Ellen White vs. the Bible--A Test Case--Married Sexual Practice

[bbbbbbb]

I said in so many words to your husband, that not everything that EGW said verbally or put into writing came directly from God. That doesn't mean she never wrote anything that was inspired by the Spirit of God. Books like: Steps to Christ, The Desire of Ages, the Great Controversy were surely inspired by God. The OT and NT prophets of old in lives said verbally many things that were not inspired at times. But, that did not negate the things that were inspired. We can tell what is what, by simply prayerfully reading what they said or wrote. The books of the Bible were compiled in that fashion in that human beings over time determined was inspired and what was not. Hence the 66 books of the Bible. Who could say that Noah, who got drunk after the waters receded and he planted a vineyard and got drunk and naked by drinking the fermented wine? Who can say Abraham with all his faults was not inspired and saw a vision of Jesus in the future? Or of David who committed murder and adultery, but also wrote so many inspired Psalms? And Paul who no wrote and said many things in the life that were hateful and wrong, but also was shown visions of heaven and Jesus, and wrote many of the books of the NT. You hold EGW up to a standard that no even the Bible writers and prophets were held to!

I am amazed! I never imagined that the SDA was on the same plane as the LDS when it comes to divine revelation. The LDS unabashedly place Joseph Smith on the same level of inspiration as the writers of the Bible (stating that many of the more extreme things that he and Brigham Young wrote and claimed to be divinely inspired, were, in fact, not really inspired). You have the same conundrum they have. Your founder claimed inspiration for writings which have now proven to be embarrassing, if not downright false, so you have taken upon yourselves the editing of the "inspired" writings to sift out that which is acceptable and that which is not.

 

[Keachian]

I didn't know that SDAs still looked to EGW for guidance, I asked my SDA friend about her like 6-7 years ago and he was like "who's she" and he was a pastor's son.

 

[TruthWave7]

I didn't know that SDAs still looked to EGW for guidance, I asked my SDA friend about her like 6-7 years ago and he was like "who's she" and he was a pastor's son.

Read the SDA's 28 fundamental doctrines, that is our basis of faith, the writings of EGW are held to lesser level than the Bible, they are there for inspiration and guidance to the church, that is what the prophets of old gave in ancient times. And should we be surprised by that fact, as the book of Joel predicted in the last days that young men and women, and old men and women as well would be given the gift of prophecy.

 

[TruthWave7]

I am amazed! I never imagined that the SDA was on the same plane as the LDS when it comes to divine revelation. The LDS unabashedly place Joseph Smith on the same level of inspiration as the writers of the Bible (stating that many of the more extreme things that he and Brigham Young wrote and claimed to be divinely inspired, were, in fact, not really inspired). You have the same conundrum they have. Your founder claimed inspiration for writings which have now proven to be embarrassing, if not downright false, so you have taken upon yourselves the editing of the "inspired" writings to sift out that which is acceptable and that which is not.

I'm amazed at your lack of understanding of the SDA position. We hold the Bible and the Bible only as the basis of our faith and our 28 fundamental doctrines. EGW is viewed as an non-canonical prophet, in that she was a prophet but didn't have any of her books put into the Bible. Her writings are not used as basis for doctrine, but for inspiration. The LDS holds the non-coninical writings of Joseph Smith as equal to, or of even of higher authority as than the Bible. How is it that you cannot admit that even the prophets of old who prophesied were not perfect human beings, and that none of them uttered 100% inspired words throughout their lives? All of the Bible prophets were as we are, fallen sinners. There were scores of books that were not included in the 66 books because of their overall incongruence with the other writings that were inspired.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm amazed at your lack of understanding of the SDA position. We hold the Bible and the Bible only as the basis of our faith and your 28 fundamental doctrines. EGW is viewed a non-canonical prophet, in that she was a prophet by didn't have any of her books put into the Bible. Her writings are not used as basis for doctrine, but for inspiration. The LDS holds the non-coninical writings of Joseph Smith as equal or even of higher authority as than the Bible. How is it that you cannot admit that even the prophets of old who prophesied were not perfect human beings, and that none of them uttered 100% inspired words throughout their lives? All of the Bible prophets were as we are fallen sinners. There were scores of books that were not included in the 66 books because of their overall incongruence with the other writings that were inspired.

The difficulty I have in understanding your posts is that you seem to be equating the prophets of the Old Testament with Ellen White and her writings. However, you do state that the Bible alone is considered to be the only basis of your faith. If the latter is the case, what role does anything Ellen White wrote play. If nothing of her writings is as inspired as the Bible, why continue to follow her dictates? Where are the other prophets that you apparently believe to be active in the church to this day, or was she the only prophet?

