Doing everything the father does

[DeepWater]

Jesus was more than just a person who obeyed the laws of God. Jesus did everything he saw the father doing.

Is it possible for Christians to do the same?

If you learn to walk in love toward God and toward people, then your behavior will be controlled in such a way that it pleases God.
Walking in love, controls your lusts and your attitude and your focus.
These 3 things, in you, fight your Christianity, and walking in love is the way you establish control over yourself.
See, when you walk in love, you are not going to do things that would offend God or hurt others.

Here is an example.
Say you are in a Gym, and you notice a pretty girl who notices you.
So, 2 months of this and you find that you want more from her then just "hi and bye".
But you NOTICED today, for the first time, that she has on a wedding ring.
Instantly your love walk directs you to think...."if i were to get to know her intimately, then this destroys her marriage and hurts her, and her husband, and her family, and in fact their entire LIVES".
So, your "love walk", corrects your lust and you dont do it.
= that is how you operate in the Faith, using your Love walk to stop yourself from creating harm and chaos in your life and in the lives of others.

See when you walk in love, you are always filtering your behavior by asking yourself......"if i do this, then what does is CAUSE"......and THAT is how you discipline your behavior using your love walk as a means to control yourself, and by doing that, so many hurtful things will not be caused by you.

 

[christopheralan88]

Jesus was more than just a person who obeyed the laws of God. Jesus did everything he saw the father doing.

Is it possible for Christians to do the same?

The biggest thing that needs to be understood is what Yahoshua (Jesus) did. Per Matthew 5:17-19 He did not come to abolish Torah (the Law) but to fulfill it. The Greek word that translates to "fulfill" means to "fully/correctly teach/preach". When we understand that word, 5:18-19 make complete sense. Yahoshua was constantly confronting the Pharisees because they promoted their tradition (the Talmud mostly) as being equal to Torah. Yahoshua came to teach Torah correctly by word and example and to die for our sins as a perfect sacrifice.

Yohoshua could not have done away with one bit of Torah or He would have been 1) a hypocrite per Matthew 5:18-19 and 2) a false prophet worthy of death per Deut 13:1-4.

That being said, the works that Yahoshua does are following Torah.

Can we follow Torah today? Yes.

Is it hard? YHWH says it's not (Deut 30:11 and 1 John 5:3). Will we do it perfectly? Probably not, but that's not Torah's fault - its declared perfect in Psalm 19:7 - so it's our fault that we don't follow Torah. However, we should be getting better and better at following Torah (what good father would not help and enable his children to obey him if they seek him earnestly and love his commands?).

Do we find our salvation in following Torah? Absolutely not.

Is following Torah the evidence of our salvation? Yes per Deut 30:15-16, Deut 30:19-20, John 14:23, John 14:15, John 14:21, and James 2:17-26.

 

[christopheralan88]

Hi, I love your honesty and humility. "God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble." There is no need for you to worry about what God might ask you to do at some point in the future. If/when He asks something of you, He will give you the tools you need to do it. Yes, it might still be a little scary, but you will have the grace and courage to do what He asks.

Jesus said that He did only what He saw the Father doing. I believe our task, if we want to be like Him, is to do our best to "see" what He is doing. That involves spending time with Him, seeking to know Him, learning to hear Him speak, reading Scripture, being willing to wait until we have an answer. His desire is to make Himself known to us, so if we are willing to give Him the opportunity, He will meet us more than halfway.

I am sure that you will be blessed on your journey.

I would add how do we give Him the opportunity to make Himself known to us? The answer is in John 14:21..."Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

So, if we love him, He will show (some other translations use "reveal" or "manifest") Himself to us. How do we love him? By keeping his commands. That sounds a lot like Deut 30:15-16, Deut 30:19-20, John 14:23, John 14:15, John 14:21, and James 2:17-26.

So, the big question is "what are His commands?". It's Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible or The Law)

Consider:
Malachi 3:6....YHWH does not change.
Psalm 19:7....Torah is perfect.
Deuteronomy 4:2...do not add to or take away from Torah.
Deuteronomy 13:1-4...if anyone comes performing signs and wonders and then they say to go worship/follow other gods that you have not known - do not follow them; you must fear YHWH and obey his commands (Torah), you must serve Him and hold fast to Him. (Thus, who you obey is who you serve/worship/follow. If you follow Torah, you serve/worship/follow YHWH)
Matthew 5:17-19...Yahoshua (Jesus) did not come to abolish Torah, but to fulfill (fully/correctly preach/teach) it. Not one jot or tittle of Torah will pass until heaven and earth pass away. Anyone who teaches that one bit of Torah is done away with is least in the kingdom. Anyone who teaches and does all the Torah is the greatest in the kingdom.

