Ephesians 1: 1-12

jomarc

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Our small group discussed this passage today. Our main focus was election (predestination). I have to say, that after studying this BEAUTIFUL passage it is hard to make an argument against election.

I was raised with nothing taught to me except the Arminian interpretation (Of course, I didn't realize this at the time...because I knew nothing else...and I didn't even know these words Arminian and Calvinism). But this passage seems to have me leaning toward the Calvinistic interpretation.

True, it doesn't seem fair that God would predestine someone to hell. But...what is the difference in that and creating someone that he knew would never choose to accept Christ.

Either way--Arminian or Calvinist--individuals were created by God that He KNEW would be destined for an eternity in hell.

But then, NONE OF US is God. Only GOD is GOD. And he calls the shots.

Our group will be meeting again next Wednesday, and I look forward to sharing some of your words of wisdom. [I know... John 3:16....but I have been told that this is the pathway the chosen must take as they are drawn toward Him].
 

Job8

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Our group will be meeting again next Wednesday, and I look forward to sharing some of your words of wisdom. [I know... John 3:16....but I have been told that this is the pathway the chosen must take as they are drawn toward Him].
Before you get carried away with Calvinistic notions (1) clear your mind, (2) read the passage very carefully, and (3) exegete the passage in the light of ALL SCRIPTURE.

1. Election and predestination are Bible truths.

2. Election is always according to foreknowledge.

3. Predestination is for this ultimate purpose: "TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON".

4. God offers salvation freely to whosoever will, and commands all men everywhere to repent because he is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. Which means that God will have ALL MEN to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
 
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miamited

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Hi jomarc,

Well, so that everyone is on the same page, here's what that passage says:

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

I absolutely agree that God predestined that those who would believe and love Him would receive His promise of eternal life. After all, that's the sum total of what the Scriptures are all about. Where my understanding differs from many others is the 'subject' of the word 'predestined'. Some believe that God 'predestined' that Bill and Joe and Beth and Sue would be saved. I believe that God 'predestined' that all those, anyone who will, believe God's testimony and choose to love and to serve Him would be saved. So, it's a matter of, does God mean in this passage that He chose certain individuals by name to be saved before they were ever born and before the foundations of the earth were set in place? Or, does God mean that He established or predestined before the foundations of the earth were set in place that anyone who was going to be born who would believe the testimony of His word and His Son and His Spirit as they lived their lives upon the earth, would be saved?

God absolutely 'predestined' before the foundations of the earth were established that He would send one who would be the Savior of all those who would believe, and a part of that 'predestination' was that for those who would, they would receive His promise of eternal life. That fact was predestined and established before God even stepped into this realm to create it.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Hi jomarc,

Well, so that everyone is on the same page, here's what that passage says:

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

I absolutely agree that God predestined that those who would believe and love Him would receive His promise of eternal life. After all, that's the sum total of what the Scriptures are all about. Where my understanding differs from many others is the 'subject' of the word 'predestined'. Some believe that God 'predestined' that Bill and Joe and Beth and Sue would be saved. I believe that God 'predestined' that all those, anyone who will, believe God's testimony and choose to love and to serve Him would be saved. So, it's a matter of, does God mean in this passage that He chose certain individuals by name to be saved before they were ever born and before the foundations of the earth were set in place? Or, does God mean that He established or predestined before the foundations of the earth were set in place that anyone who was going to be born who would believe the testimony of His word and His Son and His Spirit as they lived their lives upon the earth, would be saved?

