Evilution VS Evolution

[Cimorene]

My son is in High School taking advanced college classes like chemistry and computer engineering. He is in many of the bands at the High School and he just started a part time job. He does not have time for stuff like this.

I'm a sophomore at a HS for gifted kids that's run by one of the top colleges in the world. All of my classes are university level. I took several of the math classes your son had in HS in MS. I'm also taking a class at UBC & I'm in the youth orchestra. I haven't started my part time job yet but I just got hired. I'll start next month. If this was something that HE cared about and HE wanted to talk about on this board, he'd join. You can post from your phone in a few seconds of time. Most of us don't just sit on this forum all day long. You should have more respect for him & let him speak for himself. I'm def. interested to know if he has the same thoughts about evolution & stuff as you do. It's extremely bizarre you posted his transcript here. This entire thread is extremely bizarre. Most of your threads have been extremely bizarre TBH. Has your son read any of your posts here?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

This entire thread is extremely bizarre

It has been quite a wandering road, hasn't it!

 

[Hoghead1]

I am 64 years old. That is old enough to be a grandfather and you would think I would be out of touch with high school students. Only my second SON just graduated from High School. So I am VERY much aware of what they are teaching, testing for and requiring out of a High School Student. In fact we had a foreign exchange high school student from China. That year he had the BEST math scores in the High School. So I am well aware of what they require the High School Students in China to know and understand. Because of long conversations that we had on that subject. The conversation usually started with: American Students do not take their education serious and they are not going to be able to keep up with us.

Like I said before: the voters control the school board. We just threw two people off of the board here because they did not represent the voters. The next election we will be replacing two more people on the board. So we do have quite a bit of control over the educational process and what they are teaching our kids. But most of this discussion was on a different forum then this one. Still if you have ever heard of the "monkey trials" then you will know that this is a very real issue for evolution. As well as other court cases that has to do with the schools and the teaching of the theory of Evolution.

Many people on both sides of this issue are VERY concerned with what we are teaching in the High School and that is a LOT of the reason for what goes on here. Our students are VERY busy and they simply do not have time for the sort of discussion that is going on here on this forum. They are to busy getting their education and trying to figure out how to pay for it. Or they are destined to work at McDonald's and do not take getting an education serious.

Look, everyone has heard of the Scopes Trial. If anything, it was the greatest PR disaster ever for the Bible Belt and right-wing fundamentalists. It simply showed their intolerance. It was another key illustration of their SOP, which is that any scholar who dares disagree with the fundamentalist version of the Bible is automatically written off as ignorant, a child of the Devil, you name it. The irony of the trial is that it never was proven anything having to do with evolution was actually taught in that classroom that day. The teacher was a phys. ed. instructor who had no background in science or evolution and who was called in as a substitute that day.

 

[Hoghead1]

If, by "rationalize all suffering as some kind of test", you mean that the people who cause the suffering are justified, then you'd be very far from my position.

Suffering happens because of the choices people make. I think God has a very strong interest in people not causing suffering to one another, but he can't (and I use the term within the context of what we humans are able to understand of this topic from our limited experience) force them to stop without breaking the integrity of free will.

Some people experience a great deal of suffering and they manage to work through it. Some people experience suffering and they become hardened and bitter. And then there is a whole spectrum in between. I don't know the experiences of each individual, but I do know that we are designed to overcome, learn, and grow. I think that can express itself in a million different ways depending on the individual and the circumstances. We are designed to exercise integrity, loyalty, faithfulness, justice, compassion and a whole list of other positive adjectives. The people who cause suffering make choices to stop seeking these things.

I definitely agree with you here. However, some people still stick with the notion that suffering is a stress test given us by God.

 

[Hoghead1]

I'm a sophomore at a HS for gifted kids that's run by one of the top colleges in the world. All of my classes are university level. I took several of the math classes your son had in HS in MS. I'm also taking a class at UBC & I'm in the youth orchestra. I haven't started my part time job yet but I just got hired. I'll start next month. If this was something that HE cared about and HE wanted to talk about on this board, he'd join. You can post from your phone in a few seconds of time. Most of us don't just sit on this forum all day long. You should have more respect for him & let him speak for himself. I'm def. interested to know if he has the same thoughts about evolution & stuff as you do. It's extremely bizarre you posted his transcript here. This entire thread is extremely bizarre. Most of your threads have been extremely bizarre TBH. Has your son read any of your posts here?

