Ephesians 1: 1-12

[mikedsjr]

If we take what Scripture says.....oh wait.....if we add our color vision to the Scriptures...

I have much respect for those who wrote the study notes for the ESV Study Bible and here is my comment based on the notes. Princetonguy is correct that the passage is one long sentence. But we differ on what Scripture means. I believe God told us, all Christians, what He wants us to know by his servant's hands. I'm not a Calvinist as I once was, but I haven't left too far from this belief this subject is about. Man has free will. In light of original sin man will never ever freely choose God. Is there a free choice by man happening in our salvation? Yes. But it is nothing without God's work in saving us. And in this area lies when is faith occurring. When God gives it to us, or when chooses? Calvinist and Lutherans, where I closely stand, both take the stand it's with Ephesians 1 expressing what God does. Princetonguy, if I'm correct and I could be wrong, is saying this is a one sided text and missing man's POV.

 

[GrenBH]

Christians must be EXTREMELY CAREFUL about misrepresenting God and His purposes, particularly when it comes to the salvation of souls. Let's assume that "ALL" means "SOME" (which is ridiculous, but then Five Point Calvinism is ridiculous).

This is merely denial. It's a fact that the "all" or even phrases like "all the men of the world" are historically limited by the Jews and can have a wide variety of meanings, with "every single person" being the most rarest of the meanings! What you're really doing is just ignoring how scripture uses language, rather than letting scripture interpret scripture.

We still have all the WHOSOEVERs of Scripture scattered throughout the Bible, in particular John 3:16. And "whosoever" means "whosoever" regardless of anything else. It is equivalent to "anyone and everyone", and is reflected in the parable of the Wedding Feast, where anyone and everyone was invited to come.

The "whosoever" doesn't help you however. It would have to mean that anyone, anywhere, and at any time, has the power to choose Christ. But this contradicts the following verse and all those like it:

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

If a person cannot believe but by the holy ghost, there is no such thing as your free ability to choose. At best, you can argue that a person receives that ability only at the moment the Holy Spirit begins His work. But other verses presented in this thread make clear that not everyone receives the work of God to come to Christ.

The true significance of "whosoever" is that it destroys the bigotry of the Jews at that time that only the Jews had the blessings and promises of God. Instead, Christ declares that the Israel of God will encompass both Jews and Gentiles.

Bluelion writes:

Logical fallacies again same thing present two options and say its either this or that, its not a valid argument.

You wrote this in reply to my pointing out that you hold there is a qualitative difference between the unbeliever and the believer. Clearly you do believe that the person who chooses Christ has a level of righteousness in them that allows them to have faith in Christ. If you declare that faith came of yourself, then you cannot confess with Paul that there is nothing that causes you to differ from another. You submitted where others do not. You can claim that the act of faith is not meritorious, but you do not escape your self-righteousness as long as you believe that you have innate goodness that others lack.

Princeton Guy writes:

In John 17:9, John distinguishes between all people everywhere (the world), and those persons whom the Father has given to Jesus.

The point is to refute the absolute literalism of some posters here. They would make the world mean everyone, always having the same meaning. Thus the "world" that God loves would be the same "world" that Christ doesn't pray for.

 

[twin1954]

Ephesians 1-12 is one of the most misunderstood passages in the Bible, primarily because most translations of the Bible hack into pieces one of the most beautiful sentences in the Bible—Ephesians 1:3-14

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:
Eph 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
Eph 1:10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,
Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
Eph 1:12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:
Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, - in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory. (ASV)

In the Greek New Testament, Ephesians 1:3-14 is one sentence with one main clause and a multitude of subordinate clause, and is so translated in the ASV. The one and only main clause in Eph. 1:3-14 is “Εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ,” Blessed (be) the God and Father (as is often the case in Koine Greek, the verb is implied but not given). Therefore, the entire passage is a doxology—a type of Eulogy. And like all eulogies, it presents only part of the story, completely leaving out man’s responsibility to God and our part in our election. For that part of the story, we need to read the doctrinal passages in the Bible.

God's sovereign election is probably the second most taught doctrine in the Scriptures, second only to the atonement of Christ. You take a convenient out by claiming it is only a doxology and then ignoring what it plainly teaches. Paul is addressing the reasons why he says that God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is blessed. The reasons are real and true and for you to ignore them in order to keep hold of your false doctrine is not an honest way to approach the Scriptures.

