Eternal security a.k.a. perseverance of the saints

[Cassidy]

Thanks, Arbiter. And T1WG1



Sure. But honestly I don't see the merit in continuing further dialogue with you because it is not particularly edifying to either one of us. We may be brother and sister in Messiah and we would probably get along better in person, but I'm calling an end to this discussion between us.

Ok

 

[Child-of-Zion]

And child of Zion - I apologise again.

I appreciate this, Cassidy. As far as I'm concerned it never happened.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Twig, you're not presenting the full case here,..

Only those that do the will of GOD shall enter. That word "iniquity" is really translated "lawlessness" in the Greek, and would correspond to the rebellious life the person led rather than do the will of GOD for their lives.

You can be a churchgoer all your lives and still be out of the will of GOD, it is nothing new.

Not argument there. I don't see how that contradicts what I have been saying.

I do not believe in salvation by faith and works, but rather a salvation by a faith that works.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Ok

I'll still talk to you cassidy!

 

[ARBITER01]

You said "a hard word" ... I took that to mean the opposite of gentle. No worries friend. I certainly am not meaning to correct you. I only want to be an encouragement.

Blessings

Twig you're never a discouragement, you're doing just fine, and if I require correction, The Lord is quick to point things out to me when I do.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Good night everyone...I have to turn in.

grace and peace to all of you...my brothers and sister in the Lord

 

[Child-of-Zion]

Well I'm not sure to be honest on what the qualifiers are of literal and non-literal...I think the Holy Spirit can use Scripture to minister many different truths through the Scriptures.

I definitely agree there.

I think in this paticular passage, Jesus does qualify it with "I will tell them plainly"

Well, that may or may not be a direct Greek translation. I would be interested in seeing what the Greek has to say and how it can best be translated. As flawless and ingenius as our English language is... (no)... there are limitations when translating from another language into this one.

Since I tend to be more right-brained and creative by nature, I can take even something like 'I will tell them plainly' and interpret it in many different ways. And to think of the all-powerful infinite God communicating with us is like the government of China sending a representative to an amoeba colony in the United States, thousands of miles away and attempting conversation. Even if the amoebas can understand there is so much they cannot perceive or relate to, and they'd think about the interaction according to what they are able to comprehend.

 

[ARBITER01]

Not argument there. I don't see how that contradicts what I have been saying.

I do not believe in salvation by faith and works, but rather a salvation by a faith that works.

Well,.. the part that most people head to is the "I never knew you" as a point towards the people Christ talked to here as never being Christians, and that is not the case when they never did the will of GOD. They obviously were Christians in this case if GOD had a will for them to do.

Do I make sense here?

 

[JimB]

You can never fall from someplace you never were. To fall from grace (Gal. 5.4) requires that a person must first have been a partaker of the grace of God.

My background is Armenian (AOG) and so I have viewed the scriptures on this subject through the lens they gave me but my Baptist friends have modified that belief somewhat by helping me see that do not “lose” your salvation like you lose your car keys—Oops! Now where did I leave my eternal salvation? It is a matter of choice, not accident.

But I do believe that you can forfeit eternal life. God did not take away our freewill when we became a Christian (unless you can show me in the Word where He did). God will not take you to heaven kicking and screaming against your will. You can opt out of the kingdom anytime you choose—Charles Templeton did and so did Bart Ehrman and Dan Barker. I think this is called becoming “reprobate concerning the faith” (2 Tim. 3.8). To cavalierly wave this aside by saying, “Oh, then they must never have really been saved, after all” takes away all of Calvinism’s imagined “security”. If they thought they were saved but weren’t; how then does any of us know for sure we are saved? I am saved because I have chosen to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If I should choose to disbelieve (which remains my freewill), that is my choice. We are secure as long as we choose to be. If I am saved from treacherous waters by a lifesaver, I can choose to remain safe on shore or I can return to the treacherous waters I was once saved from and face the consequences of my foolishness. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire” (2 Peter 2.22).

~Jim

If you ask enough people you’ll find someone who will tell you to do what you are going to do anyway.​

 

[imperfectchristian]

You can never fall from someplace you never were. To fall from grace (Gal. 5.4) requires that a person must first have been a partaker of the grace of God.

