Eternal security a.k.a. perseverance of the saints

[Child-of-Zion]

Is it Biblical? Can one lose their salvation or once you're saved you're always saved?


1. --"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name."-- Revelation 3:10-12

emphasis mine.
'hold fast'. 'test'. 'he who overcomes'. 'kept the word of perseverance'. Notice what the Scripture does not say: 'don't worry about holding fast. You are already saved so just sit back until you reach Heaven.'

It also doesn't say 'Because God kept the perseverance for you because He took away your freedom to choose after getting saved.'

2. --""But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."-- Matthew 10:33
Here Jesus gives no stipulations, no terms, no conditions about who denies Him. Whoever--- be they professing Christians or not.


3. --"You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."-- Matthew 10:22

Not 'the one who has been chosen'. The one who has endured. This means there will be those who do not endure and therefore lose their salvation.

4. --“ At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.”—Matthew 24:10
Fall away from what? For those who say that those people were never saved, the Bible says otherwise. You cannot fall away from something you never truly believed in.

5. --"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."-- Matthew 24:13

Again there’s that phrase talking about enduring to the end.
6. --"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."-- Luke 8:13

They believe for a while... i.e. at that point they are saved.


7. --"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."-- John 8:51

Jesus Himself is not saying that once you say a prayer then you're done. We must do our part to keep with what we are held accountable. Again, nothing saying here that it is impossible to lose your salvation but quite the opposite. Why not just say 'anyone whom the Father chooses will never see death'?

8. --“"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”—
a‧bide  /əˈbaɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-bahyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, a‧bode or a‧bid‧ed, a‧bid‧ing.
–verb (used without object)
1.
to remain; continue; stay: Abide with me.

2.
to have one's abode; dwell; reside: to abide in a small Scottish village.

3.
to continue in a particular condition, attitude, relationship, etc.; last.
–verb (used with object)
4.
to put up with; tolerate; stand: I can't abide dishonesty!

5.
to endure, sustain, or withstand without yielding or submitting: to abide a vigorous onslaught.

6.
to wait for; await: to abide the coming of the Lord.
This would appear to be a warning to stand firm and not fall away, to not throw away your salvation.

9. --“Then when he arrived and witnessed the grace of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all with resolute heart to remain true to the Lord”—Acts 11:23
Barnabus was sent to encourage the believers at the new church at Antioch, and he rejoiced because he saw that they were saved.
Why did Barnabus encourage them to remain faithful to the Lord? They’re going to Heaven now no matter what, right?
Right??
Here again in Acts is another example of believers encouraging one another to remain in the faith, not to simply get on board and enjoy the ride to Heaven;
10. --“ strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, " Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."—Acts 14:22

11. --“You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”—Romans 11:19-23
Here Paul writes about the Jews’ rejecting of Christ and how His bride became went from Jews only to anyone who chooses to believe.
This is perhaps some of the strongest warnings, written to believers, about the dangers of falling away from the faith and throwing away their salvation.

12. --“ Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.”—1 Corinthians 10:12

Why? How can one fall if one has no choice in their own salvation?
13. --Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
"by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."-- 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (look up commentaries on all verses?)
14. --“ Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.”—Galatians 6:7-9
That last part of the passage is key. Our salvation is conditional; we have to agree to hold onto it until the end and not give up simply because life becomes too difficult.
15. --"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel..."-- Ephesians 1:6

Here the Apostle Paul is speaking to Jewish believers who were clearly falling away. 'deserting' implies a choice to walk away. How can a believer desert the faith if they are predestined, chosen by God with no choice of their own?


16. --“For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Therefore do not be partakers with them”—Ephesians 5:5-7

The Apostle Paul is writing to believers at Ephesus. Why would he warn them to not do as unbelievers do unless it was possible to fall away from the faith?
Are there any warnings in the Bible against something that is not possible?


17. --“ yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”—Colossians 1:22-23

18. --"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."-- 2 Thessalonians 2:15 (the first 14 verses are about the end times and how people will be deceived)

19. --“keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.”—1 Timothy 1:19

People were falling away even back in Paul's time. One cannot be shipwrecked unless you are out at sea first. One cannot fall away from the faith unless you were a believer first.

20. --"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..."-- 1 Timothy 4:1

How can they fall away if God has predestined them by no choice of their own?

