eternal suffering

[Tull]

It is true that the Bible says "the wages of sin is death," Rom 6:23. But Rom 3:23 says, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" And in Heb 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" These 2 vss, satisfy the penalty of Rom 6:23.
What these verses do not say is "the wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment then another death."
I wonder why Jesus never said "the wages of sin is death" instead He said,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50 ​

"Eternal punishment" "wailing and gnashing of teeth" I will visit my local funeral home today and see if any of the dead there are doing this,what motivation can there be for diluting the awful judgment for rejecting the salvation Jesus offers ?

 

[Timothew]

Lets say for the sake of argument that hell as the bible describes does not exist and you simply die eternally if you reject Jesus,which in its self is false since it is he who accepts us,what has the individual who embraces this doctrine achieved,what is the logical benefit ? and how does it achieve the goal of proclaiming the gospel,a gospel with no consequences other than non existence.....why would Jesus have told people it would be better to gouge out an eye or cut off and arm than to enter Hell whole,dead people are not concerned with such things

Okay...
Let's say (for the sake of argument) that the Bible is correct which states that the wages of sin is death, and those who reject Jesus will not have eternal life but instead will perish and will "die eternally". You asked, "what is the benefit?" Isn't the benefit obvious? The benefit is Eternal Life with Christ. How does this achieve the goal of proclaiming the gospel? Isn't this obvious? The gospel (good news) is that we no longer need to perish, we can have eternal life! The benefit of proclaiming the truth is that the truth of the gospel is proclaimed. How can you say "there are no consequences other than non existence"? That's a HUGE consequence of non belief. It is literally the difference between eternal life and eternal death. Why would Jesus say it is better to gouge out an eye or cut off an arm? Isn't it obvious? It is far better to have eternal life with no eye and no arm than it is to not have eternal life at all. Jesus even said that it is better to "enter LIFE with only one hand." You see? "Enter Life" equals receiving eternal life instead of eternal death. You say "dead people are not concerned with such things." So what? They are dead. Christ offers eternal life. Think about it. Would you rather be alive forever or dead forever? Isn't it obvious? It is better to alive forever, and the gospel message is that we can have eternal life instead of eternal death. Just what does John 3:16 say in your Bible? I'm seriously asking. (Nobody ever wants to answer that question)

 

[Der Alte]

Malachi 3:…2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offeringsin righteousness. 4"Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.…
Psalm 66:10
For You have tried us, O God; You have refined us as silver is refined.
Proverbs 17:3
The refining pot is for silver and the furnace for gold, But the LORD tests hearts.
Isaiah 1:25
"I will also turn My hand against you, And will smelt away your dross as with lye And will remove all your alloy.
Jeremiah 9:7
Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, I will refine them and assay them; For what else can I do, because of the daughter of My people?

Mal 3:2 does not say God "is" a refining fire but "he is like a refiners fire."

"Eternal punishment" "wailing and gnashing of teeth" I will visit my local funeral home today and see if any of the dead there are doing this,what motivation can there be for diluting the awful judgment for rejecting the salvation Jesus offers ?

I quoted scripture, if you have a problem with what I quoted maybe you should talk to the author.
.....In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking. These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
.....Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול]
with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD. ​

 

[Timothew]

It is true that the Bible says "the wages of sin is death,"...

And all that remains is for all of us to actually believe that the wages of sin really IS death instead of eternal torture on fire in hell.

Think about it. If the wages of sin really were eternal torture in hell, wouldn't the Bible say "The wages of sin is eternal torture in hell"? If the wages of sin really were eternal torture in hell, the Bible would NEVER say "The wages of sin is death" simply because it is FAR too important to not get this wrong. Would YOU ever say "the penalty for sin is death" if you wanted all of us to be sure that the penalty of sin is eternal torture in hell?
Obviously not! Yet you think Paul does this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Obviously, Paul believed that the penalty of sin is death, not eternal torture. The Holy Spirit knows that the penalty for sin is death, not eternal torture. God knows that the penalty for sin is death, not eternal torture.

The only thing remaining is for you and your pals to agree with the Holy Spirit that the wages of sin is death and not eternal torture on fire in hell forever. How long are you going to resist the Holy Spirit?

 

[Der Alte]

And all that remains is for all of us to actually believe that the wages of sin really IS death instead of eternal torture on fire in hell....

I thought you had me on ignore. Why did you ignore the rest of my post?

 

[Hillsage]

The only thing remaining is for you and your pals to agree with the Holy Spirit that the wages of sin is death and not eternal torture on fire in hell forever. How long are you going to resist the Holy Spirit?