My background is Armenian (AOG) and so I have viewed the scriptures on this subject through the lens they gave me but my Baptist friends have modified that belief somewhat by helping me see that do not “lose” your salvation like you lose your car keys—Oops! Now where did I leave my eternal salvation? It is a matter of choice, not accident.

But I do believe that you can forfeit eternal life. God did not take away our freewill when we became a Christian (unless you can show me in the Word where He did). God will not take you to heaven kicking and screaming against your will. You can opt out of the kingdom anytime you choose—Charles Templeton did and so did Bart Ehrman and Dan Barker. I think this is called becoming “reprobate concerning the faith” (2 Tim. 3.8). To cavalierly wave this aside by saying, “Oh, then they must never have really been saved, after all” takes away all of Calvinism’s imagined “security”. If they thought they were saved but weren’t; how then does any of us know for sure we are saved? I am saved because I have chosen to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If I should choose to disbelieve (which remains my freewill), that is my choice. We are secure as long as we choose to be. If I am saved from treacherous waters by a lifesaver, I can choose to remain safe on shore or I can return to the treacherous waters I was once saved from and face the consequences of my foolishness. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire” (2 Peter 2.22).

~Jim

If you ask enough people you’ll find someone who will tell you to do what you are going to do anyway.​

Someone I was speaking with recently told me how in another church he had led a muslim girl to the Lord in their youth group. She called her family back home in the Middle East. Her family sent an Imam to come talk her out of her profession of faith in Christ, but she stood firm. He returned and later one of her parents were murderd (maybe both...I can't remember) because of her profession in faith. At this she renounced her faith in Jesus, reverted to islam and moved back to the middle east. She had believed that Jesus would not allow her family to suffer. When he did not protect her family, she gave up her faith.

Matthew 13:20-21

20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

Now it could be argued that the stony ground Christian is in fact saved minus persecution or trial, but that raises a whole other set of complications. My biggest objection is why would God allow someone to live who had chosen Him, but He knew they were going to fall away when the trail came? If God is truly a loving God, wouldn't He allow a mercy killing in this instance? Surely it would not be argued that dying an early earthly death as opposed to eternal death would be the choice.

Is that God respecting His free will? Did God respect Paul's free will when he appeared to him, spoke to him and blinded him? Why would he do that for Paul and yet not do it for the rest of us, does He not love us just as much as He loved Paul? Did God respect Doubting Thomas' free will when He allowed him to put his finger through the nail scarred hands?
Why does doubting Thomas get the oppotunity to see and beleive when others do not?

Why was I born here in the U.S. and have heard the Gospel from a very young age, when someone else in a third world country will live their entire life without ever hearing the Gospel? If God loves everyone equally then why the disproportion? God chose what family I was born into...no man made that decision. Please...no analogies of mentally handicapped children. God is either all powerful or He is not and God chooses who will be born where and with what difficulties they will be born with or born into.

The truth is that our concept of God (especially in most of the Christian church) is one where God revolves around us. How does knowing God benefit me or us?

Most do not think in terms of being God's creation, existing for His purposes and His glory. We think socialistically about God many times...that we are entitled to certain rights and that God has to honor them as long as we abide by His rules. At least this is the impression I get from the majority of Christians.

The truth is however that we are God's creation and He can and does do anything He wants to with His creation and He does not ask our permission before He does it nor is He bound by any demensions. He is Lord of the Law, Lord of the sabbath and Lord of the promise.

Ultimately, it is God that chooses who will be forever with Him in heaven and who will not. He is the one who will decide, not us. If the proud man says God will never break me, does that mean God can or will never break Him...or the hurt and embittered man says that he hates God, does that mean God cannot choose to move in His life and embrace Him and reveal to Him an irresistable grace?

Exodus 33:19
And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


It was not based on Moses obedience, but on God that shows mercy.

Now some would say...yes but if we are willfully sinning then God will not choose us as objects of His mercy.

Hosea 3:1

1 The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes."

God chooses.

Romans 9:16
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

This is the promise of Christianity....that God chooses us and that His choice is not based on our desire, effort or ability to choose Him. We believe that God has chosen us. We accept that we have entered into His grace on faith not because we willed it to be so, but because He willed it to be so. Our belonging to God does not rest in our choosing God, but in Him choosing us.

