eternal suffering

[Timothew]

What's the deal with the assumption people have? Nobody thinks it's odd that kids in schools learn Spanish, French, German, Chinese, Japanese, or sign language. But it is unthinkable that a college graduate could learn to read Greek?

I've been treated shamefully on this forum. I've been accused and disrespected in every way. I've been banned from GT, told that the translations I use are no good. I've even been told that I should not read the NT in Greek, by someone who CAN'T read Greek. Nobody should have to put up with this garbage.

 

[Der Alte]

So, show me one use of the word apollumi which can't be associated with the death, or death sentence, of our bodies which will rot with corruption of a perishable 'in the grave' because we all still sin, even as Christians? IOW all apollumi takes place before the resurrection of all the apollumi dead.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish:[ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi] but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Mark 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose [ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi] his reward.
Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose [ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi] one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost,[ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi] until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose [ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi] one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost,[ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi] and is found. And they began to be merry.
John 6:12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.[ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi]
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, [ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi] but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, [ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi] though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose [ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi] not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish,[ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi] and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

 

[Hillsage]

I started reading Greek in 2009 reading just a little bit every day. It was like cutting a trail through a jungle. But I kept reading a little every day, and it opened up and I understood more and more. It's still a work in progress, I don't claim to be an expert, but I am also not the one of us who is disagreeing with the experts.

Here's where I disagree already, you absolutely are disagreeing the the experts....the experts I agree with. You are no more 'qualified' IMO as a self taught Greek reader to disagree with either side than I am as a college degreed doctor who studied Latin and Greek in school so that when you come in and say "Doc I have a runny nose and cough that just started and I have no idea where I got it." And then I can say; "Wow this sounds like an 'acute' case of 'idiopathic' 'coryza'." Which means; 'new', 'of unknown pathogenic origin', 'cough'. And charge you big bucks for turning your really good English diagnosis into Latin and Greek...making ME a respected expert.

You are, and you are not qualified to do that. You told me to get a better translation, based on nothing.

No it was based upon 'the opinion' derived from listening to both 'expert sides' give their 'expert' opinions in English and arriving at my own non-expert POV which lined up with the view that is most consistent with the whole NT.

Then you asked me what qualified me to read Greek. I gave you a good answer. I read the NT in Greek because I learned how to read in Greek.

Your explanation at first was, as I said, a bit misleading I thought. Now I'm even more assured.

I'm not telling You which translation to use, or to not use a certain translation. You told me that.

I told you in an attempt to get you to realize what several others here have realized. 'Others', who are posting here and whom I truly admit I am even learning from their inputs. Inputs which make me even more secure with the claims I'm making. All just my opinion...I do admit.

You think the translations I use are bad. You are not qualified to make that claim. I'm not making any claim other than to say based on my experience,

And my experience goes back to the 70's in seeking the truth of all this. How far does your experience go back? Hmmm maybe so much for 'experience' then I'd say.

I've even been told that I should not read the NT in Greek, by someone who CAN'T read Greek.

I never said that. I did question you as to just how qualified, you might be, that I should submit to you. And if you think about it, all you've done so far is sound like someone else who posts here all the time with the same mental type accolades expecting you and I to bow down...right?. But you don't listen to him...right? Like you've heard me say before; 'OH consistency thou art a jewel to be sought for.'

Nobody should have to put up with this garbage.

Nobody except CHRISTIANS.

You're POV is simply very much in the minority Timothew, and I know it must be frustrating, because I've been there too, over the years here. But, as I told you the other day, I really feel like I have great supporting group right now, and hope they continue to promote the truth that 'we' see.

 

[victorinus]

why do you believe in eternal suffering?

hell seems to be a popular subject -
lots of threads on it -
why is it so important for christians?

 

[hedrick]

hell seems to be a popular subject -
lots of threads on it -
why is it so important for christians?

It's one of the four or so major issues in apologetics. It matters because it's hard for many people to accept that a God of the sort Christians teach would allow hell as it is traditionally described.