And then they also need to admit that if eternal hell is the price for our sins, Jesus 'never did' and 'never will' be paying that price....because he is not in 'eternal hell'.

Nor is he floating around in the oblivion of eternal 'annihilation'.

 

[Tull]

At best all that is being said here is that the bible contradicts itself,by using one scripture to refute another,if the bible can be questioned in one area then it is suspect in all both good and bad....eternal life means eternal life but eternal torment means death.....makes no sense, again what can the motivation be and what benefit is it.

 

[Tull]

I quoted scripture, if you have a problem with what I quoted maybe you should talk to the author.

Spare me the me and God routine,you are twisting scripture and trying to make the bible seem as if it conflicts with its self

 

[Timothew]

And then they also need to admit that if eternal hell is the price for our sins, Jesus 'never did' and 'never will' be paying that price....because he is not in 'eternal hell'.

Nor is he floating around in the oblivion of eternal 'annihilation'.

Well, since Jesus IS GOD...
Death couldn't really hold Him, could it? Kinda Funny how everything holds together when what you believe is the truth, isn't it?

 

[Timothew]

At best all that is being said here is that the bible contradicts itself,by using one scripture to refute another,if the bible can be questioned in one area then it is suspect in all both good and bad....eternal life means eternal life but eternal torment means death.....makes no sense, again what can the motivation be and what benefit is it.

No, the Bible does NOT contradict itself. The Bible continually states that the penalty for sin is death, the wicked will be destroyed, they will perish. Seriously, what does John 3:16 say in your Bible? Nobody EVER wants to actually ANSWER that question! Are y'alls doctrines so weak that you can't even stand to say what John 3:16 says? Eternal torment doesn't mean death, death means death. People are never said to go to eternal torment. Read the only verse that says ANYTHING about eternal torment at all, it is in the BOR and it is referring to the devil, the seven headed beast and the false prophet.

 

[Timothew]

I thought you had me on ignore. Why did you ignore the rest of my post?

I reply to whatever I want to reply to. As you do.

What does John 3:16 say in your Bible?

Yes, I have you on ignore. That does not mean I am not allowed to read what you post IF I WANT TO!
Having you on ignore merely cleans up the thread for me, since you tend to post LONG posts which I have seen thousands of times before. I use ignore as tool FOR ME, not for you.

 

[Hillsage]

At best all that is being said here is that the bible contradicts itself,by using one scripture to refute another,if the bible can be questioned in one area then it is suspect in all both good and bad....eternal life means eternal life but eternal torment means death.....makes no sense, again what can the motivation be and what benefit is it.

Herein lies your deception...you don't know what 'eternal life' is, in the bible you have. And two, you act like God wrote the book you're reading. Who wrote the other 700 new testament translations in print over the centuries?

My advice is you should suspect your translation and don't worship the book. That is the advice followed by those seeking 'the truth' and not just seeking to defend their indoctrinated POV.

You just need to read a bible which doesn't have the Greek word aionios translated ETERNAL when it fits your theology, but then changes it, when it doesn't.

ROM 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world/aionios began,

2TI 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world/aionios began,

If God meant for the word "world" to be here it should have been kosmos. and not aionios.

And last but not least, the biggest deception verse which has aionios in it twice. But to translate it 'consistently' would point out the absolute stupidity of their translating deception.

TIT 1:2 In hope of eternal/aionios life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world/aionios began;

ETERNAL life promised before ETERNITY began! "HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM." A better translation concerning 'the Greek', but not better in defending 'the lie'.

Young's Literal Translation;
TIT 1:2 upon hope of life age-during/aionios (genetive singular feminine), which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages/aionios (genetive plural masculine),

So, if I was a translator trying to protect a doctrine, I most assuredly would also throw a word like "world" in, in place of "before the times of eternities".

 

[Hillsage]

Well, since Jesus IS GOD...
Death couldn't really hold Him, could it? Kinda Funny how everything holds together when what you believe is the truth, isn't it?

When you know 'the truth' you know that 'death not being able to hold him' isn't even relevant. The reason death couldn't hold him was because he was SINLESS and we aren't. It was OUR SINS that KILLED him on the cross. He died in our place because "the penalty for sin is DEATH", as you always post. So your rebut kind of missed that whole point which is always so important to you. The penalty for sin is DEATH and Jesus DIED to pay that price. So I say again, if 'eternal hell' or 'eternal floating around in the oblivion of eternal 'annihilation' is the penalty for sin, then JESUS NEVER PAID, NOR IS HE PAYING, THAT PRICE. I believe that's 'the truth'...plain...simple...irrefutable....IMO, of course.