1st John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Romans 11:29
29 ...God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Ephesians 2:6-10
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Maybe at the end of it all, God will eventually reconcile all creation to himself in one way or another for His own glory and purposes. The truth is we are not His counselors in the matter and our theological conclusions are like an infant trying to understand their loving mother's care.

It is enough that we simply trust that God through Jesus Christ chose us. All we can truly do is just say thank you Father and respond by the power of His grace in love to one another and in the sharing of the good news of the riches of His grace.

Romans 11:32-36
32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

[Child-of-Zion]

For the record, I have yet to see anyone respond to the Scriptures I've posted at the beginning of this thread.

Now it could be argued that the stony ground Christian is in fact saved minus persecution or trial, but that raises a whole other set of complications. My biggest objection is why would God allow someone to live who had chosen Him, but He knew they were going to fall away when the trail came? If God is truly a loving God, wouldn't He allow a mercy killing in this instance? Surely it would not be argued that dying an early earthly death as opposed to eternal death would be the choice.

If we make God in our own image, then and only then can we fully and accurately answer each of these questions you raise. The answers would be wrong, of course, because the questions are flawed in that they assume God can be trapped in the corner of human logic.

Why was I born here in the U.S. and have heard the Gospel from a very young age, when someone else in a third world country will live their entire life without ever hearing the Gospel? If God loves everyone equally then why the disproportion?

I'd be careful with this train of thought. To say that because some are born into certain circumstances while others are not then that must mean God does not love equally seems to be extremely presumptuous. Again, pitting finite human logic vs. an INfinite all-powerful God is precisely what Paul talks about in Romans 9. It goes both ways here. Just as we cannot presume to know the mind of God fully, nor can we say He loves you, you, you and you but not you because you're not elected. For God so loved the elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that whomever He has sovereignly chose through no choice of their own will never perish...?

--Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."-- John 6:28-29

God chose what family I was born into...no man made that decision. Please...no analogies of mentally handicapped children. God is either all powerful or He is not and God chooses who will be born where and with what difficulties they will be born with or born into.

Yes He chooses where we are born but it's a stretch to go from that to 'God chooses my salvation with no choice of my own'. Repeatedly Scripture does not support that. I recommend that you read this story if you haven't already; http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7300062

When an unreached tribe of Alaskan Native Americans turned their backs on Shamanism--and not before--, God raised up a prophet to give them a means to follow the true God. This is but one story of undoubtedly many others like it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=33&verse=19&version=31&context=verse

Exodus 33:19
And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


It was not based on Moses obedience, but on God that shows mercy.

Yet this passage is silent on why God chooses one person and not the other. Look at Noah. Noah was righteous and found favor in God's eyes. Notice how God did not choose an unrighteous wicked man and his family instead of Noah to save.

Now some would say...yes but if we are willfully sinning then God will not choose us as objects of His mercy.

Hosea 3:1

1 The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes."

God chooses.

That was the Old Covenant, based on the law. One cannot live a life of willful sin and enter Heaven. Hebrews 10:26-27 talks about this.

--For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.--

Romans 9:16
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

This is the promise of Christianity....that God chooses us and that His choice is not based on our desire, effort or ability to choose Him. We believe that God has chosen us. We accept that we have entered into His grace on faith not because we willed it to be so, but because He willed it to be so. Our belonging to God does not rest in our choosing God, but in Him choosing us.

Again, one must take the Bible in its entirety. The verses highlighting those who lost their salvation do not and cannot contradict with this one since the Word is infallible. In the Old Testament even the chosen Israelites had to work out their salvation and follow the law. Just because they were chosen does not mean they were automatically headed for eternal life.
From Luke 16:

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Abraham calls this man a son, and his brothers had the Law, which means this man was a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But he did not live righteously and follow the Law and sacrifices for sin like he should have. Yes he was a Jew but he still had to do his part. Obviously he did not so he ended up in Hell.

Romans 11:29
29 ...God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

There is nothing in this passage referring to salvation. This is about the Jews and their significance in the world. Did Jews who rejected their Messiah keep their salvation?

