Ephesians 1: 1-12

[PrincetonGuy]

There is no truth at all in THIS post!

The history of the interpretation of Old and New Testaments thoroughly documents that the so-called “Doctrines of Grace” (really a dishonest euphemism for “Calvinism”) are not found in any literature prior to the 16th century, and we have very numerous documents written prior to the 16th century that teach the opposing view—firmly grounded on the Scriptures.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

What do we learn here? 1) No one is righteous. 2) No one seeks after God. 3) No one understands God. 4) Destruction, deception, and a lack of fear before God are our most essential qualities. This is a picture of the total depravity of mankind.

What we have here is a series of quotations of hyperbolic statements in the Old Testament that are expressly contradicted through out the Old Testament which speaks of both righteous and unrighteous people. Even in the very darkest times, there was a remnant that was faithful to God. Moreover, there is no mention in the Bible of anyone who was said to be totally depraved. The doctrine of “total depravity” is an absolutely false 16th century doctrine!

 

[PrincetonGuy]

So your contention is that Augustine didn't teach sovereign election?

No, of course not!

How about Thomas Aquinas?

No, of course not!

Again you conveniently ignore the truth of historical fact.

There is a very great and critically important difference between the doctrine of sovereign election as taught in the Bible and by Bible scholars, and the extremely wrong and harmful doctrine of election taught by Calvin.

Please read the Bible, and the works by Augustine, Aquinas, and Calvin.

 

[GrenBH]

Upon hearing the gospel, unbelievers who are being drawn by the Father at that point in time may or may not believe

Read the verses again:

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Christ recognizes the faithlessness of the Pharisees in verse 64, and then explains it by declaring "This is why I told you... no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father." If what you said is correct, then Christ's statement makes no sense. "It was granted you to believe in me, but you do not believe, that is why I told you no one can come to me unless the Father grants it." It is a nonsensical explanation. Clearly, the text is explaining that it was not granted them to come to the Father, and that is the reason for their unbelief. Verse 37 on down also states that "all that the Father" grants to the Son come to the Son, and none of these are lost. Also, verse 45 declares that all those who have "heard and learned" of the Father inevitably come to the Son. If what you say is correct, then the Pharisees "heard and learned" of the Father, that is why they came to Christ, but they still refused to believe; but then the entire passage is explaining how the Pharisees didn't believe nor understand what Christ was saying when He declared it was necessary to eat His flesh. These people were physically in front of the Son, but they had not "heard and learned" of the Father. That is why they remained unbelievers.

Your argument, therefore, directly contradicts both the words and context of these passages.

In John 17:9, John distinguishes between all people everywhere (the world), and those persons whom the Father has given to Jesus,

9. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;

Which fully supports the plain reading of John 6-- that all those whom the Father gives to the Son belong to God absolutely. They do not merely "come," and then depart from Christ. To "come" is clearly to kneel before Christ and accept Him as Messiah, "for they are [God's]." These people belong to God, are set aside and consecrated by Him, and Christ promises to raise all of them up and lose none of them (John 6:37-39).

Moreover, there is no suggestion of any kind in Rom. 9 that God predetermined who would be saved, and who would not

What Paul is actually doing is explaining why not all the Jews were saved, despite in Romans chapter 8 declaring that "all those called are justified, and all those justified and glorified." The fact that Paul is speaking of membership in the body of Christ is clear by the fact that Paul immediately begins his discussion of the "Children of the Promise and the Children of the Flesh," then parallels this with the example of Jacob and Esau, and then concludes with a discussion of the Vessels of mercy (Christians who inherit heaven) and the vessels of wrath (people like Pharaoh who will suffer in perdition). Paul's argument, therefore, is that the reason why not all Israel is Israel is because only some of them were the elect vessels of mercy.

