Drinking a beer does not go against Bible

[Wunderlust]

But your words are just filler and they do not really prove anything.

No, I have consistently dealt with historical facts and instead of addressing it and showing how those facts are wrong, you are playing games.

The heart of the matter here on alcohol is a disregard of morality or God's goodness.

Your personal dislike for alcohol use does not give you license to rewrite history and scripture.

It's why you also most likely believe the Scriptures say that God told Hosea to marry a prostitute. You do not get it. There is nothing wrong with that concept to you because you believe God's Word says that, So it make everything alright - regardless of what you know to be good and right).

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Please get back on topic and address my posts as they pertain to the topic.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, I have consistently dealt with historical facts and instead of addressing it and showing how those facts are wrong, you are playing games.



Your personal dislike for alcohol use does not give you license to rewrite history and scripture.



Please get back on topic and address my posts as they pertain to the topic.

No. I am under no obligation to reply to the information within your posts if I find them to be irrelevant to the topic at hand.
If you want to engage me further, please answer the heart of the matter of this thread.
Explain God's goodness and or morality in light of alcohol for me.
Tell me how a drug (that is not a necessary requirement to live) which kills lives every several minutes is a wonderful gift from God.


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[ToBeLoved]

Yes, but when he, resurrected, ascended and speaking with authority from the throne room of Heaven, tells John to take dictation concerning the Seven Churches, he repeatedly states that men - specifically Christians, for he is speaking of Seven Churches - are judged by their deeds.

He says no less when he speaks of the separation at judgment of those who gave the poor man water and a meal, versus those who did not. When he says that as you treated them, you treated me, depart into the fire, he is referring to their deeds.

Likewise when he says that the Father will treat sinners who are unforgiving just as the ruler treated the unforgiving servant in his parable, Jesus again refers to deeds.

"Let him among you who is without sin cast the first stone" links the deeds of the would-be executioners to the ability to carry out the execution of another.

"You will be measured by the measure by which you measured."

Jesus is really rather repetitive, and specific, and quite concrete in what he asks. The concrete does transcend deeds, and accounts forgiveness and compassion as deeds. But he does not replace the judgment for deeds with judgment for something else.

It's Paul, particularly, who seems to suggest that - that's the way he is taken anyway by millions of Christians who quote Romans for this - deeds don't matter, only faith, which is to say belief, does.

But Jesus says "What good does it do you to say you follow me if you don't do what I say [keep my commandments]?" And Jesus spends time on earth, and also in the throne room of heaven, talking about deeds.

Which means that we are judged for our deeds, like he said over and over.

It shouldn't be controversial, but it is controversial, because lots of Christians really do like what Paul seems to say better than that.

You can't really square that circle - there is real distance between what James said and what Jesus said, and between what Paul said on the matter of deeds and what Jesus said.

Given that Jesus is Lord, and God said "Follow HIM", and he said that HE is "the way", it shouldn't be a fraught topic, but it is, and one that goes straight to the marrow of how one is to read the Scriptures, and what the relative authority of conflicting Scriptures are, and who is master.

I don't know if I really see your point as Jesus talks about the heart quite a bit. That is why God is the only perfect and just judge, because only He knows the heart of man.

Most people who bash Paul I have found don't know the scriptures all that well.

Why don't you give the exact verses that Jesus said versus the exact words that Paul said that conflict?

 

[ToBeLoved]

No. I am under no obligation to answer your questions if I find them to be irrelevant to the topic at hand.
If you want to engage me further, please answer the heart of the matter of this thread.
Explain God's goodness and or morality in light of alcohol for me.
Tell me how a drug (Which is not a necessary requirement to live) kills lives every several minutes is a wonderful gift from God.


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Are you talking about cars? lol, cars have only existed the last 80 years.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you talking about cars? lol, cars have only existed the last 80 years.

So God just like doesn't care about the past 80 years?
Well, I am sorry to inform you, but the fruits of evil are evil no matter the time period.
And the moral question will still remain (even if you walked over it and or swept it under the carpet).


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[Wunderlust]

No. I am under no obligation to reply to the information within your posts if I find them to be irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Jason, those posts were a response to claims you made in this topic about whether or not Jews drank alcohol and Jesus made wine. Everything was a response to claims you were making with historically accurate information.

