Ellen White: Meat eating weakens moral powers

[tall73]

A lot of things weaken moral values. MUSIC is a big one.

The content of the lyrics, and the characteristics of the music itself play a role. The question might make an interesting thread somewhere.

The purpose of this thread is to look at evidence that meat eating caused weakened moral power in the case of the Israelites, and that God wanted to limit meat eating among the Israelites, as Ellen White indicated.

Ellen White's comments seem out of step with the various Scripture verses.

For instance:

​

Ellen White:

By departing from the plan divinely appointed for their diet, the Israelites suffered great loss. They desired a flesh diet, and they reaped its results. They did not reach God's ideal of character or fulfill His purpose. -CCH 228​

​

Scripture:

Deuteronomy 12:20 “When the Lord your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, ‘Let me eat meat,’ because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.​

 

[tall73]

What does diabetes have to do with the SDA diet, not seeing the connection.

I don't think there is any direct connection.

Ellen White discouraged lots of sugar as well.

There are Adventist vegetarian diets that help reduce diabetes. Our church had a program, similar to the CHIP program (Coronary Health Improvement Program), but geared towards diabetes, that community members could participate in that would give education on diet, and peer support in lowering blood sugar, etc.

On the other hand, you can also overdo carbs as a vegetarian if you are not paying attention to such issues. And there has been more information gained over time on that aspect.

In this case, the thread is not primarily on the health impacts, but rather the moral impact.

 

[The Liturgist]

The idea that eating meat weakens moral “powers” is absurd, since we humans are powerless with regards to our morality, except through Divine Grace, which comes from two primary sources: the acts of the Holy Spirit, and the sacraments, for example, of Baptism and Chrismation which facilitate the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our regenerate flesh, and in Holy Communion, wherein we actually partake of meat by eating the body of Christ our True God.

It is easy to see in light of this innovative doctrine why Adventists adopted Memorialism, which was not an interpretation of the Eucharist taught by the Early Church (but conveniently, Adventists teach a Great Apostasy doctrine and, like Landmark Baptists, share the concept of a mythologized history of the preservation of what they believe to be their doctrine by a succession of groups like the Bogomils and Paulicians whose teachings were in fact completely different from Adventism, and in some cases we have some of their scriptures and theological writings. However, like with Landmark Baptism, the history of the early church presented by Adventists is simply untrue; the early church did not teach Credobaptism and it did not teach Sabbatarianism, rather quite the opposite based on a reading of the Pauline Epistles, Luke-Acts, and so on..

 

[Adventist Heretic]

The idea that eating meat weakens moral “powers” is absurd, since we humans are powerless with regards to our morality, except through Divine Grace, which comes from two primary sources: the acts of the Holy Spirit, and the sacraments, for example, of Baptism and Chrismation which facilitate the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our regenerate flesh, and in Holy Communion, wherein we actually partake of meat by eating the body of Christ our True God.

It is easy to see in light of this innovative doctrine why Adventists adopted Memorialism, which was not an interpretation of the Eucharist taught by the Early Church (but conveniently, Adventists teach a Great Apostasy doctrine and, like Landmark Baptists, share the concept of a mythologized history of the preservation of what they believe to be their doctrine by a succession of groups like the Bogomils and Paulicians whose teachings were in fact completely different from Adventism, and in some cases we have some of their scriptures and theological writings. However, like with Landmark Baptism, the history of the early church presented by Adventists is simply untrue; the early church did not teach Credobaptism and it did not teach

Sabbatarianism, rather quite the opposite based on a reading of the Pauline Epistles, Luke-Acts, and so on..

Are you saying that the Apostles ......
1. Instituted the Lord's Day, While Still keeping the Sabbath?
2. Instutited the Lord's Day & Abandoned the Sabbath?

I believe it to be #1

 

[tall73]

Are you saying that the Apostles ......
1. Instituted the Lord's Day, While Still keeping the Sabbath?
2. Instutited the Lord's Day & Abandoned the Sabbath?

An interesting discussion, but there are a number of threads on that topic. This is on the topic of whether meat eating weakens moral powers.

Perhaps @The Liturgist would be willing to start a thread on the topic.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

The idea that eating meat weakens moral “powers” is absurd, since we humans are powerless with regards to our morality, except through Divine Grace, which comes from two primary sources: the acts of the Holy Spirit, and the sacraments, for example, of Baptism and Chrismation which facilitate the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our regenerate flesh, and in Holy Communion, wherein we actually partake of meat by eating the body of Christ our True God.

This statement needs to be examined Because I know many people who are "good" people by all accounts, they are moral, but may not be Holy, and able to reconcile themselves to God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

This statement needs to be examined Because I know many people who are "good" people by all accounts, they are moral, but may not be Holy, and able to reconcile themselves to God.