And just a few verses earlier;
Romans 11:
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

There are conditions to salvation. Will one continue in the love and mercy of God or reject it?

This post is long enough already. I'm waiting to see someone respond to the verses I mentioned.

 

[lismore]

I'm sorry, but this is not what Scripture says in the verses I've mentioned.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[Child-of-Zion]

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

I responded to this on page 3.

 

[imperfectchristian]

For the record, I have yet to see anyone respond to the Scriptures I've posted at the beginning of this thread.

Let me also say for the record that I am merely sharing my thoughts on the matter. I was not trying to debate the subject, just sharing my POV.

If we make God in our own image, then and only then can we fully and accurately answer each of these questions you raise. The answers would be wrong, of course, because the questions are flawed in that they assume God can be trapped in the corner of human logic.

Then how will we ever come to any conclusions concerning God? That is the answer that people could give to anything where they wanted to give a carte blanc justification for their personal perception of God.
If you will remember in the OT, Abraham questioned God's judgement and God did not seem to mind.

I'd be careful with this train of thought. To say that because some are born into certain circumstances while others are not then that must mean God does not love equally seems to be extremely presumptuous. Again, pitting finite human logic vs. an INfinite all-powerful God is precisely what Paul talks about in Romans 9. It goes both ways here. Just as we cannot presume to know the mind of God fully, nor can we say He loves you, you, you and you but not you because you're not elected. For God so loved the elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that whomever He has sovereignly chose through no choice of their own will never perish...?

This is an incorrect understanding of the doctrine of double predestination.

One could argue that all Biblical doctrine is presumption...heck faith itself is presumption.

We are presuming that the Bible is historically accurate (We do not know it to be fact...the evidence certainly supports the case, but it is still something we have to except on faith, because...bottom line...we were not there.)

The point I am getting at is that we all presume about God at some level and that I am perfectly comfortable with my level of presumption.

--Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."-- John 6:28-29


Yes He chooses where we are born but it's a stretch to go from that to 'God chooses my salvation with no choice of my own'. Repeatedly Scripture does not support that. I recommend that you read this story if you haven't already; http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7300062

With all due respect...it is your interpretation of Scripture and understanding of God that does not support what I am presenting. That does not automatically mean that my conclusions are false.

When an unreached tribe of Alaskan Native Americans turned their backs on Shamanism--and not before--, God raised up a prophet to give them a means to follow the true God. This is but one story of undoubtedly many others like it.

Assumption. God might do one thing one way and another time do something another way. What I have noticed about God is that He refuses to be pigion holed.

Yet this passage is silent on why God chooses one person and not the other. Look at Noah. Noah was righteous and found favor in God's eyes. Notice how God did not choose an unrighteous wicked man and his family instead of Noah to save.

What made Noah righteous? What made Abraham righteous, or Samson or Sarah, or David, ....look at the Halmark of faith in Hebrews. It clearly defines that it was not their righteousness that God found favor with.

Did their faith originate in themselves or was even their faith a gift from God? I think the honest answer to this is "I don't know." I tend to think that it originates from God. Am I absolutely convinced of that...well no. That is just the way it makes sense to me.

That was the Old Covenant, based on the law. One cannot live a life of willful sin and enter Heaven. Hebrews 10:26-27 talks about this.

--For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.--

You missed the point and this passage you have quoted is a whole other subject.

Again, one must take the Bible in its entirety. The verses highlighting those who lost their salvation do not and cannot contradict with this one since the Word is infallible. In the Old Testament even the chosen Israelites had to work out their salvation and follow the law. Just because they were chosen does not mean they were automatically headed for eternal life.

How can you be sure the Word of God is infallible since man penned the Bible and (according to you) man has free will that God will not violate?

From Luke 16:
Abraham calls this man a son, and his brothers had the Law, which means this man was a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But he did not live righteously and follow the Law and sacrifices for sin like he should have. Yes he was a Jew but he still had to do his part. Obviously he did not so he ended up in Hell.

Romans 4:7

7 "Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

There is nothing in this passage referring to salvation. This is about the Jews and their significance in the world. Did Jews who rejected their Messiah keep their salvation?