Good post. Shows you are on the ball. I'm curious abut your interest music, but that is a topic for another thread.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Thank you for this post, DH. I think it's quite helpful in narrowing down the point to the lack of perfection and attempting to clarify what "perfect" actually means. I had a look back and discovered that A LOT was said back and forth on this issue and I think a fair bit of it was lost in the mix. Earlier you commented...



I'm fairly certain that I never said our bodies are designed perfectly, at least in the sense that there is no better body possible. This is what I posted earlier on this issue...

The "perfectness" and "marvel" etc are the "evidence" used to claim ID.
But the obvious design-flaws don't fit in that model. That's the point.

A larger point, is that such "flaws" not only fit in the evolutionary model, they are actually expected in that model.

The main point, is that the anatomy of living things and the nested hierachical nature of all living things, do NOT point to ID. They point to common ancestry and evolution.

Again: the only "evidence" offered in support of ID, is the "design" of the body plan.
But, as said several times now, this "design" does not fit such a model. It fits an evolutionary model.

 

[Chris B]

If what God wants is a means of testing (or observing) our character, integrity, loyalty, and sincerity in these lesser bodies before giving us the much better bodies then perhaps these bodies really are perfect for that goal, even if, and perhaps because the bodies themselves lead to problems for us along the way. How we deal with those problems is a pretty clear indicator of our character.

I'm uncomfortable with this framework of understanding, not least because of people I've know who were tested to destruction, given more than they could bear (against the popular Christian thought that this is promised not to happen.)
I'm not sure if it comes out "right" even if our physical existence *is* drastically overmatched by a future happier eternal life.
(Romans 8:18, for instance. "For I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared to the glory that is to be revealed to us." (NASB) )

And if it is only "Pie in the sky when we die" then this is precisely "the opium of the masses": a placatory offering inducing people to be tolerant of their lot rather than rebelling against it. The ruling classes are happy to have this preached to the workers.
"The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high and lowly,
And ordered their estate."
(On the balance of references the first comma in line three is probably the original intent. Without it, as in some listings, the sentiment makes line four a re-stating of line three.
With it, it reads significantly differently without contradicting line four.)

Me, well I know of two charitable organisations which have the declared aim of ensuring people like me never get born.
Only a human judgement, and one I personally disagree with, but some clearly see me (or my parents) to be put in a position of "too much suffering" should I actually have the life ordained for me (if ordained it was). And I'm nothing like the worst off for facing a life with difficulties.
Testing times?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The "perfectness" and "marvel" etc are the "evidence" used to claim ID.
But the obvious design-flaws don't fit in that model. That's the point.

Sure, I get that's how you see it, but what did you think about the substance of my post?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I'm uncomfortable with this framework of understanding, not least because of people I've know who were tested to destruction, given more than they could bear (against the popular Christian thought that this is promised not to happen.)

Without the specifics of each individual case it's hard to know how to assess your conclusion, but from my personal experience it's pretty easy to believe I'm receiving more than I can handle when the truth is that I'm just not prepared to push through. This is why I said, "don't know the experiences of each individual, but I do know that we are designed to overcome, learn, and grow. I think that can express itself in a million different ways depending on the individual and the circumstances."

I'm not sure if it comes out "right" even if our physical existence *is* drastically overmatched by a future happier eternal life.
(Romans 8:18, for instance. "For I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared to the glory that is to be revealed to us." (NASB) )

Future comforts etc certainly are there for comfort, and I believe we need that kind of comfort, but it is a mistake to interpret them as the goal. Our purpose is to learn and grow, here, now on the Earth while we have time.

And if it is only "Pie in the sky when we die" then this is precisely "the opium of the masses": a placatory offering inducing people to be tolerant of their lot rather than rebelling against it. The ruling classes are happy to have this preached to the workers.
"The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them, high and lowly,
And ordered their estate."
(On the balance of references the first comma in line three is probably the original intent. Without it, as in some listings, the sentiment makes line four a re-stating of line three.
With it, it reads significantly differently without contradicting line four.)