Out of curiosity, do you think that by abstaining from eating meat one is thereby able to reconcile themselves to God?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Out of curiosity, do you think that by abstaining from eating meat one is thereby able to reconcile themselves to God?

not at all, food can make you healthy and give you a clear mind, but not make you holy.

 

[bbbbbbb]

not at all, food can make you healthy and give you a clear mind, but not make you holy.

What means do you perceive that one must do to reconcile oneself with God?

 

[BobRyan]

not at all, food can make you healthy and give you a clear mind, but not make you holy.

good point.

The "all Ellen White all the time" threads do not interest me much -- but I do appreciate your coming here to add your view on this one.

 

[tall73]

good point.

The "all Ellen White all the time" threads do not interest me much -- but I do appreciate your coming here to add your view on this one.

This is, of course, not an all Ellen White thread Bob. We are discussing Scripture as well, such as these texts indicating the Israelites may eat as much meat as they desire, according to the blessing of the Lord:

Deuteronomy 12:15 “However, you may slaughter and eat meat within all your gates, whatever your heart desires, according to the blessing of the Lord your God which He has given you; the unclean and the clean may eat of it, of the gazelle and the deer alike.

Deuteronomy 12:20 “When the Lord your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, ‘Let me eat meat,’ because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires.

 

[bbbbbbb]

good point.

The "all Ellen White all the time" threads do not interest me much -- but I do appreciate your coming here to add your view on this one.

Hi Bob. I will ask you if you see any moral value in abstaining from eating meat. Thank you.

 

[FireDragon76]

People that eat vegetarian diets tend to have significantly high heart rate variability, which is a generally accepted biomarker for better stress adaptation, among other things. So perhaps White's words aren't so ridiculous after all.

At any rate, White's thoughts about meat eating were not entirely original. Sylvester Graham, a Presbyterian preacher, was a well-known advocate for vegetarianism and eating unrefined flour, and White was influenced by his teaching.

 

[bbbbbbb]

People that eat vegetarian diets tend to have significantly high heart rate variability, which is a generally accepted biomarker for better stress adaptation, among other things. So perhaps White's words aren't so ridiculous after all.

At any rate, White's thoughts about meat eating were not entirely original. Sylvester Graham, a Presbyterian preacher, was a well-known advocate for vegetarianism and eating unrefined flour, and White was influenced by his teaching.

I still enjoy Graham crackers if, in other form, than S'Mores. Ironically, of course, they are not a health food at all.

 

[FireDragon76]

I still enjoy Graham crackers if, in other form, than S'Mores. Ironically, of course, they are not a health food at all.
View attachment 346638

From my research, I'm not sure Graham actually advocated for the "Graham Cracker" in any form. Others attached his name to their product. He advocated using unrefined flour in baking, as did many physicians in previous centuries (which was common in the bread of the poor, but wealthier people usually avoided it).

 

[bbbbbbb]

From my research, I'm not sure Graham actually advocated for the "Graham Cracker" in any form. Others attached his name to their product. He advocated using unrefined flour in baking, as did many physicians in previous centuries (which was common in the bread of the poor, but wealthier people usually avoided it).

It is curious how these things develop. William Kellogg, a deeply committed Seventh-Day Adventist, was infuriated when his much younger brother began adding sugar to his cereals in order to broaden their appeal and saleability. William Kellogg failed to stop this marketing ploy and had a major falling-out with his brother as a result. However, Kelloggs never fell into the trap that General Mills et. al. did in the 1960s by marketing what was in essence candy in the form of cereal.

 

[trophy33]

However, Kelloggs never fell into the trap that General Mills et. al. did in the 1960s by marketing what was in essence candy in the form of cereal.

Or:
"It's shocking that a company like Kellogg's would sue the government over its plans to help people be healthier rather than investing in removing sugar from their cereals."

Kellogg's in court battle over new rules for high-sugar cereals

The company says new healthy food rules fail to consider the nutritional value of milk added to cereals.

www.bbc.com

 

[bbbbbbb]

Or:
"It's shocking that a company like Kellogg's would sue the government over its plans to help people be healthier rather than investing in removing sugar from their cereals."

Kellogg's in court battle over new rules for high-sugar cereals

The company says new healthy food rules fail to consider the nutritional value of milk added to cereals.

www.bbc.com

Thanks! Such are the ways of capitalism.

 

[trophy33]

Thanks! Such are the ways of capitalism.

Socialism has sweets and junk food too... Its more about the addictive nature of sugar, alcohol or tobacco, thats why these things are consumed basically in all regimes and in all places.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Socialism has sweets and junk food too... Its more about the addictive nature of sugar, alcohol or tobacco, thats why these things are consumed basically in all regimes and in all places.

Such is human nature. Society, whether capitalist, socialist, or any other form, ultimately caters to human interests and needs.