 

[christopheralan88]

Hi Jesse

scripture also say Jesus was the only one who ever walked the earth who is perfect

God bless

Where does it say this in the Bible? What do you make of Genesis 6:9, Job 1:1, Genesis 17:1? You can look up the meaning of the Hebrew words at blueletterbible.org - not all translations use the english word "perfect", but the Hebrew word definitely means "perfect/complete".

It's quite possible I don't understand these verses, but just something to consider.

 

[shelley1952]

Jesus was more than just a person who obeyed the laws of God. Jesus did everything he saw the father doing.
Is it possible for Christians to do the same?

Absolutely......Read the book of Acts.... the disciples in the book of Acts knew who they were, they knew what was expected of them and most of all they wanted to do the will of the Father. In the book of Acts they didnt have church as we have it now days, they didnt just go to church on Sun. and maybe wed., sing a few songs for a specified length of time then take up an offering then preach for a specified length of time, with the people just sitting there each week just looking at each other, oh maybe they might raise their hands a time or two or say amen (some dont even do that) maybe sing another song or two and go home and do nothing in-between those days. No God used them to preform sign, wonders and miracles, some people were even healed just by Peters shadow.
Now some will say that God quit doing that when the last original disciple passed away but I tried to find in the Bible where it said God intended that signs, wonders and miracles by the hands of the disciples was suppose to end with the death of the last original 11 disciples. I just cant find it. Matter of fact, I think the church was suppose to continue just as the church did in the book of Acts. But because of Constantine and a certain church the devil got a foothold and almost destroyed the church but little by little God is using different things, people, church denominations to bring His will about but as of right no certain church or denomination has put all things back together but we are getting there quickly now.

Acts 1: 4 While being together and eating with them, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Of which,” He said, “you have heard Me speak. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized and empowered and united with the Holy Spirit, not long from now.”
Acts 1: 8 But you will receive power and ability when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you will be My witnesses [to tell people about Me] both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the ends of the earth.”

It's also a very scary Road.
God may ask me to give up my life physically for someone else. And I am afraid to die.

Humm, I am not sure I understand that. As far as I am concerned if I lose my life for the Kingdom then they are just sending me to heaven, thats better than being here especially the way it is now and whats coming to the earth in the future.. Oh yes, send me home to see the Lord where is no more sickness and no more death. Why on earth are you afraid to die ? I would say you havent taken time to cultivate a close relationship with the Lord which until you do you are going to be afraid of everything and thats a form of torture, well it is to me. A lot of people have already given their lives for Christ doing the will of our Father. I expect you nor I are any better than they were.
When I became a christian I found it exciting, it has been a wonderful journey so far. Yes there has been some hard times but the Lord has gotten me through them. I think I have seen more people on these forums that call themselves christian that are depressed, and screwed up than I have seen anywhere since I have been a believer and thats saying something. I taught for a while at a womens shelter where I talked with a lot of people that were messed up. I guess I just dont understand why because when I became a believer my life changed a lot instantly then as I started to get to know Jesus it changed whole lot more.

Iamanobody as I know you have been told before how to get to know the Lord, no body else can do that for you, it is up to each one of us to decide what kind of relationship we are going to have with the Lord, but the better you get to know Him the better things will go for you.
God bless you and may He help you find Him.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Joh 1412) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
(14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

[Nathan Rottier]

Yes. If you want to do it like Jesus did, you will need to be seriously devoted to God (like Jesus was) for years. It is an extremely hard road. There are lighter versions of the same thing, though.

Why would you want something lighter? are we not called to follow and be as much christ-like as possible. I think the real question turns into am i surrendering to my flesh and living a life led by the spirit. That Jesus promised would come and fill us and be a greater counselor and adviser then he was.

 

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

Yes that is what Jesus said.