They problem is you were making very blatantly false claims and you do not want to deal with it anymore. You then attempted to derail this thread.

I am guessing that within a few dozens or so posts, you will go right back to making those same claims over again to another poster.

I do not derive any pleasure from showing that a person is wrong. I do believe in standing up for the truth. If you want to argue that alcohol should be avoided, if you want to argue that it is not necessary today, I think that's a noble effort. There are a lot of reasons to encourage people not to drink. The problem is when you feel you need to rewrite history and scripture to achieve this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, those posts were a response to claims you made in this topic about whether or not Jews drank alcohol and Jesus made wine. Everything was a response to claims you were making with historically accurate information.

They problem is you were making very blatantly false claims and you do not want to deal with it anymore. You then attempted to derail this thread.

I am guessing that within a few dozens or so posts, you will go right back to making those same claims over again to another poster.

I do not derive any pleasure from showing that a person is wrong. I do believe in standing up for the truth. If you want to argue that alcohol should be avoided, if you want to argue that it is not necessary today, I think that's a noble effort. There are a lot of reasons to encourage people not to drink. The problem is when you feel you need to rewrite history and scripture to achieve this.

In your INTERPRETATION of Scripture and history you believe you are correct. I believe Scripture and history backs me up, too. We can talk about Scripture and cling to our own interpretations. We can even talk about history and or wine making and cling to our own favored knowledge in that area, too. But the key question (that will change your mind if you are open to the truth) is: Does your belief on alcohol stand up morally or line up with God's goodness? If so, then how? It's simple and yet complicated point that I know you cannot address.


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[Wunderlust]

In your INTERPRETATION of Scripture and history you believe you are correct. I believe Scripture and history backs me up, too. We can talk about Scripture and cling to our own interpretations. We can even talk about history and or wine making and cling to our own favored knowledge in that area, too. But the key question (that will change your mind if you are open to the truth) is: Does your belief on alcohol stand up morally or line up with God's goodness? If so, then how? It's simple and yet complicated point that I know you cannot address.


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Jason, that the Jewish people did not have access to year round grape juice is not an interpretation. It is a historical fact.
That humans did not have a method of preserving grape juice until the 19th Century is not interpretation. It's a historical fact.
That Jews could not use wine in their offering is not a historical fact, as Jews were not aware that yeast was present in wine. That Jews have wine in passover and consider leaven only yeast as it pertains to grain is a fact.
That alcohol has medical benefits is a fact.
That wine provided vitamin c, fact.
That grapes were not available year round to squeeze at any moment into grape juice is a historical fact.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, that the Jewish people did not have access to year round grape juice is not an interpretation. It is a historical fact.
That humans did not have a method of preserving grape juice until the 19th Century is not interpretation. It's a historical fact.
That Jews could not use wine in their offering is not a historical fact, as Jews were not aware that yeast was present in wine. That Jews have wine in passover and consider leaven only yeast as it pertains to grain is a fact.
That alcohol has medical benefits is a fact.
That wine provided vitamin c, fact.
That grapes were not available year round to squeeze at any moment into grape juice is a historical fact.

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[Wunderlust]

Okay, that's not a response.

Jason, that the Jewish people did not have access to year round grape juice is not an interpretation. It is a historical fact.

We can verify this today.

That humans did not have a method of preserving grape juice until the 19th Century is not interpretation. It's a historical fact.

We can verify this today.

That Jews could not use wine in their offering is not a historical fact, as Jews were not aware that yeast was present in wine. That Jews have wine in passover and consider leaven only yeast as it pertains to grain is a fact.

We can verify this today.

That alcohol has medical benefits is a fact.
That wine provided vitamin c, fact.

These are current facts.

That grapes were not available year round to squeeze at any moment into grape juice is a historical fact.

Again, we can verify this today.

Anything else you want to play?

 

[Wunderlust]

All the facts about grapes, alcohol and wine making are the same today.

You completely revised history, with total disregard for facts, to fit an agenda. Problem is, all those facts remain true today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In regards to History: Are you saying you have a time machine?
Is that how we are going to verify things?

