Does the Bible Support or Oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

[SinnerInTheHands]

However Jesus told us to repent for the remission of sin. If Jesus atoned for sins on the cross, it did not remove the penalty of sin.

The problem herein is that Jesus never said to "repent for the remission of sin."

If you are quoting Luke 24:46-47, the verses are as follows:

Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. [Luke 24:46-47]​

With the Greek as:

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, ὅτι οὕτως γέγραπται, παθεῖν τὸν Χριστὸν, καὶ ἀναστῆναι ἐκ νεκρῶν τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ: καὶ κηρυχθῆναι ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι αὐτοῦ μετάνοιαν εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, ἀρξάμενοι ἀπὸ Ἰερουσαλήμ. ​

Or if you don't speak Greek, it literally translates as [correlate the commas to see individual clauses]:

and said to them, thus it has been written, was to suffer the Christ, and to rise out from dead the third day: and to be proclaimed in the name of Him repentance and forgiveness of sins, to all nations having begun at Jerusalem.
​

It's the use of εἰς where we run into problems, as μετάνοιαν εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν is the phrase in question. Though εἰς can be translated as for, most translate it as and.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

So NF, are you going to die a physical death, even though Jesus atoned for that?

Called it.

Now he's probably gonna argue that Jesus didn't atone for sin since everyone dies anyways. Then he's gonna try and argue that there isn't a hell.

 

[EmSw]

The problem herein is that Jesus never said to "repent for the remission of sin."

If you are quoting Luke 24:46-47, the verses are as follows:

Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. [Luke 24:46-47]​

With the Greek as:

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, ὅτι οὕτως γέγραπται, παθεῖν τὸν Χριστὸν, καὶ ἀναστῆναι ἐκ νεκρῶν τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ: καὶ κηρυχθῆναι ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι αὐτοῦ μετάνοιαν εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, ἀρξάμενοι ἀπὸ Ἰερουσαλήμ. ​

Or if you don't speak Greek, it literally translates as [correlate the commas to see individual clauses]:

and said to them, thus it has been written, was to suffer the Christ, and to rise out from dead the third day: and to be proclaimed in the name of Him repentance and forgiveness of sins, to all nations having begun at Jerusalem.
​

It's the use of εἰς where we run into problems, as μετάνοιαν εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν is the phrase in question. Though εἰς can be translated as for, most translate it as and.

Perhaps this will help -

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;

Acts 3:19
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,

Acts 8:22
Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

Perhaps you can justify your thoughts with these passages also.

 

[EmSw]

Called it.

Will you answer for him? Perhaps you can tell me why you will die a physical death even though Jesus atoned for that.

 

[nobdysfool]

So NF, are you going to die a physical death, even though Jesus atoned for that?

Jesus atoned for the sins that resulted in the sentence of death. He didn't atone for physical death.

Will I physically die? Unless there is a rapture, and/or I am still alive at the Second Coming, yes, because mortality cannot inherit immortality. This body will be changed, to be like unto His Glorious Body. As to why I die, my sins are covered. My body, however is a product of sinful parents, and as they inhereted their sinful nature, so did I. My body was corrupt right from the start. The moment I was born, I began to die, physically. This corrupt body can never attain incorruptibility, unless it is changed by God before (Rapture) or after (Resurrection) my death.

You are venturing into territory that you obviously are not familiar with and do not hold to an orthodox understanding. So, you tell us. What did Jesus atone for? What was the purpose of His death? Do you even understand the parallel of Jesus' death and burial, and water baptism?

 

[nobdysfool]

Called it.

Indeed you did! and I have answered his - too clever by half - ridiculous question

 

[nobdysfool]

Will you answer for him? Perhaps you can tell me why you will die a physical death even though Jesus atoned for that.

How rude! And to be clear, Jesus did not atone for physical death. Nowhere in Scripture is that ever stated.

 

[EmSw]

Jesus atoned for the sins that resulted in the sentence of death. He didn't atone for physical death.

Will I physically die? Unless there is a rapture, and/or I am still alive at the Second Coming, yes, because mortality cannot inherit immortality. This body will be changed, to be like unto His Glorious Body. As to why I die, my sins are covered. My body, however is a product of sinful parents, and as they inhereted their sinful nature, so did I. My body was corrupt right from the start. The moment I was born, I began to die, physically. This corrupt body can never attain incorruptibility, unless it is changed by God before (Rapture) or after (Resurrection) my death.