 

[GrenBH]

This what I was pointing out with logic fallacies. You present either a is true or b is true. That is not true there is also c or could be d. So you took because I said they loved evil and assumed i meant there must be something righteous in me which love righteousness, but I never said that. In fact i don't have to have any righteousness, to simply not love evil is not righteous, i had no idea what righteous was before God. But i had a Heart which God told right from wrong as Paul says the gentiles before the law new right and wrong. So there are other options. i can be indifferent, i can flirt with evil i can flirt with good. i can accept love, which is what I did. My heart was soft. the good ground is a soft heart, why do you think Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are those who suffer? that is why because there heart becomes soft and becomes good soil for God's seed.

You literally denied what I said then went ahead and affirmed it with the last sentence: "that is why because there heart becomes soft and becomes good soil for God's seed." IOW, your heart is not hardened by sin, but is capable of "seeking and understanding" God. But this is not what the scripture teaches.

 

[GrenBH]

What we have here is a series of quotations of hyperbolic statements in the Old Testament that are expressly contradicted through out the Old Testament which speaks of both righteous and unrighteous people.

What do you mean by "righteous" and "unrighteous" people? If you mean people who are actually, in and of themselves righteous, your error is easily disprovable by pointing out that Paul clearly called himself a wicked man, even after conversion (Rom 7:24). Paul was righteous only according to faith, and that is true for all believers, no matter the age, because all fall short of the glory of God. And this faith is only possible to possess "by the holy ghost," so that there is no one, in their natural condition, who can ever choose or believe in God. All are born "dead" in sin and as "children of wrath."

Even in the very darkest times, there was a remnant that was faithful to God. Moreover, there is no mention in the Bible of anyone who was said to be totally depraved.

Who were that faithful? This faithful is and always has consisted of those who have had their hearts converted by the Father, and have been given a new heart, given the law, and made to walk according to God's good purpose (Deu_30:6; Eze 36:27)

The doctrine of “total depravity” is an absolutely false 16th century doctrine!

Well, it's not a "false doctrine," and it dates long before the 16th century.

 

[Bluelion]

You literally denied what I said then went ahead and affirmed it with the last sentence: "that is why because there heart becomes soft and becomes good soil for God's seed." IOW, your heart is not hardened by sin, but is capable of "seeking and understanding" God. But this is not what the scripture teaches.

dude what is wrong with you? what are you even saying.

No where does scripture teach against a person soften hard. In fact scripture teach for this. King Nebuchadnezzar had such pride and harden his heart to God that God struck his mind and he lost it for 7 years, then His heart was soften and he prayed to God and was healed it is believed after that he became saved. God most certainly does soften the hearts of people.

and yet again you are not actually making an argument, you say you rejected what i said and affirmed it again you did not show where I so called rejected what you said or where my words confirm your point. We can not debate like this, as Of yet I still don't know what your greater point is you have supposedly been getting to?

 

[GrenBH]

Please read the Bible, and the works by Augustine, Aquinas, and Calvin.

In fact, I became a Calvinist in the first place by reading Augustine! You have no clue what you're talking about:

"... the human will does not obtain grace by freedom, but obtains freedom by grace; when the feeling of delight has been imparted through. the same grace, the human will is formed to endure; it is strengthened with unconquerable fortitude; controlled by grace, it never will perish, but, if grace forsake it, it will straightway fall; by the Lord's free mercy it is converted to good, and once converted it perseveres in good; the direction of the human will toward good, and after direction its continuation in good, depend solely upon God's will, not upon any merit of man. Thus there is left to man such free will, if we please so to call it, as he elsewhere describes: that except through grace the will can neither be converted to God nor abide in God; and whatever it can do it is able to do only through grace. "(Augustine, Aurelius. Augustine's Writings on Grace and Free WIll (Kindle Locations 45-46). Monergism Books. Kindle Edition.)