 

[twin1954]

"All" can, and does, and must stand alone. Otherwise we will make Scripture stand on its head. God does not mislead people or play semantic games.

Oh really! All are pink. Now tell me what I am talking about.

God does not mislead or play semantic games true, but the question of who the all is referring to in 2Pet. 3:9 is easily solved with a third grade English lesson. If Peter had meant all men then he could have, and would have, added the simple word men. You must read into and therefore twist the meaning of the passage with your interpretation.

 

[mikedsjr]

Job8, (don't take capitals words as yelling, but my way of emphasizing it from the app I'm using)

by the standard you place on "all" you will be required to place on ALL words of Scripture. Does 3:1 mean, "this is now...", like NOW. Or right now? Or now. Is it ALL NOWs? Is Peter writing at this very moment? When he said "you", does he mean YOU?

Do you see the issue with defining the word "all" to mean "all people" each time it's used? If someone says, "I love you all", it's context drives the word "all". In 1 Peter 2:2, does that mean Peter wants people to pray for every single person in power? Should you be staying up 3 hours making sure you have every single city, state and country leader in your prayer list?

All I'm saying is be careful with your statement.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

God's sovereign election is probably the second most taught doctrine in the Scriptures, second only to the atonement of Christ. You take a convenient out by claiming it is only a doxology and then ignoring what it plainly teaches. Paul is addressing the reasons why he says that God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is blessed. The reasons are real and true and for you to ignore them in order to keep hold of your false doctrine is not an honest way to approach the Scriptures.

The biblical doctrine of election is one of the most frequently taught doctrines in the Bible. Calvin’s extremely confused and unbiblical doctrine of election was not taught by anyone until the 16th century, and anyone who believes that they have seen it in the Bible is guilty of wishful thinking. Moreover, the biblical doctrine of election is NOT taught in Ephesians 3-14 or in any other doxology in the Bible because doxologies are just that— doxologies! They state truths, just like eulogies at funerals, but they leave out much more that they tell.

 

[Job8]

Oh really! All are pink. Now tell me what I am talking about.

God does not mislead or play semantic games true, but the question of who the all is referring to in 2Pet. 3:9 is easily solved with a third grade English lesson. If Peter had meant all men then he could have, and would have, added the simple word men. You must read into and therefore twist the meaning of the passage with your interpretation.

Peter meant all men, women, and children, and there are many passages which simply say "all" without adding the implied "men". When you couple that with all the "whosoevers", then there is NOT ONE IOTA OF DOUBT that God desires the salvation of ALL HUMANITY. Please note carefully (John 1:29):The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

God has declared that ALL MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN since Adam are sinners. Now John the Baptizer (by the power of the Holy Spirit) proclaims that the Lamb of God will take away the sin of THE WORLD. Can there be any doubt whatsoever regarding the sacrifice of Christ for all humanity and the offer of salvation to all humanity? Yet we still have Christians promoting the foolish notion that God chooses some for salvation and others for damnation. That's more than a foolish notion, but we'll leave it at that.

 

[GrenBH]

The biblical doctrine of election is one of the most frequently taught doctrines in the Bible. Calvin’s extremely confused and unbiblical doctrine of election was not taught by anyone until the 16th century,

Martin Luther and Augustine (353-430AD) would certainly refute you on that, and then the scripture itself, of course. I can also make an argument out of Ignatius (late 1st century died early 2nd century) and many other extra biblical Christian writings as well. Oh, and Luther wasn't even the first Augustinian monk to start preaching the Gospel of grace. There had been others, but they met bad ends at the hands of the Roman Catholics.

 

[Bluelion]

This is merely denial. It's a fact that the "all" or even phrases like "all the men of the world" are historically limited by the Jews and can have a wide variety of meanings, with "every single person" being the most rarest of the meanings! What you're really doing is just ignoring how scripture uses language, rather than letting scripture interpret scripture.



The "whosoever" doesn't help you however. It would have to mean that anyone, anywhere, and at any time, has the power to choose Christ. But this contradicts the following verse and all those like it:

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

If a person cannot believe but by the holy ghost, there is no such thing as your free ability to choose. At best, you can argue that a person receives that ability only at the moment the Holy Spirit begins His work. But other verses presented in this thread make clear that not everyone receives the work of God to come to Christ.

