Eternal security a.k.a. perseverance of the saints

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Those are some excellent posts Child of Zion.

You gave some Scriptures that cannot be disputed. Just like John 3:16 can not be properly interpreted to mean that Christ did not die for the WHOLE world, and therefore an exegesis of John 3:16 is avoided by the Calvinist, so it is with many of the warnings in the Scriptures about losing one’s salvation.

What kind of a twisted mind would believe that Jesus died only for the elect, and that God did not love the WHOLE world at Calvary? What kind of a twisted mind would believe that God chose only a handful of people to be saved while sending billions of people to Hell? What kind of a twisted mind would adamantly insist that God predestines to salvation, but then denies the very purpose of that salvation - freedom from sin in the here and now! And what kind of a twisted mind would believe that one can commit all types of the works of the flesh, including incest, and still be saved?

Calvinism is nothing more that Gnosticism, Augustinianism, and Roman Catholicism, dressed up in Protestantism.

Lets get back to the Holy Scriptures, and what Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John said, instead of what some theologian said.

John Calvin, in his “Institutes of Christian Religion” bragged about how his doctrines were taken from Augustine. He quoted Augustine hundreds of times in his “Institutes of Christian Religion.” Too bad he did not have such an affinity for the Apostle Paul.

You have misrepresented an entire group of Christians (including me) by giving a false representation of what those of us who have calvinistic leanings believe. Thanks for the name calling bit BTW.

If I were to go with my intuition, I would be inclined to believe free will. It is precisely because of Scripture that I am inclined to believe differently.

Why don't you read through the Scriptures I posted on predestination so you can better understand that it is not a twisted mind that believes in predestination and God choosing, but that it is in fact a Biblical concept.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7313000
 
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romans6and6

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You have misrepresented an entire group of Christians (including me) by giving a false representation of what those of us who have calvinistic leanings believe. Thanks for the name calling bit BTW.

If I were to go with my intuition, I would be inclined to believe free will. It is precisely because of Scripture that I am inclined to believe differently.

Why don't you read through the Scriptures I posted on predestination so you can better understand that it is not a twisted mind that believes in predestination and God choosing, but that it is in fact a Biblical concept.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7313000

I was actually trying to be nice in describing the biggest forgery against the gospel of Jesus Christ in Protestantism called Calvinism.

It was John Calvin and many of the Reformers that had the "twisted mind" which propagated what is known as Calvinism. Those who believe in their doctrines, stemming from Gnosticism and Augustine and the Dark Age Roman Catholic theologians, are only the ill-informed and in some cases the brainwashed.

After all, as they say, if you repeat a lie enough times and over a long period of time, sooner or later there will be many people who believe it, no matter how credible or non-credible the story is. Because Calvinism became the popular thought of the Reformation, many of the seminaries leaned this way and taught the five points, as well as the belief that a child of God was still a sinner. And thus even today, we have many study helps, commentaries, seminaries, Bible colleges, etc. that are infected by these thoughts.

Any Scriptures that may "show" Augustinian/Calvinistic predestination are only taken out of context, because the Scriptures do not teach this.

And as I have said, Calvinist are so adamant that God "predestines" only the "elect" to salvation, that they miss it on the very purpose of that salvation - that we should be holy and righteous before Him, freed from sin to serve Him in righteousness and true holiness.

And they not only miss it on the true purpose of predestination, but even deny and fight against the fact that a child of God can be free from sin in the here and now.

And yet we are supposed to respect Calvinism as Christian thought?
 
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Any Scriptures that may "show" Augustinian/Calvinistic predestination are only taken out of context, because the Scriptures do not teach this.
Well you have certainly apparently conviced yourself of this or someone else has convinced you. You are a far cry from having convinced me of anything. You are welcome to try however I must say...starting off by insulting a person's perspective on Scripture is not a proven way of convincing anyone of anything. You imply that you did not insult me personally, however you did insult the calvinistic doctrine itself as being the product of "twisted minds." That is a rude judgement (at the very least) to make against anyone who is your brother or sister in Christ. Is this what the Holy Spirit teaches us to do?