God absolutely 'predestined' before the foundations of the earth were established that He would send one who would be the Savior of all those who would believe, and a part of that 'predestination' was that for those who would, they would receive His promise of eternal life. That fact was predestined and established before God even stepped into this realm to create it.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Ephesians 1-12 is one of the most misunderstood passages in the Bible, primarily because most translations of the Bible hack into pieces one of the most beautiful sentences in the Bible—Ephesians 1:3-14

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:
Eph 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
Eph 1:10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,
Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;
Eph 1:12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:
Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, - in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory. (ASV)

In the Greek New Testament, Ephesians 1:3-14 is one sentence with one main clause and a multitude of subordinate clause, and is so translated in the ASV. The one and only main clause in Eph. 1:3-14 is “Εὐλογητὸς θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ,” Blessed (be) the God and Father (as is often the case in Koine Greek, the verb is implied but not given). Therefore, the entire passage is a doxology—a type of Eulogy. And like all eulogies, it presents only part of the story, completely leaving out man’s responsibility to God and our part in our election. For that part of the story, we need to read the doctrinal passages in the Bible.
 
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miamited

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Hi PG,

That's why I, as I often do, took out all of the divisions that man has placed in the Scriptures, out. Those divisions are most certainly helpful in looking up particular verses of the Scriptures. It's nice to be able to say to someone, "Well, in such and such a passage God's word says..." However, it also causes us to read the Scriptures in small parts rather than understanding that, in this instance, it is a letter that Paul wrote. Just as you and I might receive a letter from someone today, thoughts are generally carried through and discussed sometimes at great length and quite a long part of the letter might well be addressing the central thought or idea that is being written about.

That's also why I often say that it's a dangerous theology to take some manmade division of the Scriptures to assert an entire theological point. The Scriptures are, for the most part, an entire body of work of letters and writings and often to understand a point clearly we need to take out all the unnatural and unincluded 'stops' and just read the entire passage as it is written in its entirety.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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GrenBH

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2. Election is always according to foreknowledge.

"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
(ESV Joh 6:64-65)

Christ doesn't explain their unbelief as "you refused me." He explains their unbelief by plainly telling them, as he does all over this Gospel, that it was not granted them to believe. Read all the verses where Christ explains that His sheep hear His voice, and that they (unbelievers) do not hear His voice because they are not His sheep, but are the children of the devil. Christ even prays at one point "not for the world," but for those the Father has given Him out of the world. These teachings are very plainly spoken.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(Rom 9:6-16)

If it is not according to works, nor according to man's will, but on God's mercy alone, then what you claim directly contradicts these verses.
 
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GrenBH

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4. God offers salvation freely to whosoever will, and commands all men everywhere to repent because he is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. Which means that God will have ALL MEN to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I forgot to reply to this:

You refer to 2 Peter 3:9. It is clear that this sentiment is towards the elect, "to us-ward," and doesn't include the evildoers spoken of previously, whose judgment is coming. The Apostle, in fact, is comforting them, explaining that their current persecution done by these people has a good reason: the saving of all the elect, and that that is the reason why God has not yet struck down with his vengeance. It can only be until the full number of the Elect are brought it (otherwise, the world will never end, because there will always be new human beings to whom God must be long-suffering towards!). You also refer to 1 Titus 2:4. But then, even here, the context seems to speak of all classes of men rather than to every man. Even Augustine, long before Martin Luther or Calvin, recognized this, and so I use his commentary to speak for me:

“Or, it is said, “Who will have all men to be saved;” not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will (for how, then, explain the fact that He was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said, would have repented if He had worked them?), but that we are to understand by “all men,” the human race in all its varieties of rank and circumstances,—kings, subjects; noble, plebeian, high, low, learned, and unlearned; the sound in body, the feeble, the clever, the dull, the foolish, the rich, the poor, and those of middling circumstances; males, females, infants, boys, youths; young, middle-aged, and old men; of every tongue, of every fashion, of all arts, of all professions, with all the innumerable differences of will and conscience, and whatever else there is that makes a distinction among men. For which of all these classes is there out of which God does not will that men should be saved in all nations through His only-begotten Son, our Lord, and therefore does save them; for the Omnipotent cannot will in vain, whatsoever He may will? Now the apostle had enjoined that prayers should be made for all men, and had especially added, “For kings, and for all that are in authority,” who might be supposed, in the pride and pomp of worldly station, to shrink from the humility of the Christian faith. Then saying, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,” that is, that prayers should be made for such as these, he immediately adds, as if to remove any ground of despair, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” [I Tim. 2:1-4]. God, then, in His great condescension has judged it good to grant to the prayers of the humble the salvation of the exalted; and assuredly we have many examples of this. Our Lord, too, makes use of the same mode of speech in the Gospel, when He says to the Pharisees: “Ye tithe mint, and rue, and every herb” [Luke 11:42]. For the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of all the inhabitants of other lands. As, then, in this place we must understand by “every herb,” every kind of herbs, so in the former passage we may understand by “all men,” every sort of men. And we may interpret it in any other way we please, so long as we are not compelled to believe that the omnipotent God has willed anything to be done which was not done: for setting aside all ambiguities, if “He hath done all that He pleased in heaven and in earth” [Ps. 115:3]. as the psalmist sings of Him, He certainly did not will to do anything that He hath not done.” (Augustine, Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 103. Interpretation of the Expression in I Tim. 2:4: “Who Will Have All Men to Be Saved”.)

To add to the argument, I will point out that the Jews have always been slightly loose in their language, not always completely literal. This is important in understanding any other verse you might attempt to cite against us. One must be aware of the unique peculiarities Jews make use of in their language. For example, from Gill’s commentary, commenting on the Jewish use of the words “all the world, the world, the whole world, all the men of the world,” etc, Gill begins by quoting Jewish examples where the word is used in radically different ways from how we would use it today:

"“Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles, “the world”; and “the whole world”; and “the nations of the world” (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word “world” is so used in Scripture; see Joh_3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that “there is no propitiation for them” (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say (n),

‘it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, “the whole world” went after him;’’(n)

which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere (o) it is said,

“amle ylwk, “the “whole world” has left the Misna, and gone after the “Gemara”;’’

which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place (p),

“amle ylwk, “the whole world” fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;’’

where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said (q), when

“R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), “the whole world” stood up before him;’’

that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added (r),

“when a great man makes a mourning, “the whole world” come to honour him;’’

i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, “the whole world” is not divided, or does not dissent (s); “the whole world” are of opinion (t), are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, “all the men of the world” (u), only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, “all the world”, or “the whole world”, in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luk_2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1Jo_5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world”

(From Gill’s Commentary on 1 John 2:2, quoting from (l) Jarchi in Isa. liii. 5. (m) T. Hieros. Nazir, fol. 57. 3. Vid. T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2. (n) T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2. (o) T. Bab. Bava Metzia, fol. 33. 2. (p) T. Bab. Megilla, fol. 22. 2. (q) T. Bab. Horayot, fol. 13. 2. (r) Piske Toseph. Megilla, art. 104. (s) T. Bab. Cetubot, fol. 90. 2. & Kiddushin, fol. 47. 2. & 49. 1. & 65. 2. & Gittin, fol. 8. 1. & 60. 2. (t) T. Bab. Kiddushin, fol. 48. 1. (u) Maimon. Hilch. Tephilla, c. 11. sect. 16.)

Scriptural examples of this include:

Luk 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.

By this Luke means, not the whole habitable world, as much of it was still undiscovered, and not even the whole known world, which even in those days was not all under the power of the Roman empire, but just the Roman empire itself, or perhaps Judae.

Another one, which Gill mentioned:

1Jn 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Obviously we are no longer under the power of Satan, but have been released from his clutches by the power of Jesus Christ.

Another:

Luk 11:42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.”

Some translations render this “all manner of herb,” but, literally, it is “every herb,” which, obviously, the meaning is only every kind of herb. Augustine, you notice, used this example.

Another example:

“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.”
(Rom 3:10-11)

Obviously this cannot mean that no one seeks or understands, as all Christians seek and understand (though maybe not perfectly). But, Paul’s meaning is more general, referring to the depraved world, or of all Christians prior to Christ saving them, who, before that time, are incapable of seeing, believing or understanding until the Holy Spirit moves on them.