As for wine making facts: I do not believe my views on wine making are in contradiction with Scripture.

But again, I ask you: How does morality line up with your belief on alcohol?


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[Wunderlust]

In regards to History: Are you saying you have a time machine?
Is that how we are going to verify things?
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Jason, everything I mentioned is verifiable today.

I have a feeling you are going to continue to play games. So which of those statements I made, to which you responded absurdly "are you saying you have a time machine" would require a time machine?

Pick any statement or statements and tell me which cannot be verified today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I mean, I just have a hard time imagining that something like this happened at the Wedding of Cana...




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[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, everything I mentioned is verifiable today.

I have a feeling you are going to continue to play games. So which of those statements I made, to which you responded absurdly "are you saying you have a time machine" would require a time machine?

Pick any statement or statements and tell me which cannot be verified today.

Playing games is not answering my question in regards to morality (Which is the heart of this issue).
History is not observational science or evidence that is fact.
History is based on what we believe what others have said.
It does not necessarily mean it is fact or 100% verifably true.

As for my having a sense of humor: I do not consider being funny in conflict with the truth. But you can believe whatever you want to believe.


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[Wunderlust]

Jason, you are simply rambling and avoiding.

Which of the statements I made cannot be verified by today? You mentioned a time machine.
Everything I have discussed in verifiable today.

WHICH OF THOSE STATEMENTS CANNOT BE VERIFIED TODAY?

 

[CaptainToad]

I mean, I just have a hard time imagining that something like this happened at the Wedding of Cana...




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Just btw, I believe there is a difference of behavior when wise people drink or people who generally behave like swine. So assuming the wedding at cana might have looked like this is in a way insulting.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just btw, I believe there is a difference of behavior when wise people drink or people who generally behave like swine. So assuming the wedding at cana might have looked like this is in a way insulting.

And I find your belief that Jesus would make intoxicating wine as insulting. For it paints Jesus in a light whereby He does not care about future generations who struggle with alcoholism. That is why I created the image.

Also, I do not consider a person who drinks as wise because it can lead them down the road to acloholism (Which can destroy not only their own life but the lives those around them). Wine back in the day was not like the wine of today. Wine back in the day was diluted by believers. It's why Paul says drink not only water but a little bit of wine (with it) for the infirmities of your stomach in Timothy. The wine of today was condemned in the Bible. While we have a liberty in Christ, our good should not be evil spoken of.


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[AlexDTX]

If it didn't matter what I did as a Christian in regards to my salvatilon, then I would just go back to living like an unbeliever.
For if God didn't really care in regards to my salvation in what I do, then why should I?
Fortunately, the Bible essentially says God does care in what we do in regards to our salvation.

For it is written...

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, ..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble." (James 4:6).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9).

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." (1 John 4:8).


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I don't think we are in disagreement, however, it sounds like you believe that works determine our salvation. Your statement: "If it didn't matter what I did as a Christian in regards to my salvatilon [sic], then I would just go back to living like an unbeliever", is an old and tired argument based in a works salvation mentality. Our salvation is based upon faith alone in the grace given us through the finished works of Jesus Christ. Those who have this hope in us purify themselves (1 John 3:3). Faith without works is dead (James 2:17) does not mean, of course, that the works create the faith, but rather that the faith creates the works.

I believe the consumption of alcohol is foolish, even for the moderate drinker, and I am a teetotaler myself. But that has nothing to do with our salvation, and if a believer wants participate in such consumption that is their choice in the freedom that Christ gives us. As Paul said, Happy is the man who does not condemn himself in the things that he allows (Rom. 14:22).

There is a difference between a child of God and a son of God. The child is saved, but is not a disciple. The son is a disciple who has learned to deny himself and to follow the leading of the Spirit.

 

[AlexDTX]

And I find your belief that Jesus would make intoxicating wine as insulting. For it paints Jesus in a light whereby He does not care about those who struggle with alcoholism. That is why I created the image.


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To say the wine at Cana was not alcohol is the same hermeneutic logical fallacy as to say Jesus was a sin bearer when the Bible says he became sin who knew no sin. It imposes your desire on the meaning of the text instead of accepting the plain meaning given. Jewish wine is still alcohol even if it is sickeningly sweet.