I'm not sure what you mean by all this. Jesus certainly didn't describe "pie in the sky when we die", if what you mean by that phrase is that the saints will be sitting around on clouds playing harps for the rest of eternity. He described a situation where we'll be ruling the nations. Presumably there will still be humans remaining after the battle of Armageddon and it will be our job to rebuild and teach the world after that for a time, except this time we'll actually have the power to make a difference (i.e. ruling with the rod of iron).

All throughout human history God has presented humans with new challenges to overcome. The return of Jesus and the rule of the saints over the Earth will just be another phase in the spiritual development of humans, much like the rules of the OT and then the teachings of Jesus which didn't destroy those rules, but fulfilled them. Things like "eye for an eye", divorce and the old economic systems were replaced by a higher understanding of human interaction.

Who knows what new challenges we'll face in the next life but what I do believe is that we never stop learning and growing. Jesus said, "to whom much is given, more will be required". The more we learn, the more responsible we become for the world around us. It's very exciting.

Me, well I know of two charitable organisations which have the declared aim of ensuring people like me never get born.
Only a human judgement, and one I personally disagree with, but some clearly see me (or my parents) to be put in a position of "too much suffering" should I actually have the life ordained for me (if ordained it was). And I'm nothing like the worst off for facing a life with difficulties.
Testing times?

People like you never get born? Please clarify?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Sure, I get that's how you see it, but what did you think about the substance of my post?

I just told you.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I just told you.

Nah, you reminded me of your point, that a less than perfect body (according to your imagination) is evidence of design flaws. Just reminding me of your point does not address my rebuttal of that point.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Nah, you reminded me of your point, that a less than perfect body (according to your imagination) is evidence of design flaws.

Again, not according to my "imagination". According to objective, verifiable, quantifiable facts.

An energy and resource efficient system is a better design then a less energy and resource efficient system.
I would think that that is rather obvious.

Just reminding me of your point does not address my rebuttal of that point.

Maybe you need to remind me of what that rebuttal was exactly...
I must have missed it.

 

[Chris B]

Without the specifics of each individual case it's hard to know how to assess your conclusion, but from my personal experience it's pretty easy to believe I'm receiving more than I can handle when the truth is that I'm just not prepared to push through.

Two cases of suicide, in people close to me, despite the best efforts of friends and family,
and more traumatised or scarred to the point of it markedly affecting their continuing lives.

A training exercise or set of lessons with a significant casualty rate needs looking at very carefully.

Jesus certainly didn't describe "pie in the sky when we die",

Agreed. But that is what is being offered if Christianity is not actually true. Reward deferred for enduring hard times here and now. "The opium of the people", and I can understand Marx's faceted thought, here.

All throughout human history God has presented humans with new challenges to overcome.

And the majority on most if not all occasions have not?
Time and time again, "the remnant", separate from those, well, culled. And that's there up to the teachings of Jesus, if the broad and narrow ways cannot be navigated around.
I tried to find a more optimistic or universalist interpretation, but did not. Not that I could hold with a clear conscience.

Who knows what new challenges we'll face in the next life

I'm getting a little more interested in the prospect of not existing, actually. Peace and oblivion have their attractions.

but what I do believe is that we never stop learning and growing.

I've had my abilities in those areas markedly curtailed in the last three years.
I live with a thousand friends who can't really communicate with me any more.

"Jesus said, "to whom much is given, more will be required". " Yes, that and James: "those who teach will be judged with greater strictness" That's what sent me deeper into the bible theology and church history. The desire to teach correctly.
But the end result was much to my surprise.

People like you never get born? Please clarify?

There's more than one movement researching and / or campaigning to prevent autistic babies, using means from genetic selection to abortion.
It's not just some religious extremists who would prefer me dead. Some respectable concerned people would like to edit me and people like me out of existence, too.

I'm on the autistic spectrum, and I've long stories there on how I've coped, or haven't, in a world remarkably incapable of or disinclined to understand or accommodate autistic thought.

Chris

 

[PsychoSarah]

Nah, you reminded me of your point, that a less than perfect body (according to your imagination) is evidence of design flaws. Just reminding me of your point does not address my rebuttal of that point.

