DUGGERS and 3 questions

[Archaeopteryx]

One sin stopped while the other persists.

There's a difference.

Which sin is worse, Patrick?

 

[High Fidelity]

Which sin is worse, Patrick?

That's for God to decide.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

It must be okay because they're supposed to be the perfect Christian family. Personally, I can't see past their raging hypocrisy and dislike of people not like them already so you'll pardon me if I don't give them the benefit of the doubt.

If they weren't Christian you would not be as defensive about them I'm sure.

um.. 12 years ago, if this happened.. like.. last week.. maybe i would agree with you. A lot ca happen in 12 years. If it was still going on for 12 years we would have a problem.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That's for God to decide.

You can't even bring yourself to say it? I would think the answer is blatantly obvious. Do you think being married to a person of the same sex is as bad as what Josh did to those girls?

 

[evoeth]

Morally there's a difference, sure, but both are sin.

It's good that you immediately recognize that the concept of sin is a moral equivocation.

It's also important to remember that consent in the sense that two people are willing and legally free to do so under secular law doesn't excuse them from wrongdoing by biblical standard.

So yes, while one may be worse than the other, the repentance of one sin compared to the persistence of another is something to be considered.

But then despite the recognition you continue in the argument that persistence is still relevant?

It's also important to point out that sin is irrelevant to justice. More than irrelevant, it's a barrier. Sin a concept that has no basis outside of idiosyncratic religious belief. Which is to say what is sin differs wildly from person to person, religion to religion, etc. And because of that, and because different religions share no common religious authority, sin can never be a basis for justice in a pluralistic society.

 

[evoeth]

As I said in the last thread, Please people grow up. this happened 12 years ago when he was also a child. This does not excuse what happened.

Then why are you using it to excuse Josh from society's judgment on him?

But Josh Dugger is not a pedophile since he was also underage.

Legally maybe. But if we're using the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia, he is barely not a pedophile. He sexually molested four of his pre-pubescent sisters. As a 15 year old. I remember what my sexual interests were when I was fifteen and it sure didn't include four year old and eight year old girls!

 

[High Fidelity]

You can't even bring yourself to say it? I would think the answer is blatantly obvious. Do you think being married to a person of the same sex is as bad as what Josh did to those girls?

Like I said, that's for God to decide.

I obviously find them both repugnant, but I hold no ill-will towards either perpetrator.

Sin is sin. The severity of which is for God to decide.

 

[High Fidelity]

It's good that you immediately recognize that the concept of sin is a moral equivocation.

But then despite the recognition you continue in the argument that persistence is still relevant?

It's also important to point out that sin is irrelevant to justice. More than irrelevant, it's a barrier. Sin a concept that has no basis outside of idiosyncratic religious belief. Which is to say what is sin differs wildly from person to person, religion to religion, etc. And because of that, and because different religions share no common religious authority, sin can never be a basis for justice in a pluralistic society.

Persistence is relevant.

Sinning and repenting is one thing. Persisting in sin is another.

 

[evoeth]

Persistence is relevant.

Sinning and repenting is one thing. Persisting in sin is another.

But you just got done recognizing that while sins may have no moral difference, that these two acts do have a moral difference. So I don't see why persistence of the "sin" is relevant. What value system were you using to make that judgment that the two acts are morally different?

 

[JustOneWay]

By SDMSANJOSE


3. How many of us could raise 19 children and only have one failure in the family?

How do we know this is the only failure?

It seems this question also is an attempt to cut them slack because they had 19 kids. Why should we bother to try to imagine how we would do if we had 19 kids?

 

[Armoured]

I am not real surprised that this far right ultra-moral family has a sex skeleton in the closet. Trying to live the ultra-moral life is commendable but with 21 in the family it is no big surprise that one has violated the sex positions of the very conservative Christian.

Other than the failure of Josh at age 14 there seems to not be any other reason to punish the Dugger family. Josh has given up his job and lost an income sourse, the Dugger family has lost the reality show, the Dugger parents and family have to suffer the fact that their daugters are victims of molestation from their own family, and now the public humiliation. QUESTIONS 1 and 2

1 What good does it to berate them more?

2. Do they deserve more punishments?

Although I am no fan of ultra conservative Christian Republicans, I do admire the Dugger parents for raising so many children and taking in the father’s mother into the household. As far as I know there are no other moral failures in that family and that is to be commended.
Question 3

3. How many of us could raise 19 children and only have one failure in the family?

1 "don't molest your sisters" is hardly a value exclusive to conservative Christians
2 Yes. As discussed elsewhere, were they not the paradigm for Christian wholesomeness they present themselves as, but rather left leaning homosexuality advocates, the very people urging restraint would be baying for blood.
3. Yeah, there's failures and then failures, you know? Raise 19 kids and one shoplifts occasionally, or struggles in school or employment, that's one thing. Raise a sexual predator? AND shield him from prosecution? That's a pretty big failure...

 

[High Fidelity]

But you just got done recognizing that while sins may have no moral difference, that these two acts do have a moral difference. So I don't see why persistence of the "sin" is relevant. What value system were you using to make that judgment that the two acts are morally different?