The true significance of "whosoever" is that it destroys the bigotry of the Jews at that time that only the Jews had the blessings and promises of God. Instead, Christ declares that the Israel of God will encompass both Jews and Gentiles.

Bluelion writes:

You wrote this in reply to my pointing out that you hold there is a qualitative difference between the unbeliever and the believer. Clearly you do believe that the person who chooses Christ has a level of righteousness in them that allows them to have faith in Christ. If you declare that faith came of yourself, then you cannot confess with Paul that there is nothing that causes you to differ from another. You submitted where others do not. You can claim that the act of faith is not meritorious, but you do not escape your self-righteousness as long as you believe that you have innate goodness that others lack.

Princeton Guy writes:

The point is to refute the absolute literalism of some posters here. They would make the world mean everyone, always having the same meaning. Thus the "world" that God loves would be the same "world" that Christ doesn't pray for.

God planted the seed. God put his hands out with the gift of salvation and I said yes. Jesus came when i asked, but He was always reaching to me. was there anything righteous in me no. Paul makes this very clear in His writing. But The Holy Spirit was not in me forcing me to do anything. I was able to choose God because I heard the Word of God, and that is the power of His word It can save souls. The Word is what makes a person able to accept God. Not the person, and not God forcing them, but God speaking to them in His word. Like if i say to a orphan come with me I will make you my son, he may come with me, as oppose to never hearing me he what? makes His own way to my house, no I bring Him I come to Him. What you suggest is that i put the child in my car and on the drive to my house ask if he would like to be my son. It does not work that way. God asked before i got in the car. I wanted God for my Father because i did not have one that I new really. I said yes. But some say no for many reason that God explains, in the parable of the seeds. Let listen to God explain why some people say no to Him.

Mat 13

“Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds. 4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them.5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow. 6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn’t have deep roots, they died. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants. 8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted! 9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”

10 His disciples came and asked him, “Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?”

11 He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. 12 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them

Mat 13:18

18 “Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds:19 The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.20 The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy.21 But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.22 The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God’s word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced.23 The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”

It is clear it is God's word which brings a soul to him, but even so not all who hear the word come and He just said why. No where does He say he changed a persons heart and then they could accept Him. But says Good soil they truly hear and understand. that is what God says the reason the accepted Him.

 

[GrenBH]

God planted the seed. God put his hands out with the gift of salvation and I said yes.

And yet, others said no. What is the difference? You pretty much said it yourself: you possess a righteousness that they lack, a willingness to believe, to lay down your sins and to repent. The word of God has a "power to save souls," but is powerless if-- as you hold-- the will of man goes not with it. But you must ignore a large amount of scripture, as you've done with 99 percent of my posts, in order to believe that you had any innate goodness in yourself in order to accomplish this. This is why I really hate these sorts of debates. They're not really "debates." They're philosophical discussions where the scripture isn't allowed to speak for itself.

It is clear it is God's word which brings a soul to him, but even so not all who hear the word come and He just said why. No where does He say he changed a persons heart and then they could accept Him. But says Good soil they truly hear and understand.

And why do they "hear" and "understand"? What makes them good soil?

Because God granted them a heart to believe and ears to hear, and caused them to walk in righteousness, while others He refused to give that very heart (Deu 29:1-4; Deu_2:30; Pro_20:12; Isa_6:9-10, Isa_63:17; Eze_36:26; Mat_13:11-15; Joh_8:43; Joh_12:38-40; Act_28:26-27; Rom_11:7-10; 2Co_3:15; Eph_4:18; 2Th_2:10-12; 2Ti_2:25; Jam_1:13-17; Pro_16:1, Pro_16:9, Pro_20:24; Pro 21:1; Pro_16:4; Romans 9). Because God granted them repentance, and is the author and creator of all faith (2 Tim 2:25; John 6:65; John 6:37; 1 Co 3:7; 1 Co 12:3). Granting it even to babies in the womb, and to all the Elect, because they are the Elect, and not for any merits in themselves (Act_13:48; Luke 1:44; see Romans 9 again).

It's clear that God calls us to repent, to believe, to submit to the Gospel, to persevere to the end; but it's also clear that God grants what He asks of us, that He gives us these gifts, because we are truly helpless without Him.