My faith is very weak.

actually, you have the same 'mustard-seed-sized' measure of faith as everyone else (Rom 12:3), and it's enough to move mountains (Mat 17:20) - the variable is unbelief, not faith - and we all struggle with unbelief, so don't allow the devil to condemn you over this. 'little faith' is all you need to walk on water (Mat 14:31); unless you get distracted from what God has said (Mat 14:30) and shift your focus to what your 5 senses and the unbelieving world is saying. faith becomes effective by hearing and hearing the word of God (Rom 10:16,17); unbelief becomes effective by hearing and hearing what disagrees with the word of God. take the area of healing for example; most people are far more knowledgeable of the specifics of the sickness that the devil wants them to accept than the scriptures on healing that will deliver them from that sickness. they get a diagnosis from the doctor, accept it, profess in faith in the medical industry that they have whatever sickness the doctor tells them they have, spend hours researching it and the drugs prescribed to fight it's symptoms, then spend a few minutes begging God to do something about it; you have to give God's word equal time at least just to overcome the unbelief that the medical industry pumps into you, much less the 'report' of your body that says it's sick. unbelief comes from focusing on things that disagree with the word of God; so to reduce unbelief, you must shift your focus to God's words of goodness toward you rather than the badness that your 5 senses and the unbelieving world report.

 

[christopheralan88]

Yes. If you want to do it like Jesus did, you will need to be seriously devoted to God (like Jesus was) for years. It is an extremely hard road. There are lighter versions of the same thing, though.

Being devoted to YHWH means following His Torah. Deut 30:11 and 1 John 5:3 both say it is not burdensome. I've been walking in Torah for about 6 months now and can say it's actually quite freeing from all the man-made doctrine that I encountered in mainstream Christianity. John 8:31-32 makes way more sense to me now:

"To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.'"

This lines up with Psalm 119:45:

"I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts."

The freedom is from man's doctrine that is against Torah (the commands of YHWH) and/or are elevated to the status of YHWH's commands.

 

[Greg J.]

Why would you want something lighter? are we not called to follow and be as much christ-like as possible. I think the real question turns into am i surrendering to my flesh and living a life led by the spirit. That Jesus promised would come and fill us and be a greater counselor and adviser then he was.

It can be a result of long-term torture and/or lack of faith.

Being devoted to YHWH means following His Torah. Deut 30:11 and 1 John 5:3 both say it is not burdensome. I've been walking in Torah for about 6 months now and can say it's actually quite freeing from all the man-made doctrine that I encountered in mainstream Christianity. John 8:31-32 makes way more sense to me now:

"To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.'"

This lines up with Psalm 119:45:

"I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts."

The freedom is from man's doctrine that is against Torah (the commands of YHWH) and/or are elevated to the status of YHWH's commands.

Jesus' teaching was contrary to the Torah/Tanakh in many ways. Being devoted to God does not mean keeping the Law or OT commands (and it never did). Many of the Jews could not hear Jesus' voice because they thought keeping the OT commands was what pleased God, but that's not what pleased God (Hosea 6:6, Habakkuk 2:4). It means trusting and loving God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength—which is something unattainable by human effort. Only God can change the heart, and trusting and loving him is something only God grants. Our job is to abide in Jesus.

God's OT commands dictate actions, but in Christ we have already successfully kept all of those commands for all time. The Law is a source of wisdom and knowing what God is like; now we can turn our attention to loving the living Jesus. What loving Jesus means is revealed in the NT, but even then we are not in bondage to God's commands in the NT. By choice we are servants and children of God with the help of the Holy Spirit. The Christian life (and all life) was never meant to be lived apart from the Holy Spirit.

It's not that obeying the moral commands of God in the OT is bad; it is that having that focus hurts the integration into our hearts of the fact that we've already succeeded in keeping all those commands.

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

Being devoted to YHWH means following His Torah. Deut 30:11 and 1 John 5:3 both say it is not burdensome. I've been walking in Torah for about 6 months now and can say it's actually quite freeing from all the man-made doctrine that I encountered in mainstream Christianity. John 8:31-32 makes way more sense to me now:

"To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.'"

This lines up with Psalm 119:45:

"I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts."

The freedom is from man's doctrine that is against Torah (the commands of YHWH) and/or are elevated to the status of YHWH's commands.

Interesting

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

If you learn to walk in love toward God and toward people, then your behavior will be controlled in such a way that it pleases God.
Walking in love, controls your lusts and your attitude and your focus.
These 3 things, in you, fight your Christianity, and walking in love is the way you establish control over yourself.
See, when you walk in love, you are not going to do things that would offend God or hurt others.