Another example, Christ distinguishing between the world and those given to Him out of the world:

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Thus the world does not mean everyone in the world, but all those not given to Him.

Another example:

Joh_12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Obviously the whole world wasn't going after him, and so the Pharisees here only speak of the "world" in the same sense they do all over their Talmud.

Finally, more direct examples, by comparing seemingly contradictory verses with their parallels:

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh_11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Thus the meaning is, Christ is the atonement for all the sins of the children of God scattered abroad, of every nation and tribe.
 
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Bluelion

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If we take what God says.

2 Peter 3:9 9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

and then
1 Tim 2 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior,4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

A person could say that everyone was predestine because God wants everyone saved.

I think the problem is with man when he tries to pull God down from Heaven and make Him subject to the same natural Law as Man such as time. I firmly Believe when a person is saved past,present,and future all come to one, that person is the start was with God being born from God, in the present that person is with God in heaven in spirit, Future that person spirit is all ready there and has been past over for judgement. In a sense Calvinist are right there are those who have always been with God and we are them. God does not say this is the day you came to me, He takes it as we have always been with Him and always perfect at the same time realizing our need for Jesus, that is to be saved. Its a contradiction I just made but not in spirit only in this world. We do not celebrate our reborn date, we have always been with God that we now live in God and Him in us. time has no baring to God it is only a clock for the last soul to come to God and that is the only reason evil is allowed to be around and work. That last soul is predestine God knows he is coming and that soul is will already be there. So what are we waiting on? the last soul, that is all. God knows who will come and who never will, so there is no sense in giving them time so why does God give them time? waiting on the last soul and to give them the chance. even by human standards if we know someone will commit murder they are not arrest for murder they did not committed, it is when they put the plan in to action or try or succeed they are arrested, if they fail it is attempted murder if they succeed it is murder and they go to jail for life. Hell is forever so they must be given a chance even though God knows what they will do, that is justice and fair.

I heard a preacher say God was not fair, so get the fair crap out of here it is of this world. I found that statement hard to accept and no where in the Bible have I found any where where God was not fair. So what is that statement saying, That God is not Just. But we know God is a Just and Righteous God. Justices is always fair, when is it not? So if God sent people to hell before there crimes that would be unfair, the only way Justice could be taken is if they were allowed to commit the crime then Justice could be taken. So why make them in the first place, they were never from God in the first place, sure God made them but the min they rejected God the stop being from Him now there is no time to God so fallen angels were never from him, the man who never comes, rejected God with Adams sin, he was from the line of cain who also rejected God. Jesus told us of the farmer who planted crops but his enemy came and planted weeds. Jesus said if the farmer pulled out the weeds He would rip up the good wheat, so let them grow together and at harvest pull them all up and separate them. The fall started with one angel and went through creation. God wanted us to follow Him out of love and not because there was no choice, So God created one angel knowing what he would do but gave him every chance not to do it, yet he sinned anyway, so he had the choice to and all of us have the choice. If there was not choice then we follow God because there is nothing else weather we love him or not. Would you want people to be friends with you because they had no one else to be friends with or because they wanted to be you friend. So we can under stand this when we put it in human terms. Humans want to be loved like God, at least God's children do. So for love, evil had to come around, but it will not always be. And that is the best i can wrap my mind around creation, in this world any ways.
 
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GrenBH

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I think the problem is with man when he tries to pull God down from Heaven and make Him subject to the same natural Law as Man such as time.

The translations you use take significant liberties. Here is how the KJV puts them: 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

In which case, they are entirely compatible with the explanations I have given, and consistent with Jewish use. It is true that the problem here is man trying to take God down from heaven to "make him subject" to something, but it is man trying to make him subject to man's need to feel he has earned his salvation. Nothing more. It is best not to engage in lengthy philosophizing, but to examine what the scriptures teach. Once we do so, we discover that the entirety of our salvation, in very plain terms, belongs absolutely in the hands of God.
 