 

[Bluelion]

And yet, others said no. What is the difference? You pretty much said it yourself: you possess a righteousness that they lack, a willingness to believe, to lay down your sins and to repent. The word of God has a "power to save souls," but is powerless if-- as you hold-- the will of man goes not with it. But you must ignore a large amount of scripture, as you've done with 99 percent of my posts, in order to believe that you had any innate goodness in yourself in order to accomplish this. This is why I really hate these sorts of debates. They're not really "debates." They're philosophical discussions where the scripture isn't allowed to speak for itself.



And why do they "hear" and "understand"? What makes them good soil?

Because God granted them a heart to believe and ears to hear, and caused them to walk in righteousness, while others He refused to give that very heart (Deu 29:1-4; Deu_2:30; Pro_20:12; Isa_6:9-10, Isa_63:17; Eze_36:26; Mat_13:11-15; Joh_8:43; Joh_12:38-40; Act_28:26-27; Rom_11:7-10; 2Co_3:15; Eph_4:18; 2Th_2:10-12; 2Ti_2:25; Jam_1:13-17; Pro_16:1, Pro_16:9, Pro_20:24; Pro 21:1; Pro_16:4; Romans 9). Because God granted them repentance, and is the author and creator of all faith (2 Tim 2:25; John 6:65; John 6:37; 1 Co 3:7; 1 Co 12:3). Granting it even to babies in the womb, and to all the Elect, because they are the Elect, and not for any merits in themselves (Act_13:48; Luke 1:44; see Romans 9 again).

It's clear that God calls us to repent, to believe, to submit to the Gospel, to persevere to the end; but it's also clear that God grants what He asks of us, that He gives us these gifts, because we are truly helpless without Him.

You are actually preaching against God's word.

Hear Paul is talking about the law or works but it applies to this debate as well.

Rom 3
9 Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. 10 As the Scriptures say,

“No one is righteous—
not even one.
11 No one is truly wise;
no one is seeking God.
12 All have turned away;
all have become useless.
No one does good,
not a single one.”
13 “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave.
Their tongues are filled with lies.”
“Snake venom drips from their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “They rush to commit murder.
16 Destruction and misery always follow them.
17 They don’t know where to find peace.”
18 “They have no fear of God at all.”

19 Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. 20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.


So you see it is clear none are righteous without Christ, you claim a person has some righteousness in them not true none do, but some hear. Lets read the rest

21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God freely and graciously declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

29 After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. 30 There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. 31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

No where does it say that a person is righteous before Jesus. Paul is simply stating we can not boast that we earned salvation not that God changed our hearts before, and if that is what you claim God changed our hearts before, sure i can agree with that. God does soften our hearts to understand and hear Him, but that is far from being righteous.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Martin Luther and Augustine (353-430AD) would certainly refute you on that, and then the scripture itself, of course. I can also make an argument out of Ignatius (late 1st century died early 2nd century) and many other extra biblical Christian writings as well. Oh, and Luther wasn't even the first Augustinian monk to start preaching the Gospel of grace. There had been others, but they met bad ends at the hands of the Roman Catholics.

There is no truth at all in this post!

 

[GrenBH]

So you see it is clear none are righteous without Christ, you claim a person has some righteousness in them not true none do, but some hear. Lets read the rest

Ironically your verses entirely supports me; on top of that, you made no effort at all to consider the scriptures I provided.

 

[GrenBH]

There is no truth at all in this post!

There is no truth at all in THIS post!

 

[twin1954]

There is no truth at all in this post!

So your contention is that Augustine didn't teach sovereign election? How about Thomas Aquinas?

Again you conveniently ignore the truth of historical fact.

 

[Bluelion]

Ironically your verses entirely supports me; on top of that, you made no effort at all to consider the scriptures I provided.

nope did not even look at them, How does the verse support you you said a person has righteousness before Christ here it clearly states no person has that. Again you are not actually arguing a point but making accusation. To argue the point what i posted supports you you would need to say here this supports it because A and then B = C, but you did not say that you say they justify me but how? so you see you are not arguing anything. To argue something you need to show support for your claims, you make claims and do not so support. you quoted what 20 Bible verse like I am going to go through my Bible for 20 lines and read over 40 chapter to put in context when I already know your wrong. I posted the God's word, one chapter which shows you are wrong. That is simple a person has no righteousness before Christ that it is faith in Christ which gives us that righteousness. That is what the verse say, you have not disproved those verse or show how they say otherwise. You want to quote more verse at me, No, because the Bible does not contradict its self. So you must first show how the verse I posted possible say anything other than a person has no righteousness before Christ. If that is not what you are arguing if you admit a person is not righteous before Christ. Then we can address if God regenerates the heart before Faith? i would be happy to look at the verse which proves a heart is regenerated before Christ, No where does it say that in the Bible. But its does say as i quoted no one is righteous before faith in Christ. That is God's grace that He chose us even being full of sin and unrighteous and unworthy of Him. That is Grace.