21. --"Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."-- 1 Timothy 4:16

There are conditions we must meet to ensure our salvation is not lost. These are God's words, through Paul.
22. --"Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach;
for some have already turned aside to follow Satan."-- 1 Timothy 5:14-15

Turned aside from what? These letters Paul writes are to the church. He's talking about believers who have turned away and lost their salvation.

23. --“For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.”—1 Timothy 6:10
‘Turned aside’ from what?

24. --"If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;"-- 2 Timothy 2:12

This is to believers. The 'we' includes believers. To endure, you must have a choice. If you never had the chance to turn back then it's not really endurance.


25. --“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.”—2 Timothy 4:4

26. --“But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.”—2 Timothy 17-18
Hymanaeus was mentioned in 1 Timothy 1:20 as one who had gone astray after knowing the truth.
How can you go astray from something you’ve never had? These men had the truth. These men were saved at one point in time.

27. --“For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?”—Hebrews 2:1-3
This is another warning not to drift away, along with a reminder that the angels who were with God were punished when they rebelled after knowing the truth. This is written to believers.


28. --“Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,”—Hebrews 3:12-14
We are saved if we do not give up. Here again, a warning to not fall away. Why all the warnings unless it is indeed possible to fall away after accepting Christ? Why warn against something that could never happen?

29. --“How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" And again, "The Lord will judge His people."—Hebrews 10:29-30


‘By which he was sanctified…’ this passage is referring to somebody who was saved but spat in His face afterwards. Look here 9 chapters later:
30. --“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.”—Hebrews 19:26-27
It says a choice can be made after you are saved; the choice to remain in your sins and forget about His forgiveness or to endure to the end

 

[Child-of-Zion]

31. --"Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."--James 1:12

Who receives a crown of life? Those who love Him and prove it by their actions, by their choices. Those who are faithful to the end. Not those who ever said a prayer and maybe were even baptized. There can be a difference between the two.


One of the passages most explicitly refuting eternal security is found in the book James.
32. --“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”—James 5:19-20
This is written to believers. There must have been people falling away from the faith or else there would not be all of these examples and warnings.

33. --“forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;” 2 Peter 2:15 —
referring to false teachers and false prophets; including those who once knew the Lord.

34. --“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
It has happened to them according to the true proverb, " A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."—2 Peter 2:20-22

35. --“ As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.”—1 John 2:24

There are a lot of 'if then' statements regarding salvation, and a lot about enduring to the end. Why?


36. --“'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.”—Revelation 2:10-11

Not 'he who was predestined through no choice of his own will not be hurt by the second death'.


37. --"Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent."-- Revelation 2:5


Fallen from what? This is written to believers.



38. --"He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."-- Revelation 3:5

'He who overcomes'. 'I will not erase his name from the book of life'. How can your name be in the book of life unless you are already on your way to Heaven?
39. --“ Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.”—Revelation 14:12
To keep something you must first receive it and proceed to hang on (to endure, persevere as dozens of verses talk about).
40. --"and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."-- Revelation 22:19
This passage warns against doing what would cause your share of Heaven to be taken away. Having it taken away is not possible unless you had it to begin with.

The Bible says you can:
· drift away (Heb. 2:1)
· wander away from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)
· wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)
· stop believing and fall away in time of testing (Lk. 8:13)
· turn away from the faith (Mt. 24:10)
· have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19)
· leave the straight way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15)
· be like a branch that is thrown away and withers (Jn. 15:6)
· turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim. 5:15)
· depart from the faith (1 Tim. 4:1)
· turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Tim. 4:4)
· acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Heb. 3:12)
· become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)
· not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)
· have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city because of your disobedience (Rev. 22:19)



I do not believe we should in fear about whether or not we are actually saved. The fruits of the Spirit should be evident enough in your life, along with your relationship with Christ, to comfort you in this regard. While none of us is perfect, we are all being transformed from glory to glory if we are His.

 

[Cassidy]

You know how I feel about it! Those who heed the word perservere, and they heed the word because they are sons of God and it's God who made them that way. He doesn't have to force us or take away our free will for we are sons of God and because that's who we are then we will heed the warnings and perservere till the end.