Here is an example.
Say you are in a Gym, and you notice a pretty girl who notices you.
So, 2 months of this and you find that you want more from her then just "hi and bye".
But you NOTICED today, for the first time, that she has on a wedding ring.
Instantly your love walk directs you to think...."if i were to get to know her intimately, then this destroys her marriage and hurts her, and her husband, and her family, and in fact their entire LIVES".
So, your "love walk", corrects your lust and you dont do it.
= that is how you operate in the Faith, using your Love walk to stop yourself from creating harm and chaos in your life and in the lives of others.

See when you walk in love, you are always filtering your behavior by asking yourself......"if i do this, then what does is CAUSE"......and THAT is how you discipline your behavior using your love walk as a means to control yourself, and by doing that, so many hurtful things will not be caused by you.

Thank you

This is probably something I needed to hear.

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

Yes.
Jesus was obedient but also knew he His Father loved him so he wasnt just going through the motions. He wanted to be like his dad.

I like this.

Thank you

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

It's key to remember our abilities come through the HS of God when we try to come to answers abt tbis sort of thing. ... And the will of God and the plan of God is dominant over our desires. A time of visual miracles served a purpose and we could say we are not in that time any longer but watch to see a time of visual miracles coming again. Being as Christ is impossible but a goal. Being like Him... Similar, is achievable through the HS. He is our example of perfection. But we are not part of the trilogy. But perhaps like a ray of sun is like the sun but not the sun, we can be like Him.

Thank you for your response.

However, I still believe in miracles. But is possible I could have misunderstand you.

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

Hi, I love your honesty and humility. "God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble." There is no need for you to worry about what God might ask you to do at some point in the future. If/when He asks something of you, He will give you the tools you need to do it. Yes, it might still be a little scary, but you will have the grace and courage to do what He asks.

Jesus said that He did only what He saw the Father doing. I believe our task, if we want to be like Him, is to do our best to "see" what He is doing. That involves spending time with Him, seeking to know Him, learning to hear Him speak, reading Scripture, being willing to wait until we have an answer. His desire is to make Himself known to us, so if we are willing to give Him the opportunity, He will meet us more than halfway.

I am sure that you will be blessed on your journey.

Thank you and God bless you.

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

I would add how do we give Him the opportunity to make Himself known to us? The answer is in John 14:21..."Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

So, if we love him, He will show (some other translations use "reveal" or "manifest") Himself to us. How do we love him? By keeping his commands. That sounds a lot like Deut 30:15-16, Deut 30:19-20, John 14:23, John 14:15, John 14:21, and James 2:17-26.

So, the big question is "what are His commands?". It's Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible or The Law)

Consider:
Malachi 3:6....YHWH does not change.
Psalm 19:7....Torah is perfect.
Deuteronomy 4:2...do not add to or take away from Torah.
Deuteronomy 13:1-4...if anyone comes performing signs and wonders and then they say to go worship/follow other gods that you have not known - do not follow them; you must fear YHWH and obey his commands (Torah), you must serve Him and hold fast to Him. (Thus, who you obey is who you serve/worship/follow. If you follow Torah, you serve/worship/follow YHWH)
Matthew 5:17-19...Yahoshua (Jesus) did not come to abolish Torah, but to fulfill (fully/correctly preach/teach) it. Not one jot or tittle of Torah will pass until heaven and earth pass away. Anyone who teaches that one bit of Torah is done away with is least in the kingdom. Anyone who teaches and does all the Torah is the greatest in the kingdom.

Got ya.

The Tora is something I have never studied.

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

actually, you have the same 'mustard-seed-sized' measure of faith as everyone else (Rom 12:3), and it's enough to move mountains (Mat 17:20) - the variable is unbelief, not faith - and we all struggle with unbelief, so don't allow the devil to condemn you over this. 'little faith' is all you need to walk on water (Mat 14:31); unless you get distracted from what God has said (Mat 14:30) and shift your focus to what your 5 senses and the unbelieving world is saying. faith becomes effective by hearing and hearing the word of God (Rom 10:16,17); unbelief becomes effective by hearing and hearing what disagrees with the word of God. take the area of healing for example; most people are far more knowledgeable of the specifics of the sickness that the devil wants them to accept than the scriptures on healing that will deliver them from that sickness. they get a diagnosis from the doctor, accept it, profess in faith in the medical industry that they have whatever sickness the doctor tells them they have, spend hours researching it and the drugs prescribed to fight it's symptoms, then spend a few minutes begging God to do something about it; you have to give God's word equal time at least just to overcome the unbelief that the medical industry pumps into you, much less the 'report' of your body that says it's sick. unbelief comes from focusing on things that disagree with the word of God; so to reduce unbelief, you must shift your focus to God's words of goodness toward you rather than the badness that your 5 senses and the unbelieving world report.