If you wish to actually share some of your Scriptural insight with me you can start by satisfactorily explaining these passages in Romans and how I have supposedly taken themit out of context.


As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:13-26

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. Romans 11:5-8
 
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romans6and6

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Well you have certainly apparently conviced yourself of this or someone else has convinced you. You are a far cry from having convinced me of anything. You are welcome to try however I must say...starting off by insulting a person's perspective on Scripture is not a proven way of convincing anyone of anything. You imply that you did not insult me personally, however you did insult the calvinistic doctrine itself as being the product of "twisted minds." That is a rude judgement (at the very least) to make against anyone who is your brother or sister in Christ. Is this what the Holy Spirit teaches us to do?

If you wish to actually share some of your Scriptural insight with me you can start by satisfactorily explaining these passages in Romans and how I have supposedly taken themit out of context.


As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:13-26

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. Romans 11:5-8


It would be a stretch to suggest from these Scriptures that God decreed billions to be damned and a few to be saved before the foundation of the world, as Calvinism teaches. These Scriptures are dealing mainly with national Israel.

Paul also says about national Israel:

2 Cor 3:15-16
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Jesus Christ, just days before His crucifixion, was lamenting over the hardness and unwillingness to believe of the people of Jerusalem:

Matt 23:37-38
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

God, throughout the history of Israel, “wanted” them to be that special people before Him, but they had a history of backsliding and of killing the messengers of God, and of hardening their hearts in unbelief.

Man is fitted for destruction because of his unbelief, and not because of an eternal decree.

If man repents (and turns to the Lord, 2 Corinth. 3:16) and believes the gospel, he then becomes a vessel unto honor and fit for the master’s use.
 
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pinetree

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Ya know what I always notice in the osas type of conversations..

Whenever folks show scriptures that show people fall away..they have free will,,those that abandoned the faith and so on…

I always crane my head back and think..Well why the heck would they want to fall away anyway??…:scratch:

John6:68
Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Seems also like those who are weak,realize that God is keeping them,and therefore they seem to be on the side of spiritual security,because they are trusting not in themselves,so their security is in Him..His power..…

These are the verses that God has given to me personally..

1Corinthians 1:8
He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude1, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ:


1Jude 24

To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—

1Peter 4-5
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

 
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I had a several hour discussion this evening on this very topic with someone I greatly admire and respect.

I have been back and forth on this issue for a while. There are aspects of both sides that are undeniable to me.

My conclusion at the end of the conversation this evening was that ...yes there has to be something done on the part of the individual that is potentially outside the scope of God's will to effect.

My beef with the popular concept of free will is the idea that we keep ourselves to God (ex. through continual repentance). This concept is heavy laiden with legalism.

(NOTE: True repentance is wonderful, but I do not believe it results from the lost person reconciling themself to God, but instead is a result of a life already reconciled to God by sincere faith in God's redeeming love...in other words...we are not reconciled because we repent...we are reconciled because we believe in and recieve reconciliation through Jesus Christ which produces a desire for a life that is pleasing to God)

Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age.


1 John 3:2-3
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.


If we say salvation through faith alone...then some will decry..."easy believism"

The Scriptures caution repeatedly not to be arrogant, proud or presumptous in our status with God as believers as if we had and maintain some special hand in it (when all we did was receieve from God). Paul clearly defines that salvation is a gift by grace. Now if we do something for our salvation (on our own behalf) then it is no longer by grace.

...see how easy it is to slip into the concept of a works based relationship with God?

So then if there is an element of free will (which Scripture does clearly indicate that there is), how is it defined?

My conclusion is that our free will ultimately determines one thing in our relationship with God...that we either truly accept, believe and receive God's love or we reject it.

The only requirement of a gift is that you receive it. A person can in fact choose not to receive a gift. It's not contingent on how good we are or how bad we aren't, (unless you are dealing with santa clause).

Those who truly receive God's free gift of grace and love, will in turn respond with their life to God.(kind of like the force of gravity)

In this same train of thought then...it is possible then to loose one's salvation, but in order to do so, a person would have to totally abandon the desire to embrace God's grace and love...hence...completely abandoning the light to hide in the darkness to protect one's evil deeds from exposure.