 

[ClementofA]

Mal 3:2 does not say God "is" a refining fire but "he is like a refiners fire."

Correct. And you haven't replied to post #'s 256 & 257 here:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/lake-of-fire-eternal-pain.7954455/page-13

 

[Hillsage]

Seriously, what does John 3:16 say in your Bible? Nobody EVER wants to actually ANSWER that question! Are y'alls doctrines so weak that you can't even stand to say what John 3:16 says?

My doctrine doesn't take 'strong' in order to receive it?

1 Corinthians 2:6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.

AS TO YOUR VERSE in an appropriately translated Greek to English bible.

John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son - the only begotten - He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Do you notice that this Greek word does not say 'whoever believed'/(past tense) may not perish? It says "who IS believing" present tense. If you are 'believing' you are led of the spirit and you have the immortality life available for your perishable/corruptible body in this age.

NAS RSV Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Or should I say; 'the life of God' which is available 'during this age' to those who are "overcomers"

But, if you are not "believing in Him", and start believing your flesh and its lusts and sin... you die a corporeal/physical/mortal death (the penalty for sin, remember?) AND the only death Jesus died on the cross.

Then you, A CHRISTIAN who died, are dependent upon Jesus' death in your place, to attain a resurrection....just like the "whole world" that he died for when paying the penalty for ALL.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation/atonement for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Then, as a resurrected CHRISTIAN you will then be judged at the judgment seat of Christ, according to your works and sins which you committed AFTER ACCEPTING JESUS AS YOUR SAVIOR. You will do so, just like the CHRISTIAN in 1Cor 3, who was "saved, yet though as by FIRE". You'll undergo a the refining/purgative fires, just like the rest of the world that Jesus died for, and reconciled while they were still enemies.

I hope that answer wasn't too strong, for you.

 

[Der Alte]

Spare me the me and God routine,you are twisting scripture and trying to make the bible seem as if it conflicts with its self.

Once again I only quoted the scripture, so please tell me how I am twisting anything?

 

[ACandleinDarkness]

"-so why is eternal life so special?"
Eternal life is "special" because it is an offer, a promise to a race of beings that have been corrupted and made morally waste, that if they should change, turn away from the devestation of the path they are on, that they will be renewed and made to be incorruptible. It is the essence of what it means to be truly "BORN AGAIN". It is the epitome of forgiveness. It is special because it represents a love and a compassion that is not of this cold, dark and lonely world we live in. Oddly enough, it is the same reason we have a hard time trusting this special promise. Because in this world, people lie, we cheat, we deceive in so many ways that only serve to hurt one another. So when someone like God and Jesus show up with a promise that they don't wish to hurt you, that they will love you, that they can forgive you no matter the terrible things you've done, you think that there's just "no way." In a world of divorce, rape, murder, adultery, and lies? Of course it seems too good to be true. But, that is what makes it all the more rewarding. The Bible tells you that God Himself will "wipe away your tears". I have no doubts that we will cry, because for the first time in our lonely lives, we will have discovered what it really means to find HOME. A promise that has been KEPT. And a love that will LAST.

 

[Der Alte]

Correct. And you haven't replied to post #'s 256 & 257 here:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/lake-of-fire-eternal-pain.7954455/page-13

Yes, I have. Follow your link.

 

[Neogaia777]

God tried in the OT to make this world, after the fall, after what the enemy did, "just", in short, he failed, or found out it could not be done, the only way left to justify it, was to offer us a way to "eternal life", a life after this world, through making a "choice", the choice being: good or bad... Those who truly choose the good and reject the bad, God knew this life would be "hell" on earth for most, if not all, of them... They get "heaven" in exchange for that, while the ones rejecting the good and choosing the bad, would have an easy, prosperous life in this world, free from the troubles an burdens of doing and choosing "good" in this world, those delighting in sinful desires and pleasures, in this world (and this never changes for them), those who have seen and know the good, but fully knowingly of their own free will, "choosing" the bad, and fully delighting in and greatly enjoying to the full, all manner of sinful desires and pleasures, and, they call what is "bad", "good", and what is slavery, freedom, and what is truly freedom, slavery... and it would seem like "heaven on earth" for them, in exchange for this, they get hell...

God Bless!

 

[ACandleinDarkness]

Eternal suffering. This will take place in Hell. Both Man and Devil alike dwell in the abyss. We are BOTH sent their for our evil and our sins. This second "death" is what we would call a spiritual death. The eternal separation from God, of which, sadly there is no return. This truth is reflected in numerous verses throughout the Bible, but one example would be Revelation 21:8 which reads "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."