 

[Child-of-Zion]

Those who heed the word perservere, and they heed the word because they are sons of God and it's God who made them that way. He doesn't have to force us or take away our free will for we are sons of God and because that's who we are then we will heed the warnings and perservere till the end.

But this does not explain the following verses I mentioned;

15. --"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel..."-- Ephesians 1:6

19. --“keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.”—1 Timothy 1:19

20. --"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..."-- 1 Timothy 4:1
There is nothing in these verses to suggest that it's just a warning about the dangers of a choice no believer will make. And in the next example it mentions the names of men who have fallen away.
26. --“But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.”—2 Timothy 17-18

In Acts 6:5, Nicolas was one of the 7 men “of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom”. This was when the early Christian church was growing large enough to form divisions and problems, and 7 Christian men from among the believers were chosen to help organizational matters such as the distribution of food.
Now may I direct your attention to the book of Revelation.
--“'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.”—Revelation 2:6
This was written to the church at Ephesus which had left their first love (verse 4).
A few verses later:
--“So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.”—Revelation 2:15
This was to the church in Perganum. In verse 14 the Lord tells them that they are committing acts of sexual immorality.
History tells us that this is the same Nicolas who was one of the 7 among the brethren.
“The Nicolaitans are the followers of that Nicholas who was one of the seven first ordained to the deaconate by the apostles. The Nicolaitans lead lives of unrestrained indulgence.”—quote from Irenaeus from around 180 A.D. He was one of the early church leaders. (taken from page 473 of A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, edited by David W. Bercot)

 

[lismore]

Is it Biblical? Can one lose their salvation or once you're saved you're always saved?

Hello

I believe that when a person is saved they are dead to the world and the world is dead to them. SOmeone who is saved cannot go back to deadness, or 'loose their salvation'.

However, not everyone sitting in Christian meetings are saved. Such people could indeed 'fall away'.

 

[Child-of-Zion]

Hello

hola

 

[Cassidy]

All those who 'fall away' prove two things....#1 that they are not saved.....#2 and never were!

 

[Child-of-Zion]

All those who 'fall away' prove two things....#1 that they are not saved.....#2 and never were!

I'm sorry, but this is not what Scripture says in the verses I've mentioned.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm sorry, but this is not what Scripture says in the verses I've mentioned.

You're quite correct, but that doesn't stop her from constantly repeating what she believes even though scripture would prove her wrong.

She doesn't place scripture first and foremost as a guidebook in her walk with Christ like most Christians do, she places her personal beliefs above it instead. There is already this problem when dealing with her in other threads in the debate section over very particular subjects like this.

 

[Cassidy]

You're quite correct, but that doesn't stop her from constantly repeating what she believes even though scripture would prove her wrong.

She doesn't place scripture first and foremost as a guidebook in her walk with Christ like most Christians do, she places her personal beliefs above it instead. There is already this problem when dealing with her in other threads in the debate section over very particular subjects like this.

Oh you're nasty

 

[Faulty]

Oh you're nasty

Don't worry about it. It seems those among us who criticize others for finding fault with the 'established' teachers, are quick to criticize the teaching from others they concider not as established.

C'est La Vie

 

[ARBITER01]

Don't worry about it. It seems those among us who criticize others for finding fault with the 'established' teachers, are quick to criticize the teaching from others they concider not as established.

C'est La Vie

It wasn't criticism, it was just the truth being told. She was constantly relying upon personal beliefs instead of supplying a clear scriptural stance for her assertions.

It is an undisciplined stance out of a Christian, and more akin to the baby Christian instead of the more mature Christian who has learned how the scriptures provide a safe spot when revealed by The Holy Spirit.

She can be upset, but anyone can go read in the demonic debate threads where her references were her personal beliefs only, not scripture. She leans on what she thinks and believes only, and that is not rightly dividing the word, nor is it even the word in the first place.

 

[imperfectchristian]

We would need to take each verse in context and there are a whole lot of verses you posted.

If your conviction is that you keep your salvation by your own effort then that is between you and God....I would not discourage your sincere faith in the Lord even though I don't see it that way.

In my opinion...the seed either fell on good ground or it didn't....these fiery testings and trials will manifest the faith that is truly genuine and burn away that which is not.

If a person's faith in God is not genuine, then it does not matter how good they are or how hard they try to please God.