And just a few verses earlier;
Romans 11:
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

There are conditions to salvation. Will one continue in the love and mercy of God or reject it?

This post is long enough already. I'm waiting to see someone respond to the verses I mentioned.

O.K. let's look at the context...

Romans 11:26-32

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I do not have to time further the discussion right now...we are getting ready to go out of town for thanksgiving. I will try to write more later.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Is it Biblical? Can one lose their salvation or once you're saved you're always saved?


1. --"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name."-- Revelation 3:10-12


emphasis mine.
'hold fast'. 'test'. 'he who overcomes'. 'kept the word of perseverance'. Notice what the Scripture does not say: 'don't worry about holding fast. You are already saved so just sit back until you reach Heaven.'

It also doesn't say 'Because God kept the perseverance for you because He took away your freedom to choose after getting saved.'

John's writings are more simplistic than Paul's. He never gets into the distingushing between faith and works. Neither does James or Peter. Your explanation of predestination is not a correct representation of double predestination.

2. --""But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."-- Matthew 10:33
Here Jesus gives no stipulations, no terms, no conditions about who denies Him. Whoever--- be they professing Christians or not.

This is given all throughout Scripture. The unpardonable sin is actually centered around the context of denying God by calling that which is evil good.

3. --"You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."-- Matthew 10:22


Not 'the one who has been chosen'. The one who has endured. This means there will be those who do not endure and therefore lose their salvation.

Paul says He labored all the more, but that it was not Him but the power of God's grace living through Him. The Bible also clearly says that Christians have been predestined to be Sons of God from the foundation of the world and that we are God's elect.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

4. --“ At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.”—Matthew 24:10
Fall away from what? For those who say that those people were never saved, the Bible says otherwise. You cannot fall away from something you never truly believed in.

You can fall away from something you never truly believed and received though.

5. --"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."-- Matthew 24:13

Again there’s that phrase talking about enduring to the end.

Whose power will enable you to endure? Your own?

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

Paul always gave the credit back to God.

6. --"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."-- Luke 8:13

They believe for a while... i.e. at that point they are saved.

They believe their own version of God. If you marry a girl that says she loves you when you are a millionare, yet she leaves you when all your money is gone, did she ever really love you?

7. --"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."-- John 8:51

Jesus Himself is not saying that once you say a prayer then you're done. We must do our part to keep with what we are held accountable. Again, nothing saying here that it is impossible to lose your salvation but quite the opposite. Why not just say 'anyone whom the Father chooses will never see death'?

His word is to believe in the one who was sent. This is not possible without the revealing power of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 16:16-17
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

8. --“"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”—
a‧bide  /əˈbaɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-bahyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, a‧bode or a‧bid‧ed, a‧bid‧ing.
–verb (used without object)
1.
to remain; continue; stay: Abide with me.

2.
to have one's abode; dwell; reside: to abide in a small Scottish village.

3.
to continue in a particular condition, attitude, relationship, etc.; last.
–verb (used with object)
4.
to put up with; tolerate; stand: I can't abide dishonesty!

5.
to endure, sustain, or withstand without yielding or submitting: to abide a vigorous onslaught.

6.
to wait for; await: to abide the coming of the Lord.
This would appear to be a warning to stand firm and not fall away, to not throw away your salvation.

9. --“Then when he arrived and witnessed the grace of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all with resolute heart to remain true to the Lord”—Acts 11:23
Barnabus was sent to encourage the believers at the new church at Antioch, and he rejoiced because he saw that they were saved.
Why did Barnabus encourage them to remain faithful to the Lord? They’re going to Heaven now no matter what, right?
Right??
Here again in Acts is another example of believers encouraging one another to remain in the faith, not to simply get on board and enjoy the ride to Heaven;
10. --“ strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, " Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."—Acts 14:22

11. --“You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”—Romans 11:19-23
Here Paul writes about the Jews’ rejecting of Christ and how His bride became went from Jews only to anyone who chooses to believe.
This is perhaps some of the strongest warnings, written to believers, about the dangers of falling away from the faith and throwing away their salvation.