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Bluelion

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The translations you use take significant liberties. Here is how the KJV puts them: 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

In which case, they are entirely compatible with the explanations I have given, and consistent with Jewish use. It is true that the problem here is man trying to take God down from heaven to "make him subject" to something, but it is man trying to make him subject to man's need to feel he has earned his salvation. Nothing more. It is best not to engage in lengthy philosophizing, but to examine what the scriptures teach. Once we do so, we discover that the entirety of our salvation, in very plain terms, belongs absolutely in the hands of God.

who said any thing about "earned salvation" as you put it?
 
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Bluelion

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"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
(ESV Joh 6:64-65)

Christ doesn't explain their unbelief as "you refused me." He explains their unbelief by plainly telling them, as he does all over this Gospel, that it was not granted them to believe. Read all the verses where Christ explains that His sheep hear His voice, and that they (unbelievers) do not hear His voice because they are not His sheep, but are the children of the devil. Christ even prays at one point "not for the world," but for those the Father has given Him out of the world. These teachings are very plainly spoken.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(Rom 9:6-16)

If it is not according to works, nor according to man's will, but on God's mercy alone, then what you claim directly contradicts these verses.

God calls to all but only certain one answer the call, its not because God has cursed them that they can not hear Him, its that in there heart they love evil, that is there heart, if they went to heaven they would not be happy because they could not sin, and sin is what they love never the-less God calls to them.
 
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GrenBH

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who said any thing about "earned salvation" as you put it?

If we assert that it is "of man that wills," or "of man that runs," then it cannot be only of "God who has mercy." Salvation in this case is not given gratuitously, but because we have met a condition. If it IS man who "wills" his salvation through faith, then it is legitimate to say that "it is not God who has mercy, but man who wills." But that is such an extreme contradiction to the text that it cannot stand.
 
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GrenBH

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God calls to all but only certain one answer the call, its not because God has cursed them that they can not hear Him, its that in there heart they love evil, that is there heart, if they went to heaven they would not be happy because they could not sin, and sin is what they love never the-less God calls to them.

In other words, there is a qualitative difference between the convert and the person who refuses to convert. But the scripture testifies that "there are none who are righteous, no not one. There are none who seek God, there are none who understand." And also "What causes you to differ? And what have you that you have not received?"

There is no difference between the reprobate and the elect except one thing: that God grants repentance to one and not the other. Otherwise, both are dead in sin, and have no power to believe or to repent.
 
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Bluelion

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If we assert that it is "of man that wills," or "of man that runs," then it cannot be only of "God who has mercy." Salvation in this case is not given gratuitously, but because we have met a condition. If it IS man who "wills" his salvation through faith, then it is legitimate to say that "it is not God who has mercy, but man who wills." But that is such an extreme contradiction to the text that it cannot stand.

well its not that man wills it but it takes a willful act by man. He must accept God's gift of salvation or reject it these 2 choices are made very clear in the bible. If I accept God's gift doesn't mean I earned it, its a gift, if I take it does mean I went out and got the gift. The work price and gift are still all from God I did no work on my own other then say Yes. God trys to give the gift to everyone but some people say no i don't want the gift and God does not force them to take it and some say yes a gift oh boy I want that and take it. It still all comes from God. Your argument is a logical fallacies which you give two options and say either this or its that when those are not the only possibilities it could be. Its not a vaild arugement.
 
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Bluelion

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In other words, there is a qualitative difference between the convert and the person who refuses to convert. But the scripture testifies that "there are none who are righteous, no not one. There are none who seek God, there are none who understand." And also "What causes you to differ? And what have you that you have not received?"

There is no difference between the reprobate and the elect except one thing: that God grants repentance to one and not the other. Otherwise, both are dead in sin, and have no power to believe or to repent.

