N.R.S., Laboratoire d'Anatomie Comparee, M.N.H.N., 75005 Paris,
France. tardieu@mnhn.fr

"Three different human femoro-tibial characters are selected as functionally relevant and derived hominid characters: femoral bicondylar angle, shape of the femoral distal epiphysis, and the tibial insertion of the lateral meniscus. The timing and mode of formation of these characters are investigated during human
ontogeny and are shown to differ considerably. The available hominid fossils (Australopithecus afarensis and early Homo) are interpreted in the light of this ontogenetic analysis with the conclusion that, during hominid evolution, different modes of selection of these features must have occurred. In modern
humans, the femoral bicondylar angle proves to be an epigenetic functional feature, which develops during early childhood growth. It is present in all australopithecines and we suggest that it developed following a change in their locomotor behavior and not upon a genomic change: the early practice of bipedal walking, with adducted knee joints, in the locomotor repertoire of infant
australopithecines, was sufficient to promote this angle. Later in hominid evolution, the knee joint evolved from having a single insertion of the lateral meniscus on the tibia to a double one. While Australopithecus afarensis exhibits a single insertion, early Homo clearly exhibits a double insertion of the lateral meniscus on the tibia. The double insertion restricts the mobility of
the meniscus on the tibial plateau, indicating a habitual practice of full extension movements of the knee joint. Among modern humans, the posterior insertion of the lateral meniscus appears early in fetal life. Consequently in early Homo, this new selected feature developed directly as a result of a genomic change. The derived shape of human distal femoral epiphysis includes a prominence of the lateral lip of the femoral trochlea, an elliptical profile of the lateral condyle, and an anteroposterior lengthening of the epiphysis.  Analysis of human fetal and neonatal distal epiphyses shows that the prominence of the lateral lip of the trochlea arises before any use, and thus appears to be genetically determined. However, the postnatal development of this joint shows that this feature is also modified epigenetically by use. It is argued that the hominid femoro-patellar joint would have been reshaped following the process of genetic assimilation (Waddington [1942] Nature 3811:563-565)."

The body of the paper lists individual fossils from A. afarensis, H. habilis, H. erectus, and H. sapiens showing the transition of the features.

Of course, if you want "proof" of the transition in brain volume, there is this paper.
Leigh SR. Cranial capacity evolution in Homo erectus and early Homo sapiens. Am J Phys Anthropol 1992; 87(1):1-13.

That key question for the evolution theory is, "How does the fossil evidence link Cro-Magnon to the next previous hominid from which it derived?"

As all scientists know, judging from the fossil evidence, there is no evidence that links Cro-Magnon to any previous species of hominid
.

Hmm, you seem to be able to ignore the links I've stated, don't you?  You seem to be forgetting the scientists whose papers I'm posting.  Do your PubMed search and then get back to us.

The people who profess that the link exists but that we just haven't found it are not scientifically minded,

We are claiming that the transistional individuals exist and have been found. A couple of dozen of them.  Fossils with features so mixed between H. sapiens and H. erectus that it is arbitrary as to which species you assign them to.
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by MSBS
The cichlid fishes seem to be an interesting case. Where I think a little confusion stems from is what is meant by "potentially mate". It looks like what is meant is that in the normal course of events they would mate if they were around each other. It suggests to me you can still call two populations the same species if they are geographicly isolated, but would mate where they exposed to each other.

With the cichlids there was a prezygotic barrier due to mate choice, so that they did not mate in the normal course of events. Now, in the changed environment, mate selection breaks down and they are thus begining to hybridize where as before the where didn't. Much like lions and tigers don't mate in the wild but will if caged together-- there is no genetic barrier to their mating, it's behavioral.

1. You are quite correct that for geographically isolated populations there is the potential for mating if they could be brought into contact.  An example is the skunk cabbage. Populations in China and NE USA, but if they are transported and placed in proximity, they are interfertile. 

2. But if the populations are in geographical contact and don't mate on their own, then you have 2 different species.  Even if artificial insemination would produce living offspring as in the lions and tigers.

3. You also have to look at the viability of the hybrids, both the F1 (first generation) and the F2 (F1 bred back to the original populations).  While the F1 may be viable, it may not be able to breed back to the original populalations (mules) or the F2's may not be as viable as the originals and therefore not be able to compete. 

4. Most of the cichlids are examples of sympatric speciation -- where there is geographic contact but they are ecologically separated due to diet, living in shallow vs deep water, etc.  Then mate selection comes into it. For the cichlids I would bet that we are going to have to wait to see how the F1 and F2 hybrids do.
 
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