12. --“ Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.”—1 Corinthians 10:12

Why? How can one fall if one has no choice in their own salvation?
13. --Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
"by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."-- 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (look up commentaries on all verses?)
14. --“ Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.”—Galatians 6:7-9
That last part of the passage is key. Our salvation is conditional; we have to agree to hold onto it until the end and not give up simply because life becomes too difficult.

Agreed...yet it is not we who hold onto it, but the Christ life inside of us that holds onto it.

15. --"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel..."-- Ephesians 1:6

Here the Apostle Paul is speaking to Jewish believers who were clearly falling away. 'deserting' implies a choice to walk away. How can a believer desert the faith if they are predestined, chosen by God with no choice of their own?

Again the Bible clearly states that believers are predestined. My answer is that they were never truly saved. I would encourage each person to follow their own conviction in the matter.

1. Ephesians 1:5
   he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
   
2. Ephesians 1:11
   In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

 

[Child-of-Zion]

This could go on... and on... and on..... and at the end the day nobody's mind is changed.

 

[Cassidy]

No because some of us know that it's not about us...that it's all about God and our salvation is up to him. If it was up to us we'd all die! None of us would ever succeed. Thankfully it's not up to us because we will never live up to his expectations...but Christ has and that's why I put all my faith in his finished work on the cross and not myself!

It's so humbling when you know that it's not about you.

 

[imperfectchristian]

No because some of us know that it's not about us...that it's all about God and our salvation is up to him. If it was up to us we'd all die! None of us would ever succeed. Thankfully it's not up to us because we will never live up to his expectations...but Christ has and that's why I put all my faith in his finished work on the cross and not myself!

It's so humbling when you know that it's not about you.

I do agree with you Cassidy and this is the way I look at it as well...however each of our relationship's with the Lord are unique (some more different than others) I think the best thing we can do is encourage each other in the faith...even if it is slightly (or not so slightly) different than our own. Afterall, trusting and believing in Jesus as Saviour is what is truly important and we are all brothers and sisters in God's family.

 

[Child-of-Zion]

If it was up to us we'd all die

It's not all resting on our shoulders. If I ever conveyed this then that wasn't my intention. Without the Holy Spirit living within me, I am nothing. I have nothing. I can do nothing. But I have the choice whether or not to quench the Spirit's work in my life, to expel Him completely. According to Scripture I can drift away, shipwreck my faith, abandon the faith, and have my name removed from the book of life. This is not in any way taking credit for my salvation. Nothing I could ever do could be good enough to atone for my sins. That's why we need the cross in the first place.
And that's where I leave this.

 

[romans6and6]

It's not all resting on our shoulders. If I ever conveyed this then that wasn't my intention. Without the Holy Spirit living within me, I am nothing. I have nothing. I can do nothing. But I have the choice whether or not to quench the Spirit's work in my life, to expel Him completely. According to Scripture I can drift away, shipwreck my faith, abandon the faith, and have my name removed from the book of life. This is not in any way taking credit for my salvation. Nothing I could ever do could be good enough to atone for my sins. That's why we need the cross in the first place.
And that's where I leave this.

Those are some excellent posts Child of Zion.

You gave some Scriptures that cannot be disputed. Just like John 3:16 can not be properly interpreted to mean that Christ did not die for the WHOLE world, and therefore an exegesis of John 3:16 is avoided by the Calvinist, so it is with many of the warnings in the Scriptures about losing one’s salvation.

What kind of a twisted mind would believe that Jesus died only for the elect, and that God did not love the WHOLE world at Calvary? What kind of a twisted mind would believe that God chose only a handful of people to be saved while sending billions of people to Hell? What kind of a twisted mind would adamantly insist that God predestines to salvation, but then denies the very purpose of that salvation - freedom from sin in the here and now! And what kind of a twisted mind would believe that one can commit all types of the works of the flesh, including incest, and still be saved?

Calvinism is nothing more that Gnosticism, Augustinianism, and Roman Catholicism, dressed up in Protestantism.

Lets get back to the Holy Scriptures, and what Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John said, instead of what some theologian said.

John Calvin, in his “Institutes of Christian Religion” bragged about how his doctrines were taken from Augustine. He quoted Augustine hundreds of times in his “Institutes of Christian Religion.” Too bad he did not have such an affinity for the Apostle Paul.