 

[GrenBH]

nope did not even look at them, How does the verse support you you said a person has righteousness before Christ here it clearly states no person has that.

You have our arguments exactly backward. Remember what you wrote to me earlier: "God calls to all but only certain one answer the call, its not because God has cursed them that they can not hear Him, its that in there heart they love evil, that is there heart, if they went to heaven they would not be happy because they could not sin, and sin is what they love never the-less God calls to them."

This was in response to what is the difference between you, the convert, and the person who refuses to convert, and both of you, presumably, have the same benefits, the same pleading Holy Spirit, the same "chance" to convert. It follows that if the sinner rejects Christ because his heart loves evil, then the person who chooses Christ must love righteousness. But this must mean the individual has the light of truth that is innate to them, not imparted by some outside source, that the wicked person lacks. They are not altogether depraved. They are not dead in sin, though perhaps they are very sick. But they are able to see the light of goodness, and have some part of themselves that is able to humble themselves, seek God and understand God, and embrace the almighty ultimately. Now compare it to the text you showed me:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

What do we learn here? 1) No one is righteous. 2) No one seeks after God. 3) No one understands God. 4) Destruction, deception, and a lack of fear before God are our most essential qualities. This is a picture of the total depravity of mankind.

Your argument is entirely nonsensical and appears to be what we both agree with-- that by faith we receive the imputed righteousness of Christ and are thus made perfect. But you place a measure of goodness in mankind that I reject entirely. I agree with this scripture which plainly teaches that man is condemned, dead in sin, and entirely at war with God, until God grants them a heart to believe and ears to hear and eyes to see.

To argue something you need to show support for your claims...you quoted what 20 Bible verse like I am going to go through my Bible for 20 lines and read over 40 chapter

I also quoted other verses in this very thread, and you ignored them as well. I don't think the problem here is that you're too busy. And from your own words, we know the problem isn't that I'm supposedly not supporting my claims either.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

(ESV Joh 6:64-65)


Christ doesn't explain their unbelief as "you refused me." He explains their unbelief by plainly telling them, as he does all over this Gospel, that it was not granted them to believe.

No, Jesus explains that no one can COME TO HIM unless it is granted him by the Father.

Moreover,

John 6:43. Jesus answered them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
44. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.”

John 6:64. “But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.
65. And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Jesus says in v. 45, “Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.” No granting of belief is necessary.

Read all the verses where Christ explains that His sheep hear His voice, and that they (unbelievers) do not hear His voice because they are not His sheep, but are the children of the devil.

Upon hearing the gospel, unbelievers who are being drawn by the Father at that point in time may or may not believe—depending upon circumstances other than the drawing by the Father. The Father may choose to draw them a second time, or even more times, until they are convicted by the Holy Spirit of the truth of the gospel. Even so, some unbelievers may resist the call of God throughout their life and never believe the gospel.

Unbelievers hear the voice of Jesus, but because they do not know him. He is a stranger to them, and hearing the voice of a stranger, they are frightened and flee,

John 10:5. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."

Christ even prays at one point "not for the world," but for those the Father has given Him out of the world. These teachings are very plainly spoken.

In John 17:9, John distinguishes between all people everywhere (the world), and those persons whom the Father has given to Jesus,

9. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that callethIt was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

(Rom 9:6-16)

In Rom. 9:16-33, Paul is defending “the word of God”, arguing that it has not “failed”, and that God is sovereign and has the right to do as He pleases even if it does not seem fair to others. He also defends “the word of God” by pointing out it was not all of Abraham’s progeny who were blessed, but his progeny through Isaac, and by pointing to the case of Pharaoh whom God raised up for a particular purpose. There is no suggestion of any kind in Rom. 9 that what God did concerning Israel He will do concerning those who are saved by grace through faith. Moreover, there is no suggestion of any kind in Rom. 9 that God predetermined who would be saved, and who would not

Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians is addressed to a gentile church that had been confused by Jews and Judiazers teaching that the Jewish life begins at circumcision and is maintained by conforming to the Mosaic Law. He begins his epistle with a salutation in the standard form (vv. 1-2) followed immediately by a lengthy doxology (vv. 3-14). He then assures them that he is faithfully praying for them, and tells them what he is praying for them (vv 15-23). In chapter 2, he tells them that they were dead through the trespasses and sins in which they had been living, but now they have been “made alive.” He tells them that they had been “alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world,” but now they are “fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,” But—how was this possible, for they had not been circumcised? It was possible by grace through faith!

(All quotations from Scripture are from the RSV, 1971)

 

[Bluelion]

I don't believe we went through all that because you miss understood what I said. Well that is a lesson for me to listen more to spot the problem. The problem is not we disagree you assumed i meant a person was righteous, in fact that is not at all what I was saying. I said at the bottom of Romans I quoted that God soften the heard, we know this because he did the opposite to pharaoh by hardening his heart.

This what I was pointing out with logic fallacies. You present either a is true or b is true. That is not true there is also c or could be d. So you took because I said they loved evil and assumed i meant there must be something righteous in me which love righteousness, but I never said that. In fact i don't have to have any righteousness, to simply not love evil is not righteous, i had no idea what righteous was before God. But i had a Heart which God told right from wrong as Paul says the gentiles before the law new right and wrong. So there are other options. i can be indifferent, i can flirt with evil i can flirt with good. i can accept love, which is what I did. My heart was soft. the good ground is a soft heart, why do you think Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are those who suffer? that is why because there heart becomes soft and becomes good soil for God's seed.

 

[Bluelion]

You have our arguments exactly backward. Remember what you wrote to me earlier: "God calls to all but only certain one answer the call, its not because God has cursed them that they can not hear Him, its that in there heart they love evil, that is there heart, if they went to heaven they would not be happy because they could not sin, and sin is what they love never the-less God calls to them."

This was in response to what is the difference between you, the convert, and the person who refuses to convert, and both of you, presumably, have the same benefits, the same pleading Holy Spirit, the same "chance" to convert. It follows that if the sinner rejects Christ because his heart loves evil, then the person who chooses Christ must love righteousness. But this must mean the individual has the light of truth that is innate to them, not imparted by some outside source, that the wicked person lacks. They are not altogether depraved. They are not dead in sin, though perhaps they are very sick. But they are able to see the light of goodness, and have some part of themselves that is able to humble themselves, seek God and understand God, and embrace the almighty ultimately. Now compare it to the text you showed me:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

What do we learn here? 1) No one is righteous. 2) No one seeks after God. 3) No one understands God. 4) Destruction, deception, and a lack of fear before God are our most essential qualities. This is a picture of the total depravity of mankind.

Your argument is entirely nonsensical and appears to be what we both agree with-- that by faith we receive the imputed righteousness of Christ and are thus made perfect. But you place a measure of goodness in mankind that I reject entirely. I agree with this scripture which plainly teaches that man is condemned, dead in sin, and entirely at war with God, until God grants them a heart to believe and ears to hear and eyes to see.



I also quoted other verses in this very thread, and you ignored them as well. I don't think the problem here is that you're too busy. And from your own words, we know the problem isn't that I'm supposedly not supporting my claims either.

I don't believe we went through all that because you miss understood what I said. Well that is a lesson for me to listen more to spot the problem. The problem is not we disagree you assumed i meant a person was righteous, in fact that is not at all what I was saying. I said at the bottom of Romans I quoted that God soften the heard, we know this because he did the opposite to pharaoh by hardening his heart.

This what I was pointing out with logic fallacies. You present either a is true or b is true. That is not true there is also c or could be d. So you took because I said they loved evil and assumed i meant there must be something righteous in me which love righteousness, but I never said that. In fact i don't have to have any righteousness, to simply not love evil is not righteous, i had no idea what righteous was before God. But i had a Heart which God told right from wrong as Paul says the gentiles before the law new right and wrong. So there are other options. i can be indifferent, i can flirt with evil i can flirt with good. i can accept love, which is what I did. My heart was soft. the good ground is a soft heart, why do you think Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are those who suffer? that is why because there heart becomes soft and becomes good soil for God's seed.