My major point is that as Christians we live lives totally dependent upon God's grace.

So then the concept of Calvinism where God lives and moves in the hearts and lives of believers by grace through faith (and no work or effort of our own) is one I firmly subscribe to, yet I agree that we, by our free will do in fact choose to accept, believe and recieve His grace in our lives through faith...that is to say that we welcome God's love and acceptance in our lives.

To put it in a simple way...we have dirty houses, God will come inside and clean them up...all we have to do is open the door and let Him in. The only way we are lost is if we refuse to let Him in because we love our dirty house too much to allow Him to come inside and clean it up for us.
 
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romans6and6

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Yes, God keeps us, and yes salvation is a free gift from God, but one still has to meet the conditions to be saved and then abide in Christ in order to remain saved.

And there is nothing legalistic or “works” in the above statement. One has to repent and believe the gospel, and then abide and remain in Him.

One of my favorite books in the Bible, besides Romans and 1John, is Jude. Jude, after describing the false prophets, turns his attention to the child of God in verse 20 and says:
“But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
KEEP YOUSELVES in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”

Then, two verses later he says:
“Now unto Him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.”

Yes salvation is from Him and all glory and honor goes to Him who is able to save us and keep us. This by the way, is something that Calvinism and John Calvin does not believe, however. They believe that a child of God is still a sinner and still falls throughout their Christian experience. As Calvin said, concupiscence (a longing and lusting for that which is forbidden) "never dies in us" and is "ever producing new fruits." This may concur with Gnosticism, Augustinianism, and Roman Catholicism, but it does not concur with the Scriptures, the gospel of Jesus Christ, nor with Jesus, John, Jude, and with the Apostle Paul, who refers to concupiscence as a work of the flesh, and says that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. It looks like John Calvin should have been reading and quoting Paul more than Augustine.

As with predestination, Calvinism misses out on the greater truth when it comes to eternal security. God is able to keep us from falling and to present us faultless before Him. Calvinism teaches eternal security, yet they believe that a child of God is still a sinner and still in and secure in his sins, instead of freed from sin as the gospel teaches.

How do we “keep our selves in the love of God,” as Jude says. We abide in him. We remain in Him. We keep our faith and trust totally in Him and in what He accomplished in the Cross for us. We go on to know Him. We fellowship in His Word and in His presence. We grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

We continue in the faith.
“…yet now hath he reconciled. In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreprovable in His sight.
IF ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel…” 1:21-23)

We stand fast.
“Stand fast in the liberty where Christ has MADE US FREE, and be not entangled again by the yoke of bondage.” (Galatians 5:1)
Here Paul was specifically dealing with those Christian Jews who were going back to the law and to circumcision to try to please God. Paul told them in verse 4:
“Christ has become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.”

We hold fast.
“But Christ is a son over His own house, whose son are we; IF WE HOLD FAST the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm until the end.” (Hebrews 3:6)

We stand in the grace of God.
“By whom [Jesus Christ] also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” (Romans 5:2)
“I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.” (1Peter 5:12)


Every time that “believing” in its various forms is used in the Scripture as pertaining to eternal life, it is used in the present tense. Believing does not stop when we made a “confession of faith” 20 years ago. It is a constant believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and abiding in Christ that will ultimately save and keep us until the end.

Hence the constant warnings and exhortations in the Scriptures about holding fast, standing fast, keeping one’s self in the love of God, standing in the grace of God, and continuing in the faith, be not deceived, etc.
 
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lismore

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I always crane my head back and think..Well why the heck would they want to fall away anyway??…:scratch:

John6:68
Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Good point. There isnt much in the world that brings long-term benefit. Why leave God for that?
 
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C

Cassidy

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“But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
KEEP YOUSELVES in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”

And yet the bible says that nothing can separate us from the love of God.

The answer is simple...Christians WILL be kept by God who has changed them into a new creation who WANT to be kept and will perservere to that end.
 
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