Logical fallacies again same thing present two options and say its either this or that, its not a valid argument. God was referring to is we do no work, God did the work, some except and some don't the free gift, just because a person excepts the gift does not mean God already gave it to them so they could. Everyone is give the best chance for them in this life to accept the gift, some people simple do not want it, they love sin, they would not be happy with the gift. as God said a pig returns to the mud. Some however say what is in that box and take it. I do not know what its like not to be saved, but I have a sinful nature like everyone else, even with the sinful nature I new right from wrong. God convicts gentiles with this saying they new right from wrong before they new God. Some people just love the wrong way while others do not love the wrong way. If you ask me what makes one man love evil and another love good, I could not say for sure but then again neither could you. God works on all of us.

As a 6 year old boy when i came to Jesus, I wanted to be loved, i was not loved by my family, what I was told That God loved me and if i accepted Him He would love me forever and i could be with Him. i knew I had done wrong guilt told me that, but I did not know love until God came in to my heart. oh i thought i did but I did not, was my heart transformed before i came to God? it was soften, but once God came into my heart i was transformed not before.
 
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Job8

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But then, even here, the context seems to speak of all classes of men rather than to every man.
Christians must be EXTREMELY CAREFUL about misrepresenting God and His purposes, particularly when it comes to the salvation of souls. Let's assume that "ALL" means "SOME" (which is ridiculous, but then Five Point Calvinism is ridiculous).

We still have all the WHOSOEVERs of Scripture scattered throughout the Bible, in particular John 3:16. And "whosoever" means "whosoever" regardless of anything else. It is equivalent to "anyone and everyone", and is reflected in the parable of the Wedding Feast, where anyone and everyone was invited to come.

Please note carefully what the Holy Spirit says, and then recalibrate your doctrine accordingly (Revelation 22:17):And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
 
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twin1954

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Christians must be EXTREMELY CAREFUL about misrepresenting God and His purposes, particularly when it comes to the salvation of souls. Let's assume that "ALL" means "SOME" (which is ridiculous, but then Five Point Calvinism is ridiculous).

We still have all the WHOSOEVERs of Scripture scattered throughout the Bible, in particular John 3:16. And "whosoever" means "whosoever" regardless of anything else. It is equivalent to "anyone and everyone", and is reflected in the parable of the Wedding Feast, where anyone and everyone was invited to come.

Please note carefully what the Holy Spirit says, and then recalibrate your doctrine accordingly (Revelation 22:17):And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
You mistakenly think that Calvinists do not believe in whosoever will. We do believe in whosoever will. Any who desire the mercy of God in Christ by faith are welcome to come. The problem isn't with whosoever will it is in whosoever will not. Christ told some folks in John 5 the they would not come to Him that they might have life, John 5:40. The problem is the will. Men will not and cannot come to Christ as He clearly teaches again in John 6:44. Calling a dead man to come up out of the grave with a promise of life will fall on dead ears unless the dead man is given life in order to hear. A dead man cannot will himself out of the grave.

Moreover "all" is a word that can never stand alone. It must be qualified to be understood. Standing alone you would be hard pressed to determine what it is taking about.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


Thus the world does not mean everyone in the world, but all those not given to Him.

In John 17:9, John distinguishes between all people everywhere (the world), and those persons whom the Father has given to Jesus.
 
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Job8

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Moreover "all" is a word that can never stand alone. It must be qualified to be understood. Standing alone you would be hard pressed to determine what it is taking about.
"All" can, and does, and must stand alone. Otherwise we will make Scripture stand on its head. God does not mislead people or play semantic games.
 
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Job8

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You mistakenly think that Calvinists do not believe in whosoever will. We do believe in whosoever will.
Then why do you deny that God will have ALL MEN to be saved? If anyone and everyone is invited to Christ, then ALL could be saved if ALL would come. But you clearly deny that.

And please note. All could be saved, but all will not be saved, and here's the reason why (John 3:17-19) which also plainly tells us "THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED": For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
 
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