 

[Lazarus Short]

hell seems to be a popular subject -
lots of threads on it -
why is it so important for christians?

I think Hell is so attractive for many people because it allows them to hope for bad things for their personal enemies. However, is there anyone in this world who lacks someone who wishes bad things for them? I expect not. Therefore, Hell theology (I call it Damnationism) relegates most everyone to Hell. Hell appeals to the carnal mind, but God tells us to be good to our enemies, thus transcending carnality. God also fails to threaten us with Hell - carnal translators did that, along with Dante, Milton, Baxter and of course, Jonathan Edwards.

 

[mmksparbud]

What's the deal with the assumption people have? Nobody thinks it's odd that kids in schools learn Spanish, French, German, Chinese, Japanese, or sign language. But it is unthinkable that a college graduate could learn to read Greek?

I've been treated shamefully on this forum. I've been accused and disrespected in every way. I've been banned from GT, told that the translations I use are no good. I've even been told that I should not read the NT in Greek, by someone who CAN'T read Greek. Nobody should have to put up with this garbage.

LOL!! Several people I know learned how to read Greek. And you don't even have to know how to read Greek yourself, there are many sites that deal with Greek translations that explain the Greek words. It is the same for Hebrew. No need to get upset about some silly person who doesn't think you should be knowledgeable about the bible in it's original language. You can read the bible in any language you want--including Greek and Hebrew----and nobody can tell you otherwise!!

 

[victorinus]

do you believe God wants anyone to suffer eternally?
-
I don't think so
-
do you believe God can do something about it?
-
I think so
-so-
why do you believe in hell?
-if you do-
you want someone to suffer eternally
-and-
that does not look good on you

 

[hedrick]

I think Hell is so attractive for many people because it allows them to hope for bad things for their personal enemies.

There's nothing wrong with being upset at evil. The Biblical ground for hell is the hope that God will vindicate the good and bring justice. This is not good news to his enemies. I think the legitimate debate is just what form that takes.

 

[Lazarus Short]

There's nothing wrong with being upset at evil. The Biblical ground for hell is the hope that God will vindicate the good and bring justice. This is not good news to his enemies. I think the legitimate debate is just what form that takes.

I believe that God's justice is not to punish, torture or annihilate the wicked, but to make them non-wicked. That is hinted at by the parable of wheat & chaff - both are together until the threshing. The chaff part of us is burned or tossed to the wind, and the wheat part of us is carefully stored. Chaff or wheat, it's us. This is confirmed by the gold/silver/precious stones versus wood/hay/stubble. God will deal with the dross in each of us, and compared to Him, the best of us are only marginally better than the worst. Remember that God told us that His ways and thoughts are far above ours, and that His Justice was to send His Own Son to die for our benefit.

I don't think this leaves any ground for Hell at all.

 

[victorinus]

There's nothing wrong with being upset at evil.

eternal suffering is evil

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

YHWH destroying the wicked is not evil, but good and righteous and true.

 

[victorinus]

I believe that God's justice is not to punish, torture or annihilate the wicked,

do you believe God can annihilate the wicked?

 

[victorinus]

YHWH destroying the wicked is not evil, but good and righteous and true.

destroying the wicked is possible for God

 

[Kenny'sID]

I think Hell is so attractive for many people because it allows them to hope for bad things for their personal enemies. However, is there anyone in this world who lacks someone who wishes bad things for them? I expect not. Therefore, Hell theology (I call it Damnationism) relegates most everyone to Hell. Hell appeals to the carnal mind, but God tells us to be good to our enemies, thus transcending carnality. God also fails to threaten us with Hell - carnal translators did that, along with Dante, Milton, Baxter and of course, Jonathan Edwards.

For "many" people?

Do you feel that is the general reason for the interest in Hell? Assuming you only mean Christians since they are the ones who generally believe in Hell, do you mean "many" as in most, a few., almost all? See many can cover every one of those is why I ask. I also ask because I haven't noticed that to be the case in general but it does sound like something an Atheist (not sure if you are atheist or not) might happily bring up because they ran into a high and mighty Christian or two with that attitude or someone they misunderstood and read that attitude into.