“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)

"We know that God's grace is not given to all men. To those to whom it is given it is given neither according to the merits of works, nor according to the merits of the will, but by free grace. To those to whom it is not given we know that it is because of God's righteous judgment that it is not given." (Augustine, August. ad Bonifac. Ep. 106)

“But that world which God is in Christ reconciling unto Himself, which is saved by Christ, and has all its sins freely pardoned by Christ, has been chosen out of the world that is hostile, condemned, and defiled. For out of that mass, which has all perished in Adam, are formed the vessels of mercy, whereof that world of reconciliation is composed, that is hated by the world which belongeth to the vessels of wrath that are formed out of the same mass and fitted to destruction. Finally, after saying, “If ye were of the world, the world would love its own,” He immediately added, “But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” And so these men were themselves also of that world, and, that they might no longer be of it, were chosen out of it, through no merit of their own, for no good works of theirs had preceded; and not by nature, which through free-will had become totally corrupted at its source: but gratuitously, that is, of actual grace. For He who chose the world out of the world, effected for Himself, instead of finding, what He should choose: for “there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace,” he adds, “then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.”” (Tractates on the Gospel of John, 15:17-19)

 

[GrenBH]

and yet again you are not actually making an argument, you say you rejected what i said and affirmed it again you did not show where I so called rejected what you said or where my words confirm your point. We can not debate like this, as Of yet I still don't know what your greater point is you have supposedly been getting to?

It would probably help if you addressed all those verses I provided which you ignored!

 

[Bluelion]

What do you mean by "righteous" and "unrighteous" people? If you mean people who are actually, in and of themselves righteous, your error is easily disprovable by pointing out that Paul clearly called himself a wicked man, even after conversion (Rom 7:24). Paul was righteous only according to faith, and that is true for all believers, no matter the age, because all fall short of the glory of God. And this faith is only possible to possess "by the holy ghost," so that there is no one, in their natural condition, who can ever choose or believe in God.



Who were that faithful? This faithful is and always has consisted of those who have had their hearts converted by the Father, and have been given a new heart, given the law, and made to walk according to God's good purpose (Deu_30:6; Eze 36:27)


Well, it's not a "false doctrine," and it dates long before the 16th century.

and hear i see your point you are trying to preach Calvinist doctrine. You are saying God converts a person heart before they come to Christ which i showed with Romans is clearly untrue. Paul says it faith in Christ, meaning after we beleiev we are convert not before.

 

[GrenBH]

and hear i see your point you are trying to preach Calvinist doctrine. You are saying God converts a person heart before they come to Christ which i showed with Romans is clearly untrue. Paul says it faith in Christ, meaning after we beleiev we are convert not before.

If you showed it anywhere, it must be invisible to everyone. Maybe you forgot to press submit and you closed the page?

 

[Bluelion]

and yet you preach total depravity yet preach a person heart is convert before Jesus and that allows them to come to Jesus. You are contradicting your self. either man is total lost, and must come to Christ and then be convert, or a person is not total lost and Christ already has changed their heart so they can come to Jesus. You can not have it both way. You are preaching righteousness before being saved and then say no total depravity. I am sorry but it seems you don't even understand the doctrine which you preach.

 

[Bluelion]

If you showed it anywhere, it must be invisible to everyone. Maybe you forgot to press submit and you closed the page?

Are you drinking? I am serious, post 31 i quoted Romans, It is on the page before this.

 

[GrenBH]

and yet you preach total depravity yet preach a person heart is convert before Jesus and that allows them to come to Jesus.

I think what you need to do here is really examine the scriptures I have provided, instead of trying to convolute what I have told you. If you actually want to consider God granting a "heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear," (Deu 29:4) somehow contradictory to the doctrine of total depravity, I can't really help you.

 

[Bluelion]

I think what you need to do here is really examine the scriptures I have provided, instead of trying to convolute what I have told you. If you actually want to consider God granting a "heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear," (Deu 29:4) somehow contradictory to the doctrine of total depravity, I can't really help you.

first you are only addressing the parts of my arguments you want to and not the whole thing. I said you contradicted yourself. You said a person is totally depraved yet has regenerated hearts. How can a person be both. You say only the elite come to God then is now your claim the elite are righteous after all that is a regenerated heart. Seems your in a pickle. I would like an answer to my full arrangement before i rebut yours.