Admitting fault and seeking forgiveness is quite different to ignoring wrongdoing and persisting in said wrongdoing.

You may not believe the concept of repentance, but it's part of Christianity. You're welcome to disagree with it, but you need to understand that Christians believe it.

 

[graceandpeace]

This is not complicated.

TLC had to have known about the molestation, yet they signed on for the show anyway because of the money to be made. That reflects poorly on TLC.

The Duggers kept everything quiet for the purposes of the show because to have aired what happened with Josh would have ensured the loss of the show & (you guessed it), the loss of the money to be made.

People are outraged because 1) the hypocrisy. The transphobic robo-call implying transgendered persons might be pedophiles, for example - while harboring a pedophile under their own roof who molested his own sisters!

2) even knowing this, the parents still continued to have more children. When one of the older kids is a sex offender, it's time to stop having more children & focus one the ones you already have. (Nevermind that I think having that many kids is selfish & irresponsible to begin with, but I digress on that point.) It's wrong to almost expect your older children to watch your younger children while continuing to have more. Kids need the attention of their parents.

3) people defending Josh are making things worse. While I'm glad he apologized & I do sincerely hope he got help & is no longer harming children, coming to his defense in a way that minimalizes or overshadows what happened to the girls is disgusting. 14-15 years old is old enough to know that molesting your own sisters is wrong, so continuing the narrative that he was "just a kid" is really not helping. Granted, the strict moral policing of the family may have contributed to something like this happening, but that's no excuse.

To be clear, I believe in forgiveness & second chances, but people are rightfully angry for the reasons outlined above.

 

[Cearbhall]

The double-standard of this is incredible; the same lady who sent out a robocall to the whole state of Arkansas about how evil trans- people were and how homosexuals are more inclined to be molesters was the one harboring a pedophile the whole time.

This is what gets me the most.

 

[High Fidelity]

This is not complicated.

TLC had to have known about the molestation, yet they signed on for the show anyway because of the money to be made. That reflects poorly on TLC.

The Duggers kept everything quiet for the purposes of the show because to have aired what happened with Josh would have ensured the loss of the show & (you guessed it), the loss of the money to be made.

People are outraged because 1) the hypocrisy. The transphobic robo-call implying transgendered persons might be pedophiles, for example - while harboring a pedophile under their own roof who molested his own sisters!

2) even knowing this, the parents still continued to have more children. When one of the older kids is a sex offender, it's time to stop having more children & focus one the ones you already have. (Nevermind that I think having that many kids is selfish & irresponsible to begin with, but I digress on that point.) It's wrong to almost expect your older children to watch your younger children while continuing to have more. Kids need the attention of their parents.

3) people defending Josh are making things worse. While I'm glad he apologized & I do sincerely hope he got help & is no longer harming children, coming to his defense in a way that minimalizes or overshadows what happened to the girls is disgusting. 14-15 years old is old enough to know that molesting your own sisters is wrong, so continuing the narrative that he was "just a kid" is really not helping. Granted, the strict moral policing of the family may have contributed to something like this happening, but that's no excuse.

To be clear, I believe in forgiveness & second chances, but people are rightfully angry for the reasons outlined above.

I'm yet to see someone discount the severity of his actions. The conversation seemed to shift, though, to comparing two separate sins and the attempt to add emotion to it as a means of discrediting the Christian understanding and belief in repentance.

I think people need to respect that they are welcome to disagree with Christian teaching and understanding, but going against it in the manner it has been seen lately is tantamount to promoting a belief system outside of Christianity, which isn't allowed.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I'm yet to see someone discount the severity of his actions. The conversation seemed to shift, though, to comparing two separate sins and the attempt to add emotion to it as a means of discrediting the Christian understanding and belief in repentance.

I think people need to respect that they are welcome to disagree with Christian teaching and understanding, but going against it in the manner it has been seen lately is tantamount to promoting a belief system outside of Christianity, which isn't allowed.

In case you haven't already noticed, many Christians do not share your view of "sin."

 

[High Fidelity]

In case you haven't already noticed, many Christians do not share your view of "sin."

Yes, but many Christians also condone female ministers, drunkenness, lying and adultery.

I'm not responsible for their actions or opinions, misguided as they can be.

We aren't one and the same, even professing the same faith.

 

[Cearbhall]

I'm yet to see someone discount the severity of his actions.

http://latest.com/2015/05/an-attack...efends-duggars-says-josh-just-playing-doctor/

Not a great news source, obviously, but the point is the quotes. Here's the original post:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152464882098039

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, but many Christians also condone female ministers, drunkenness, lying and adultery.

I'm not responsible for their actions or opinions, misguided as they can be.

We aren't one and the same, even professing the same faith.

Yes, and many also pretend that same-sex marriage is as much of a moral failing as child molestation. But don't worry, we know not all Christians are like that.

 

[High Fidelity]

http://latest.com/2015/05/an-attack...efends-duggars-says-josh-just-playing-doctor/

Mhmm, disgusting. I meant here, I haven't really been watching the news on it.

It doesn't surprise me that people would defend it, for the same reasons I stated above.