God "threatens us with Hell" no doubt in my mind. He created it and set up the rules for who goes...that's the biggest threat of all. Just because he doesn't constantly pound away at it in the Bible doesn't mean he doesn't mean business.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I believe that God's justice is not to punish, torture or annihilate the wicked, but to make them non-wicked. That is hinted at by the parable of wheat & chaff - both are together until the threshing. The chaff part of us is burned or tossed to the wind, and the wheat part of us is carefully stored. Chaff or wheat, it's us. This is confirmed by the gold/silver/precious stones versus wood/hay/stubble. God will deal with the dross in each of us, and compared to Him, the best of us are only marginally better than the worst. Remember that God told us that His ways and thoughts are far above ours, and that His Justice was to send His Own Son to die for our benefit.

I don't think this leaves any ground for Hell at all.

Before I comment further, I'm just learning about it here so forgive me if I'm wrong, but you are going with Universalism there, right?

No one goes to Hell and the chaff is not people as the Bible intends but sin, or bad deeds? People all get as many chances as they need to make it to Heaven? Hence making Gods clear purpose for Hell, null?

But the biggest and best thing about it, is it explains away things in the Bible that people don't like and creates and "easier way". It does away with a part of the Bible that offends, gets others on board because now they can do as they wish and eventually get to Heaven... right? And does the same thing in the end as once saved, always saved and leads people down the easier wide path straight to the place in question here....right?

 

[hedrick]

do you believe God can annihilate the wicked?

Yes. There was a whole thread that looked at most of the passages describing hell. When you consider the OT background of the language, I think the most plausible understanding of those passages is destruction.

For specifics see the following thread http://www.christianforums.com/threads/annihilationism.7953299/. I don't have time to for a rerun, I'm afraid.

 

[Hillsage]

hell seems to be a popular subject -
lots of threads on it -
why is it so important for christians?

It's important for me because I believe man is "made in our/god's image" and therefore man will always strive to be "after our/god's likeness". And the 'likeness of God' which man pursues 'after' is influenced greatly upon the 'likeness' of God he is taught.

And being taught it is 'like God' to burn people alive for all eternity, was the very premise which 'Bloody Queen Mary' stood upon to tortuously burn people to death at the stake for disagreement with 'church doctrine'. Today we know many of them were Christian martyrs. Her justification for such barbarism basically stemmed from the belief that she was giving them a hell of good start for what God was going to do for eternity, anyway. That's a heart perverted by the teaching of what God is 'like'. And that heart attitude is a subliminal reality for anyone who believes that's what God is like. So it is the character malignment of the God I know and believe in, that makes it such an important doctrine, for me.

He tells us to always forgive....but He isn't going to???? That's hypocrisy. Either he is holding us to a higher 'likeness' than He Himself is, or as I believe, there's something wrong with what we've been taught.....for over a thousand years.

German theologian - Philip Schaff writes :
“In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria…Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown.”

(The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – Vol XII, Baker Book House, 1950, p. 96.)

 

[Kenny'sID]

He tells us to always forgive....but He isn't going to???? That's hypocrisy. Either he is holding us to a higher 'likeness' than He Himself is, or as I believe, there's something wrong with what we've been taught.....for over a thousand years.

Spin.

There is nothing wrong with what we've been taught. Of course God forgives, but if one doesn't accept Christ and do what he tells us we must do, no, he doesn't forgive, yet you leave that part out and depend on a bit of spin/missing facts to make your bogus point..

Why do you feel you have to resort to half truths/deception to push your belief, the belief that essentially allows everyone to drop their guard now, do as they wish, but still make it to heaven eventually?

Curious, Hill, is there and actual Church that teaches this?

 

[victorinus]

Before I comment further, I'm just learning about it here so forgive me if I'm wrong, but you are going with Universalism there, right?

no
-
I believe in the second death for those who do not pass the test