Thank you

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

Absolutely......Read the book of Acts.... the disciples in the book of Acts knew who they were, they knew what was expected of them and most of all they wanted to do the will of the Father. In the book of Acts they didnt have church as we have it now days, they didnt just go to church on Sun. and maybe wed., sing a few songs for a specified length of time then take up an offering then preach for a specified length of time, with the people just sitting there each week just looking at each other, oh maybe they might raise their hands a time or two or say amen (some dont even do that) maybe sing another song or two and go home and do nothing in-between those days. No God used them to preform sign, wonders and miracles, some people were even healed just by Peters shadow.
Now some will say that God quit doing that when the last original disciple passed away but I tried to find in the Bible where it said God intended that signs, wonders and miracles by the hands of the disciples was suppose to end with the death of the last original 11 disciples. I just cant find it. Matter of fact, I think the church was suppose to continue just as the church did in the book of Acts. But because of Constantine and a certain church the devil got a foothold and almost destroyed the church but little by little God is using different things, people, church denominations to bring His will about but as of right no certain church or denomination has put all things back together but we are getting there quickly now.

Acts 1: 4 While being together and eating with them, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Of which,” He said, “you have heard Me speak. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized and empowered and united with the Holy Spirit, not long from now.”
Acts 1: 8 But you will receive power and ability when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you will be My witnesses [to tell people about Me] both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the ends of the earth.”



Humm, I am not sure I understand that. As far as I am concerned if I lose my life for the Kingdom then they are just sending me to heaven, thats better than being here especially the way it is now and whats coming to the earth in the future.. Oh yes, send me home to see the Lord where is no more sickness and no more death. Why on earth are you afraid to die ? I would say you havent taken time to cultivate a close relationship with the Lord which until you do you are going to be afraid of everything and thats a form of torture, well it is to me. A lot of people have already given their lives for Christ doing the will of our Father. I expect you nor I are any better than they were.
When I became a christian I found it exciting, it has been a wonderful journey so far. Yes there has been some hard times but the Lord has gotten me through them. I think I have seen more people on these forums that call themselves christian that are depressed, and screwed up than I have seen anywhere since I have been a believer and thats saying something. I taught for a while at a womens shelter where I talked with a lot of people that were messed up. I guess I just dont understand why because when I became a believer my life changed a lot instantly then as I started to get to know Jesus it changed whole lot more.

Iamanobody as I know you have been told before how to get to know the Lord, no body else can do that for you, it is up to each one of us to decide what kind of relationship we are going to have with the Lord, but the better you get to know Him the better things will go for you.
God bless you and may He help you find Him.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Joh 1412) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
(14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

I would love to do the same works Jesus did. My fear is that if God used in a mighty way, I am afraid I will become arrogant.

Now, I am not talking about signs and wonders. But I mean leading people to Jesus in a powerful way. I have been told by project that God wants to use me in a powerful way by people in the church.

But you what I did? I left the church. But I do want to do his will. But I am terrified.

Have you ever wanted to do something but you were afraid to do it? For example, so bad you wanted to go skydiving, but you just could not get out of that plane. I am afraid of losing myself.

But I will continue to seek him.

 

[christopheralan88]

It can be a result of long-term torture and/or lack of faith.

Jesus' teaching was contrary to the Torah/Tanakh in many ways. Being devoted to God does not mean keeping the Law or OT commands (and it never did). Many of the Jews could not hear Jesus' voice because they thought keeping the OT commands was what pleased God, but that's not what pleased God (Hosea 6:6, Habakkuk 2:4). It means trusting and loving God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength—which is something unattainable by human effort. Only God can change the heart, and trusting and loving him is something only God grants. Our job is to abide in Jesus.

