Doing everything the father does

[shelley1952]

Interesting

NO, NO, NO, watch what you are doing, we are covenant people of the New Covenant. As a New Covenant person you live by faith in Jesus Christ and the fact He paid the price for our sins. The O.T. laws couldnt save anyone. God gave them the commandments to show them their sin then they had to sacrifice certain animals for certain sins. Yes we still go by the 10 commandments for God has now put them in our hearts. The Sabbath day rest was a shadow and a type. In Christ the type is done away. In Israel’s Sabbath they did not have to prepare anything but only rest at home and enjoy Gods provision. This is a type of Christ in that He did the work for us and we enter into His rest. Instead of the continuing sacrifices of animals, he became “ the lamb of God” offered for the sin of the world only once. Instead of going to a high priest at the temple to represent us, we have the great high priest who entered the Holy place once and for all.
Just be careful. A friend of mine has gotten into what is called Messianic Jews so far that they believe that if you dont keep the Sabbath on Sat. or keep the feasts you will go to hell, which is not Biblical. It has caused a big stretch in our friendship.

 

[christopheralan88]

If you are working on getting to know Jesus, you probably shouldn't. The Torah is a reference to the Tanakh and commentary by Rabbis (religion: Judaism) which is interpretation by those that denied Christ. The Tanakh is a name given to what we would call the first 5 books of the Old Testament.

Jesus' teaching was contrary to the Torah/Tanakh as it was understood by people in Scripture, not as Christians would interpret it today (I hope. e.g., observing the Sabbath on Sunday). However, one explicit example is Jesus explains that it was right for David to break the Law in Matthew 12:1-8.

Jesus (and Paul) frequently taught that obedience to God meant keeping the spirit of the Law, not keeping it literally (2 Corinthians 3:6). (Keeping the spirit of the Law is impossible for a fallen human without God's grace.)

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:23-24, 1984 NIV)

We can't debate in this forum. You can raise issues elsewhere, though. It would be better to get responses by others, anyway.

Hey Greg,

I think you've got Torah, Tanakh, and Talmud mixed up.

TORAH = first 5 books of the Bible

TANAKH = what mainstream Christianity calls the Old Testament (Ta = Torah (Teaching); Na = Neviim (Prophets); Kh = Ketuvim (Writings))

TALMUD = this is the Jewish tradition followed by the Pharisees and Jews of Yahoshua/Jesus' time and by many of the Orthodox Jews today. This is NOT what I am recommending IAMANOBODY2015 study.

Interesting...when I've spoken to other people about this, Matthew 12:1-8 hasn't been brought up. I'll read up on it more, but I want to point out that when the Pharisees have an issue with Yahoshua's (Jesus) disciples plucking grain, it was because that was against their tradition (Talmud), not Torah. They said it was unlawful for His disciples to do this, because they viewed their tradition as being equivalent or a natural extension of Torah (the Law). In doing some preliminary research I came across this article (http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/lcg/lcn/lcn-issue.cgi?category=LivingChurchNews&item=1366750920). It's something to consider.

If Yahoshua/Jesus did preach that we don't have to follow the Torah literally - meaning that some part of it is done away with - then wouldn't He be a false prophet per Deuteronomy 13:1-4?

Regarding Corinthians 3 and Galatians 3, I'll ask you this: What are the people in 2 Peter 3:15-17 unlearned and unstable in? Whatever it is they're unlearned and unstable in it leads them to misunderstand Paul to be preaching lawlessness per those verses. I believe they're not learned and stable in Torah (the Law/first 5 books of the Bible); which means per Peter if we're not learned and stable in Torah we aren't qualified to quote Paul because we will very likely misunderstand him to be saying Torah is done away with. I don't feel learned or stable in Torah, so I don't feel that I'm qualified to quote or interpret Paul.

 

[Greg J.]

Thanks for pointing that out. I did mis-remember Tanakh. I meant Pentateuch. However, Pentateuch has connotations and I should have just said the first five books of the Bible.

However, while Torah can refer to different things, my understanding is that it usually refers to the first 5 books of the Bible and commentary in the (Jewish) rabbinic tradition, which I think is a bad thing to direct someone to in the Christian Advice forum.

The fact that Jesus is using the David example (and explains it) is what matters in this context, not what he was using it to rebuke.

But as I said, start another thread if you want to discuss this, perhaps in one of the theology forums.

 

[trinichristiannudist]

Jeseverything that God expects of us. Even PAUL the apostle made it clear in ROMANS 7:23 & 24," but i see another law in my members,warring against the law of my MIND, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Oh, wretched man that i am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" So it is near to impossible to reach such a high standard. But Paul still offers hope when he says in ROMANS 8: 1-5," There is now no CONDEMNATION tothem who WALK in CHRIST JESUS,who walk not after the flesh, but after the SPIRIT. For the LAW of the Spirit of life inCHRIST JESUS hath made me FREE from the LAW of SIN and DEATH. For what the LAW could not do, in that it wad weak through the flesh, God eending his own son, in the likenesd of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, that the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law might fulfilled in US who walj NOT AFTER THE FLESH but AFTER THE SPIRIT." So we may never be able to do as GOD does, but with HOLY SPIRIT'S help & POWER, we can be able to do the things that GOD desires of us as long as we completely put out trust in him.more than just a person who obeyed the laws of God. Jesus did everything he saw the father doing.