 

[GrenBH]

first you are only addressing the parts of my arguments you want to and not the whole thing. I said you contradicted yourself. You said a person is totally depraved yet has regenerated hearts. How can a person be both. You say only the elite come to God then is now your claim the elite are righteous after all that is a regenerated heart. Seems your in a pickle. I would like an answer to my full arrangement before i rebut yours.

Here is the definition of what I mean when I say "total depravity":

Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html

This is absolutely confirmed out of the verses you presented to me, even though you imagine they somehow refuted me. The unbeliever-- in his depraved state-- is unable to seek or understand God. This must be rectified before conversion, which occurs at the moment of regeneration when God grants faith. I never once said anything about someone being both "dead" in sin, with a stony heart, while simultaneously regenerated! Nor did I call the Elect a "righteous elite." They are sinners who have been regenerated by the work of God. Nor do I claim that after conversion they are 'totally depraved' in the sense that they are incapable of faith, but the effects of Original Sin are such that after conversion, sin still dwells and fights within our bodies for supremacy, making it impossible for us to be righteous according to the law.

 

[Bluelion]

ok well don't debate if you can not argue your position. You state your right and want me to do the research why? You have to state why and back up your claims i can say God is the one true God to any one, and then say read the bible. That is not an argument. You want God to argue your position for you for what you believe, Infact, that is not what God says, but you want me to read 40 chapters to learn your position. I am not doing the work for you it is your job to present your own arugement.

Deu i am not sure of total depravity, which btw I totally believe in. The issue i have for with you and your group. is you say only the eilte come to God that God at the start set aside these people and said your going to heaven, and see this group here your going to hell. God is willing all be saved he did not pick a group for heaven and a group for hell any one can chose God. any heart can become soft. the simple true is some people love evil not because as I said at first God cursed them this way but because that is who they are, but they could still come to God. Calvinist believe there is no free will i believe in free will anyone can chose, so people try apples and hate them and some try them and like them, did God make them this way or did they make them self this way.

 

[Bluelion]

Here is the definition of what I mean when I say "total depravity":

Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html

This is absolutely confirmed out of the verses you presented to me, even though you imagine they somehow refuted me. The unbeliever-- in his depraved state-- is unable to seek or understand God. This must be rectified before conversion, which occurs at the moment of regeneration when God grants faith. I never once said anything about someone being both "dead" in sin, with a stony heart, while simultaneously regenerated! Nor did I call the Elect a "righteous elite." They are sinners who have been regenerated by the work of God. Nor do I claim that after conversion they are 'totally depraved' in the sense that they are incapable of faith, but the effects of Original Sin are such that after conversion, sin still dwells and fights within our bodies for supremacy, making it impossible for us to be righteous according to the law.

see above post i was writing when you posted this. i know what it means I have studied carefully as I am majoring in Bible and theology.

 

[GrenBH]

You want God to argue your position for you for what you believe, Infact, that is not what God says, but you want me to read 40 chapters to learn your position. I am not doing the work for you it is your job to present your own arugement.

I've clearly presented plenty of arguments from the scripture throughout the thread. You've not engaged with it. I have an example of this:

God is willing all be saved he did not pick a group for heaven and a group for hell any one can chose God.

I have literally already responded to this, proved my position beyond any reasonable doubt using both the scriptures and Jewish writings from the Talmud, and have repeated my position multiple times! Then I have given a large number of scriptures demonstrating that conversion comes from the hand of God. No one cares to deal with it though.

any heart can become soft. the simple true is some people love evil not because as I said at first God cursed them this way

Are you referring to original sin? 1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[Bluelion]

I got to thank you I had forgotten what points of Calvinist i disagreed with these are the 3. A person must believe in all 5 to be Calvinist.
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).