God's OT commands dictate actions, but in Christ we have already successfully kept all of those commands for all time. The Law is a source of wisdom and knowing what God is like; now we can turn our attention to loving the living Jesus. What loving Jesus means is revealed in the NT, but even then we are not in bondage to God's commands in the NT. By choice we are servants and children of God with the help of the Holy Spirit. The Christian life (and all life) was never meant to be lived apart from the Holy Spirit.

It's not that obeying the moral commands of God in the OT is bad; it is that having that focus hurts the integration into our hearts of the fact that we've already succeeded in keeping all those commands.

There's a lot that you said here that I would like to debate, but I'll focus on just one part for now. You said that Jesus' teaching was contrary to Torah/Tanakh in many ways. Can you give me an example?

Some other things to consider:

If He did teach contrary to Torah/Tanakh how is He not a false prophet per Deuteronomy 13:1-4? Is Jesus a hypocrite per Matthew 5:17-19 when He says He didn't come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it ("fulfill" means to "fully/correctly preach/teach" per this link: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4137&t=NKJV).

Lastly, Jesus said he cannot say anything other than what the Father says (John 5:19). So, if the Father is speaking through Jesus and YHWH said not to add to or take away from Torah (Deuteronomy 4:2) and He says he doesn't change (Malachi 3:6), then how is YHWH changing his mind and taking away from Torah?

 

[christopheralan88]

Got ya.

The Tora is something I have never studied.

If you just get a surface level understanding of it and the basic history of Israel and Yahoshua's (Jesus) time, the Bible makes so much more sense.

It's worth noting too what Peter says in 2 Peter 3:15-17:

"...our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things that are difficult to understand, which UNTAUGHT and UNSTABLE people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand beware so that you do not fall from your steadfastness, being led away with the error of the LAWLESS (Greek word for "lawless" is asthesmos which means one who breaks the law: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G113&t=NKJV)"

All that to say, Peter warns us about people that will misunderstand, distort, or twist Paul to promote lawlessness (Torahlessness). Torahlessness isn't necessarily no Torah, it can just mean less Torah. So, the big question is what are these people who distort Paul UNTAUGHT and UNSTABLE in? Well, if it leads to Torahlessness, they must not be learned or stable in Torah. This makes sense because Paul was constantly be misunderstood as teaching against Torah in his own time by Jews who understood far more Torah than we do today (even though they added their own commands to it, which is the Talmud). How much less will we understand Paul today if we don't know any Torah???

If you want a good resource to get started learning Torah, I'd suggest 119 Ministries - although your own Bible and the Spirit are your authority, not them (which they will constantly remind you ).

http://www.119ministries.com/

 

[Greg J.]

Got ya.

The Tora is something I have never studied.

If you are working on getting to know Jesus, you probably shouldn't. The Torah is a reference to the Tanakh and commentary by Rabbis (religion: Judaism) which is interpretation by those that denied Christ. The Tanakh is a name given to what we would call the first 5 books of the Old Testament.

There's a lot that you said here that I would like to debate, but I'll focus on just one part for now. You said that Jesus' teaching was contrary to Torah/Tanakh in many ways. Can you give me an example?

Some other things to consider:

If He did teach contrary to Torah/Tanakh how is He not a false prophet per Deuteronomy 13:1-4? Is Jesus a hypocrite per Matthew 5:17-19 when He says He didn't come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it ("fulfill" means to "fully/correctly preach/teach" per this link: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4137&t=NKJV).

Lastly, Jesus said he cannot say anything other than what the Father says (John 5:19). So, if the Father is speaking through Jesus and YHWH said not to add to or take away from Torah (Deuteronomy 4:2) and He says he doesn't change (Malachi 3:6), then how is YHWH changing his mind and taking away from Torah?

Jesus' teaching was contrary to the Torah/Tanakh as it was understood by people in Scripture, not as Christians would interpret it today (I hope. e.g., observing the Sabbath on Sunday). However, one explicit example is Jesus explains that it was right for David to break the Law in Matthew 12:1-8.

Jesus (and Paul) frequently taught that obedience to God meant keeping the spirit of the Law, not keeping it literally (2 Corinthians 3:6). (Keeping the spirit of the Law is impossible for a fallen human without God's grace.)

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:23-24, 1984 NIV)

We can't debate in this forum. You can raise issues elsewhere, though. It would be better to get responses by others, anyway.