 

[tall73]

I'm amazed at your lack of understanding of the SDA position. We hold the Bible and the Bible only as the basis of our faith and our 28 fundamental doctrines. EGW is viewed as an non-canonical prophet, in that she was a prophet but didn't have any of her books put into the Bible. Her writings are not used as basis for doctrine, but for inspiration.

The fundamental belief says her writings are a continuing source of truth, not just inspiration.

And the doctrine of her writings being an example of the Spirit in the last days can be nothing but beyond the Bible as she is not mentioned in the Bible.

The LDS holds the non-coninical writings of Joseph Smith as equal to, or of even of higher authority as than the Bible.

But on a practical level many SDA's do as well. Because if Ellen White commented on a Bible passage then they take her interpretation as the correct one.

If she interprets the Bible then she is, in the usage of the church, above it.

 

[tall73]

Here is what the fundamental belief on the gift of prophecy says:


18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

 

[tall73]

You do realize that there are some people who aren't healthy enough to have sex. That's what I got from most of her statements to the "some".

She was addressing people who were having sex but that she thought were wasting vital force that could be used for better purposes.

If folks were not healthy enough to be having sex they would just not be having sex in most cases. (It may be true that some might have health conditions that they didn't know about, but then how would they know to apply the advice?).

If you read the other comment by her about being accountable for every expenditure, and keeping the body in the best condition, then you will see how this relates.

She also identifies the ones she is talking about in this quote--those who have already expended lots of vital force through sexual release from youth up.

Many have no strength at all to waste in this direction. They have already, from their youth up, weakened their brains, and sapped their constitutions, by the gratification of their animal passions.


In other words, they already used up all their "sex" allotment of vital force.

 

[tall73]

Google books now has a treatise by J.N. Loughborough, one of the early Adventist pioneers, online. Previoulsy I could only find this quote from second hand sources. This quote gives more insight into the view of Vital Force at the time.

Hand Book of Health: Or, a Brief Treatise on Physiology and Hygiene
By John Norton Loughborough


17. What is the vital force of the human body?

It is that power placed in the human body, at its birth, which will enable the body, under favorable circumstances, to live to a certain age. It is this which enables the body to rally and bring to bear its energies in throwing off disease. It also battles against those influences that are liable to produce disease. It is spoken of in common-place language as the constitution. Of one it is said, "He will rally from that disease if his constitution is not broken." Of another, "He cannot rally, his constitution is gone;" meaning that either their vital force has so far been expended, or interfered with by violations of nature's laws, that it no longer has power to battle for the life of the body.

18. Can the original stock of this vital force be increased or diminished?

It cannot be restored when once expended, but it may be wasted, and life shortened proportionately.

 

[tall73]

Another quote where Ellen White is very similar to other writers of the time on the vital force notion.

Dedication of Antioch college, and inaugural address of its president, Hon Horace Mann: with other proceedings.

Man came from the hand of God so perfect in his bodily organs, so defiant of cold and heat, of drought and humidity, so surcharged with vital force, that it took more than two thousand years of the combined abominations of appetite and ignorance; it took successive ages of outrageous excess and debauchery, to drain off his electric energies and make him even accessible to disease; and then it took ages more to breed all these vile distempers which now nestle, like vermin, in every organ and fibre of our bodies!
Dedication of Antioch college, and inaugural address of its president, Hon Horace Mann

Compare with


Man came from the hand of God perfect in every faculty of mind and body; in perfect soundness, therefore in perfect health. It took more than two thousand years of indulgence of appetite and lustful passions to create such a state of things in the human organism as would lessen vital force. {4T 29.3} Ellen White

Here Ellen White references having Mann in her collection:

MR No. 1119
Written June 5, 1899, from Sunnyside, N.S.W., to Edson and Emma White.)

I have books—I think four or five volumes to Barnes’s Notes, large books. I want them. They can be packed in a box of books coming to Australia. There are other books. I would appreciate Horace Mann, but you look over my books and tell me in regard to them. What property have I in Battle Creek? Will you just ascertain? I do not know as you can read this scribbling. If you can, I shall be pleased.—Letter 243, 1899, p. 2. {14MR 281.1}
Ellen G. White Estate
Washington, D. C.,
April 11, 1985.