Phillipians 3:4-21

4 If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.


7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
17 Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. 18 For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

 

[Cassidy]

I supplied scripture you just refused to see it because of your experience. You even said you'd believe the same as me if it wasn't for your experience. But it's very nasty to bring something from one thread onto another thread like that.

FaultySurplus - you know you could have helped me with that scripture I've been looking for about those who go out from us prove that they were not of us. I can't find the stupid thing!!!! LOL

 

[imperfectchristian]

You're quite correct, but that doesn't stop her from constantly repeating what she believes even though scripture would prove her wrong.

She doesn't place scripture first and foremost as a guidebook in her walk with Christ like most Christians do, she places her personal beliefs above it instead. There is already this problem when dealing with her in other threads in the debate section over very particular subjects like this.

We should love and encourage each other in the faith.

 

[Child-of-Zion]

Man, I'm feeling the love on this thread. Everybody take a deep breath and give everyone else a big HUG! Okay I'll start.

k I've just given you all a hug. Hugs are nice. They make me happy.

If your conviction is that you keep your salvation by your own effort then that is between you and God....I would not discourage your sincere faith in the Lord even though I don't see it that way.

I never said that salvation is through my own effort. Without the Holy Spirit I can do nothing. Without the Holy Spirit giving me life I am nothing. What I'm saying is that we can refuse the work of the Spirit in our lives and walk away. And yes, context is key. But I do not see anything in what these verses say that would lead me to believe that one can take them out of context. What else can 'falling away' or 'shipwrecking your faith' or 'going astray' mean?

 

[Cassidy]

25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe.(AN) The works that I do(AO) in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but(AP) you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27(AQ) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28(AR) I give them eternal life, and(AS) they will never perish, and(AT) no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father,(AU) who has given them to me,[a](AV) is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of(AW) the Father’s hand. 30(AX) I and the Father are one."

6"I have manifested Thy name unto the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world. Thine they were, and Thou gavest them to Me, and they have kept Thy Word.


7Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.

8For I have given unto them the Words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.

9I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom Thou hast given Me, for they are Thine.

10And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name. Those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Notice he said 'son' not 'sons' - means he only lost one of them...who was that one that he lost?

I FOUND IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us. But they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Jude 1:24
Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy

 

[imperfectchristian]

I never said that salvation is through my own effort. Without the Holy Spirit I can do nothing. Without the Holy Spirit giving me life I am nothing. What I'm saying is that we can refuse the work of the Spirit in our lives and walk away. And yes, context is key. But I do not see anything in what these verses say that would lead me to believe that one can take them out of context. What else can 'falling away' or 'shipwrecking your faith' or 'going astray' mean?

Falling away and shipwrecking your faith or going astray means losing your faith IMO. People who lose their faith are those who are the rocky ground Christians. It springs up quickly, but when the trials come, it quickly dies away because it has no root. The question is were they ever saved in the first place???

I would say no. Salvation many times in Scripture is refered to as a future event.

 

[ARBITER01]

I supplied scripture you just refused to see it because of your experience. You even said you'd believe the same as me if it wasn't for your experience. But it's very nasty to bring something from one thread onto another thread like that.

FaultySurplus - you know you could have helped me with that scripture I've been looking for about those who go out from us prove that they were not of us. I can't find the stupid thing!!!! LOL

Experience and scripture MUST go together, as I also said in that other thread. The person without the experience to back their scripture beliefs and convictions will be more susceptible to incorrect teachings and suggestions from wrong teachings and teachers. It is not an uncommon stance that many Christian wrongly make in their growth.

For instance in this thread, the person has rightly supplied a manifold array of scripture that agrees with his doctrinal stance, but you just turned your nose up and said something like, "well you know my stance on this topic,blah, blah, blah" or something to the effect, basically blowing off anything that he may have presented here, while again running on personal beliefs above scripture.

It is just an observation over your actions and deeds.

I personally try not to enter topics anymore that either don't interest me or I have no true Holy Spirit revelation and experience to take a stand with in scripture, just so I'm not relying upon personal beliefs. It is a slippery slope and a gamble no matter what when we do that. We are to grow more disciplined against such practices.

 

[imperfectchristian]

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us. But they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Jude 1:24
Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy

I love those passages!