There are plenty of things inherently bad about our bodies. Ever notice how prone to back problems our species is? Our posture puts a lot of strain on our spines compared to animals that are quadrupedal. Furthermore, there is an easily conceivable spine shape that would ease a lot of this strain while still freeing up our hands: a natural slouch of sorts.

Our lungs are pathetically inefficient. Approximately 80% of the oxygen we breathe in comes out not as CO2, but just staying oxygen (which is part of why CPR is so effective). Btw, the fact that we even breathe oxygen in by necessity is a huge flaw, given that it is highly reactive and prone to escaping as free radicals during cellular respiration. What do these free radicals do? React with various cell components, damaging their function. Does as much to DNA as well.

 

[PsychoSarah]

There's more than one movement researching and / or campaigning to prevent autistic babies, using means from genetic selection to abortion.
It's not just some religious extremists who would prefer me dead. Some respectable concerned people would like to edit me and people like me out of existence, too.

I'm on the autistic spectrum, and I've long stories there on how I've coped, or haven't, in a world remarkably incapable of or disinclined to understand or accommodate autistic thought.

Chris

I've often wished I had never been born. I'm about as severe as autism can be without banishing all hope of ever being able to take care of myself independently. The loneliness of not understanding others in a species that is instinctively drawn to making connections with others... is heavy. A chronic sense of being separate from some greater societal whole and understanding. Desiring to be understood and to understand, fighting the disability so hard an still falling short of accepable, human, behavior. Wherever I go, a sense of offness apparently follows. I know, because I always ask people why they feel so uncomfortable and avoid me without ever speaking to me (I walk right up to them). Any willing to answer have mentioned that they got some impression that something was wrong with me, but they didn't know what.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Two cases of suicide, in people close to me, despite the best efforts of friends and family,
and more traumatised or scarred to the point of it markedly affecting their continuing lives.

A training exercise or set of lessons with a significant casualty rate needs looking at very carefully.

I don't know what happens to people who suicide. I don't even know that it's particularly wrong of them to do so, since something like that really only can be known between God and the individual. The apostle Paul declared that God will not give us more than we can take and based on my experiences of just how strong the human spirit can be, I believe it makes a pretty good case for suicide being a form of quitting, or refusing to overcome.

I know for me personally I contemplated it on several occasions, even after becoming a Christian, but eventually I came to realize that I didn't really want to die; I just didn't know how to live. Every now and then the thoughts come back to me, when I'm dealing with a difficult issue but I quickly recognize them as self pity and I'm able to move past them more efficiently. I believe God's grace is available for suicides, too, but also that such cases will be judged on the merits of their own circumstances and individual basis. There is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to personal integrity (which is what God is ultimately looking for).

Anyway, I'm sorry for your loss.

Reward deferred for enduring hard times here and now. "The opium of the people", and I can understand Marx's faceted thought, here.

It is my personal belief that the greatest reward is eternal life. The whole point of this mortal life we experience now is an exercise in appreciating life; learning, growing, and developing personal integrity, compassion, wisdom, fair judgment, understanding etc...

How can we handle immortality if we can't even appreciate this temporary life? This is the same answer to the "imperfect" bodies question; God has better bodies for us, but how can he entrust them to us if we've not learned to appreciate what we have now, despite, and perhaps even because of the obstacles they present to us?

And the majority on most if not all occasions have not?

Jesus is/was the ultimate revelation of God's will for humanity. Compare his teachings to the world around us today. Even the majority of his so-called followers barely know what he taught. They're just as caught up in the worldly system as the average atheist. There are very few people who (at least try to) practice what Jesus actually taught, especially regarding his teachings on greed and materialism. For example, this whole kerfuffle about gay marriage etc, it's so petty compared to Jesus' teachings on Greed. Christians make this big deal about gays, but what church has any rules against greed? The more wealthy a person is the more welcome they are to the average church.

"Jesus said, "to whom much is given, more will be required". " Yes, that and James: "those who teach will be judged with greater strictness" That's what sent me deeper into the bible theology and church history. The desire to teach correctly.
But the end result was much to my surprise.

What did you find?

I'm on the autistic spectrum, and I've long stories there on how I've coped, or haven't, in a world remarkably incapable of or disinclined to understand or accommodate autistic thought.

I'm glad that you've made it this far through some difficult challenges. It sounds like you've learned some valuable lessons as a result.