 

[Avniel]

It's possible that Ellen's directive to the faithful would allow additional meditation time...
...To contemplate the in's and out's of the base crime of inappropriate behavior with animals.





Certain races of "men", which God did not create, were stated to exist in 1864...
...The actual mechanics of these beastly races of men was resulantant from inappropriate behavior with animals in which it was believed Great Apes bred wanton human females.

The hottentots of the cape area were believed to be the result of male Orangutan on black female intercourse...
...This belief is well documented and can also be confirmed by looking up "Hottentot Venus"...

To be fair to Ellen most of the people of her day accepted this as a fact of life and it's very possible she associated the fruit of inappropriate behavior with animals with the animal like lusts at times experienced in a relationship.

For absolute confirmation on Ellen's teaching that Great Apes bred human females resulting in "confused species" which God did not create I point the interested in the direction of Gustav Jahoda's excellent book; Images of Savages.

It is possible that Ellen's teaching on married people ceasing to have sex was an attempt to dwell on the greatest sin the world has ever known, i.e. the creation of species of men that God Himself didn't create.

That is soooo racist....so what about the kushite women?

 

[Avniel]

Read the SDA's 28 fundamental doctrines, that is our basis of faith, the writings of EGW are held to lesser level than the Bible, they are there for inspiration and guidance to the church, that is what the prophets of old gave in ancient times. And should we be surprised by that fact, as the book of Joel predicted in the last days that young men and women, and old men and women as well would be given the gift of prophecy.

There were also predictions of a lot of false prophets.

 

[FredVB]

There were also predictions of a lot of false prophets.

The false prophets are to be known with clear errors that they will be seen to make. Saying errors of human sexuality and of human variation, as well as mistaken ideas of what is healthy, along with the unsubstantiated claims of Christ's work in the 1800s should show the speaker if claiming to be a prophet to be false. What real prophecy will yet come forth is more likely in the coming time of great tribulation.

 

[FredVB]

Prophecies for something to come need something visible to people in this world to verify it to really be fulfilled. Nothing happened for that in the 1840s when there was something claimed for the prophecies for the Millerites to be accepted, and Ellen White based her movement with Seventh Day Adventists on what was taught among Millerites. If the Adventists weren't saying congregating of believers on Sunday would be the mark of the Beast, they would have a case for their observing the seventh day to rest and have a day to worship. The times are coming when the rule of those in this world will end, and salvation from Yahweh which is through Christ will be fully revealed as those fighting against God are removed. As shown in Isaiah 56:6-8 the sons of foreigners who join to Yahweh, serving and loving the name of Yahweh, keeping themselves from defiling the Sabbath, will be brought to God's holy mountain, where God's house is to be a house of prayer to all nations, Yahweh who gathers the outcasts of Israel will gather others besides. When the times of judgment are finally coming, there will be the chosen separated in God's work here, while nations here now are mostly gone or very much powerless, as there would be collapses in any of many possible ways, and the one represented as the Beast in scriptures will have come to power, and what I think will be a physical mark will designate those who commit to serving him being in blasphemy, in place of God, and two witness that are designated to come will show real prophecies to be fulfilled in what comes, with miracles which attest to them.

 

[FredVB]

From reference.com:

"The vital force theory, or vitalism, was based on the idea that every living thing had a soul or spirit. According to this theory, inorganic materials were devoid of life because they did not contain this vital force. In living organisms, the vital spirit was a substance that infused with the body of an organism to give life. Vitalism was developed during the 16th century as a contrast to the mechanistic view, which explained that animals and human beings are mechanical devices different from artificial devices only in their degree of complexity. French anatomist Xavier Bichat identified 21 distinct kinds of tissue in the body and managed to explain the behavior of organisms in terms of their "vital properties." Through his experiments, Bichat concluded that there were additional fundamental forces in nature that maintained the physical and chemical processes in the human body. By the end of the 19th century, vitalism was discredited as a logical theory because it made unfalsifiable claims with no definite predictions."

This theory of vital force was still held to be true by Ellen White. So in spite of having insight into godly truths, she doesn't show the qualification of a prophet with revelation from Yahweh our God. The Bible itself gives basis for belief that indeed the Sabbath is holy itself, and it is right to remember it, resting in the way known for doing so with coming to Yahweh. Christ came making it possible such as it hadn't been without Christ, thus Christ was not speaking to end Sabbath rest, but saying that such a day of rest was available to all men and so women too. It should be made available to those who work for one, or that one sins with not having it available to them. And what is said of it shows the Creator's care for creatures generally.