Is it possible for Christians to do the same?

You may not agree with my replybut it is quite hard to do everyt

 

[shelley1952]

You may not agree with my replybut it is quite hard to do everyt

As I was reading, I was trying to find your reply you said you were referencing to IAMANOBODY2015, which I cant find but meantime I took notice of your name...... trini.....christian........nudist ?? Ah, um, hum, I am a bit speechless, lol, thats hard for anyone to cause in me ,lol, can you enlighten me a bit on your name ?? lol

 

[IAMANOBODY2015]

NO, NO, NO, watch what you are doing, we are covenant people of the New Covenant. As a New Covenant person you live by faith in Jesus Christ and the fact He paid the price for our sins. The O.T. laws couldnt save anyone. God gave them the commandments to show them their sin then they had to sacrifice certain animals for certain sins. Yes we still go by the 10 commandments for God has now put them in our hearts. The Sabbath day rest was a shadow and a type. In Christ the type is done away. In Israel’s Sabbath they did not have to prepare anything but only rest at home and enjoy Gods provision. This is a type of Christ in that He did the work for us and we enter into His rest. Instead of the continuing sacrifices of animals, he became “ the lamb of God” offered for the sin of the world only once. Instead of going to a high priest at the temple to represent us, we have the great high priest who entered the Holy place once and for all.
Just be careful. A friend of mine has gotten into what is called Messianic Jews so far that they believe that if you dont keep the Sabbath on Sat. or keep the feasts you will go to hell, which is not Biblical. It has caused a big stretch in our friendship.

Thank you for explaining that to me.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

However, while Torah can refer to different things, my understanding is that it usually refers to the first 5 books of the Bible and commentary in the (Jewish) rabbinic tradition, which I think is a bad thing to direct someone to in the Christian Advice forum.

What God says about TORAH is very important, OT and NT.

Here's a good reference that most people miss in Scripture (actually a lot of references) concerning TORAH since it is hardly ever translated:

(seeing each occasion of TORAH is very helpful and is necessary to understand it unless God the Father reveals it Himself (which actually is needed and He is good at doing also !) )
(sometimes the "links" don't work - in that case just go to biblegateway dot com and search for TORAH in the CJB)

www . biblegateway . com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=torah& qs_version=CJB

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[shelley1952]

Hey Shelly,

I'm sorry this is upsetting to you. That's not my intention and I apologize it's having that effect. That said, I would still like to ask a few questions.

I'm not going to be able to reply to all of this for brevity's sake, but here are just a couple things I'd like to say:

You started your reply by saying that the Torah is NOT done away with, but then you say that there there are dispensations and that not keeping the Sabbath, eating pork, etc. is NOT a sin. Torah defines what sin is. If not keeping the Sabbath and eating pork are not sins, then you're implying that some part of Torah is done away with.

I would like to clarify that Torah is not a burden. It is only described as life, blessings, light, the way of the wise, truth, freedom and NOT burdensome (Psalm 119 has a lot of good stuff on this). So, when I say that following Torah is doing the Father's will, I am not trying to put you under any yoke, rules, or religion.

Regarding the Acts 15 "Jerusalem Council", most people in mainstream Christian churches don't understand what that chapter is saying because they don't understand 1) basic Pharisee beliefs and 2) basic Torah. I've attached a pdf on what I've found is going on in this chapter. It's been very, very, very eye-opening to me and changes so much. Please read it.

I also happen to have done some research on the verses you mentioned from Matthew 5. I've attached a pdf if you would like to read that as well.

Lastly, when quoting Paul, please think about what is said in 2 Peter 3:15-17: "...our dear brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things THAT ARE HARD TO UNDERSTAND, which IGNORANT and UNSTABLE people DISTORT, as they do the other Scriptures to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away BY THE ERROR OF THE LAWLESS and fall from your secure position".

If Peter says these ignorant/unlearned and unstable people distort Paul's letters and, in doing so, lead themselves and others to lawlessness, then the big question is what are they ignorant/unlearned and unstable in? If it leads to lawlessness, then I would suggest they are ignorant/unlearned and unstable in the Law (Torah). That's why I won't touch Paul's letters right now because I don't feel learned or stable in Torah.

I am sorry, right now I dont have it in me to even read your post. I do not wish to argue with anyone. I trust my Lord and not man anyway, as Jesus said, He knew what was in man. Peace.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I haven't caught up on all the responses but I'd say we will never obtain perfection like Jesus while in these bodies. Even Jesus was tempted to sin while on earth (but He never did obviously). So if he was tempted then we will not achieve perfection. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try though. Even elderly Christians will tell you they are still flawed and growing in Christ. Though many of us don't try crazy hard. I can admit to that. I play games, watch movies...etc. I know I won't go to hell, but I also know I won't be getting great rewards either in heaven. The pull of the world is hard to avoid. Especially in an age of technology where everything we desire is on a screen more then in our bibles. >.< Well unless your bible is on the screen of course lol.