You are venturing into territory that you obviously are not familiar with and do not hold to an orthodox understanding. So, you tell us. What did Jesus atone for? What was the purpose of His death? Do you even understand the parallel of Jesus' death and burial, and water baptism?

Here is your quote - "Physical death is the punishment for sin." If Jesus atoned the sins that resulted in the sentence of (physical) death, why will you still bear the punishment? Who or what bears the punishment for our spiritual death? You say everyone is born in sin, and dead in sin, so I ask who bears the punishment for these?

 

[EmSw]

How rude! And to be clear, Jesus did not atone for physical death. Nowhere in Scripture is that ever stated.

Now you are saying Jesus did not atone the punishment. Your quote again, "Physical death is the punishment for sin."

 

[nobdysfool]

Perhaps this will help -

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;

Acts 3:19
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,

Acts 8:22
Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

Perhaps you can justify your thoughts with these passages also.

Repentance and remission of sins are two separate actions. One done by man, the other done by God. Repentance is granted by God, first. You're trying to split hairs.

 

[nobdysfool]

Here is your quote - "Physical death is the punishment for sin."

Based on the Scripture "the soul that sins shall die." Are you going to argue with that?

If Jesus atoned the sins that resulted in the sentence of (physical) death, why will you still bear the punishment?

Already explained.

Who or what bears the punishment for our spiritual death? You say everyone is born in sin, and dead in sin, so I ask who bears the punishment for these?

Already explained, although it obviously flew right past you.

By your questions, you seem to not believe that Jesus atoned for sins on the cross. If that is so, what did He atone for?

You think you're asking tough questions, but you're only making yourself look bad.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

FOLKS, THE THREAD HERE IS GOING DOWNHILL AND OFF TOPIC QUICKLY. IF WE DO NOT RETURN TO THE ORIGINAL DISCUSSION OF THE FIVE POINTS OF CALVINISM, I WILL REPORT.

 

[nobdysfool]

Now you are saying Jesus did not atone the punishment. Your quote again, "Physical death is the punishment for sin."

You're splitting hairs. Jesus did not die for death, He died to atone for sins. Death is a result of sin, not its cause.

 

[nobdysfool]

FOLKS, THE THREAD HERE IS GOING DOWNHILL AND OFF TOPIC QUICKLY. IF WE DO NOT RETURN TO THE ORIGINAL DISCUSSION OF THE FIVE POINTS OF CALVINISM, I WILL REPORT.

I would like nothing more than to return to the subject of the thread, but i cannot and will not be silent when someone is speaking incorrectly and with intentional intent to defame someone about the most basic of doctrines, that of the Atonement

 

[EmSw]

FOLKS, THE THREAD HERE IS GOING DOWNHILL AND OFF TOPIC QUICKLY. IF WE DO NOT RETURN TO THE ORIGINAL DISCUSSION OF THE FIVE POINTS OF CALVINISM, I WILL REPORT.

Have you not interacted in these discussions as well?

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Have you not interacted in these discussions as well?

My interaction has absolutely no bearing on the fact that you continually derail the conversation and push it farther away from the topic at hand, while NobdysFool and I try to return.

 

[nobdysfool]

Have you not interacted in these discussions as well?

He started the thread, and therefore has to right to take actions to keep it on track. You are disrupting and derailing the thread with your words games and baiting and goading.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Proverbs 18:2
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

My brothers in Christ if I may, there is an easier way to put distance between those who are not at all here to engage rightly.
There is an ignore function that allows you to set a screen name to ignore. You never know they're in the thread.
Not even their posts someone quotes of them will appear before you.

We are to be patient and kind and yet recognize what is before us.1 Corinthians 2:14 .

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

No the totality of the Bible does not support all five points. You can read Jordan Cooper's essays on why its wrong on 3 points: limited atonment, irrisistible grace, and persevearance of the saints. You/one would have to assume that the people who fell away in the new testament were never Elect that were lectured by Paul, etc. Why warn people with law if they were elect? I would encourage them with gospel. Therefore, the passages I disagree with Calvinists are because they are not seeing the law/gospel distinction in lutheranism and the idea of telling people what they need to hear at a particular moment in time. An elect can fall away.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

You/one would have to assume that the people who fell away in the new testament were never Elect that were lectured by Paul, etc.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." [1 John 2:19]