Does the Bahai' religion...

[simplegifts]

Does the Bahai' religion demand respect of evil or all self-proclaimed prophets?

I am thinking of John Smith here.

I just found an interesting page:
http://bahaisofutah.angelfire.com/JOSEPHSMITH.html
That discusses the difference between a seer and a prophet.

Which made me wonder about Bahai on this site who stick up for Mohammad in spite of his history of disgusting behavior. Wouldn't it be more accurate to just label him a "seer" with all the faults of man then a prophet who is the Incarnations of the Names and Attributes of ALLAH. [? my question] They do not have "human" souls. Their souls are Divine (the Names and Attributes

Mohammad calls himself a warner. Then changes to calling himself the seal of prophets which I imagine Bahai do not agree with.

Which brings up the question why would a person consider a man a prophet who gives out false information?

 

[Arthra]

Simple gifts!

Thanks for your post..

I suppose you're asking several things here...

I reviewed the site you posted.. and while there are definitely some Baha'i ideas included there are some things about that I think are not representative of most Baha'is.. The business about nineteen things you must do or nineteen beliefsa you must have are not characteristic. Becoming a Baha'i is pretty straight forward and simple.. You must accept Baha'u'llah as the Lord of the age...The Manifestation of God for this day... The rest that's involved can be explained rather easily.. Here's a site with the general basic requirements:

Join: Invitation

There's also a rather straight forward review of Questions and Answers at

The Bahá'ís: Questions & Answers

Regarding Joseph Smith and Mormonism... there's really no connection with the Baha'i Faith. We generally respect the good things Mormons do .. They're a Christian denomination. We do not use the Book of Mormon and do not regard it as authentic. Joseph Smith is not a Prophet for us. There is an essay you may like to peruse at

https://www.bahai-studies.ca/journal/files/jbs/3.2 Collins.pdf

Finally regarding Prophet Muhammad... Baha'is do recognise Prophet Muhammad as a Manifestation of God and we accept the Qur'an as an authentic repository of the Word of God... We regard the "Seal" as referred to in the Qur'an as a seal of authenticity that Prophet Muhammad was authentic..not that He was the final prophet. Many Baha'is had a Muslim background and becoming Bahais were regarded as apostates and many lost their lives and Baha'is are still being persecuted in Iran. For a detailed explanation of the "seal" see the following:

A Bahá'í Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam

Hope this answers your questions!

- Art

 

[GradStudent19]

As the previous poster said, this site isn't representative of all Baha'is.

Baha'is have the freedom to believe as individuals anything we personally wish too if we find it beneficial for our own faith. The only thing we all agree on is the fundamentals and the Covenant.

There are Baha'is who "believe" in varying degrees in Joseph Smith. Some try to defend that he was predicting Baha'u'llah. This isn't an officially Baha'i position, but only the belief of select individuals.

With regards to Muhammad, Baha'u'llah used formal Islamic interpretative methods (Tafsir) in the Kitab-i-Iqan to address the "Seal" of the prophets status. Generally speak, Muslims believe Qur'an 33:40 to prove that Muhammad is the last Prophet and "Seal" -- however, we believe that Qur'an 33:44 proves that another Prophet must come after the Seal inaugurating a new era of revelation. The entire argument is made out in the Kitab-i-Iqan.

We Baha'is have no problems with the fact that cultural attitudes shift across ages. The "despicable" actions of Muhammad are only despicable because contemporary Westerners want to read a universal morality across history, which is problematic. God is unchanging, but humanity constantly grows and thus culture changes. In order to abide by an unchanging God, morality must be renewed and evolved alongside us.

 

[light upon light]

I can only add that many of the "disgusting" things ascribed to Muhammad are simply untrue.

 

[simplegifts]

Are you saying then that morality is relative? Even though the 10 Commandments and moral Laws from Judaism and then Christianity came first?

So do Baha'is believe it is ok to have multiple wives, kill to reach paradise, marry a 6-9 year old, have multiple wives, etc. to emulate Mohammad? Is Baha'u'llah the one you want to emulate?

 

[simplegifts]

Simple gifts!

Thanks for your post..

I suppose you're asking several things here...

I reviewed the site you posted.. and while there are definitely some Baha'i ideas included there are some things about that I think are not representative of most Baha'is.. The business about nineteen things you must do or nineteen beliefsa you must have are not characteristic. Becoming a Baha'i is pretty straight forward and simple.. You must accept Baha'u'llah as the Lord of the age...The Manifestation of God for this day... The rest that's involved can be explained rather easily.. Here's a site with the general basic requirements:

Join: Invitation

There's also a rather straight forward review of Questions and Answers at

The Bahá'ís: Questions & Answers

Regarding Joseph Smith and Mormonism... there's really no connection with the Baha'i Faith. We generally respect the good things Mormons do .. They're a Christian denomination. We do not use the Book of Mormon and do not regard it as authentic. Joseph Smith is not a Prophet for us. There is an essay you may like to peruse at

https://www.bahai-studies.ca/journal/files/jbs/3.2 Collins.pdf

Finally regarding Prophet Muhammad... Baha'is do recognise Prophet Muhammad as a Manifestation of God and we accept the Qur'an as an authentic repository of the Word of God... We regard the "Seal" as referred to in the Qur'an as a seal of authenticity that Prophet Muhammad was authentic..not that He was the final prophet. Many Baha'is had a Muslim background and becoming Bahais were regarded as apostates and many lost their lives and Baha'is are still being persecuted in Iran. For a detailed explanation of the "seal" see the following:

A Bahá'í Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam

Hope this answers your questions!

- Art

Who would you consider a seer?

 

[GradStudent19]

Are you saying then that morality is relative? Even though the 10 Commandments and moral Laws from Judaism and then Christianity came first?

So do Baha'is believe it is ok to have multiple wives, kill to reach paradise, marry a 6-9 year old, have multiple wives, etc. to emulate Mohammad? Is Baha'u'llah the one you want to emulate?

Baha'is believe that economic, agricultural, and civil and cultural structures are changing which requires changes in various laws impacted by them. Christians too married multiple wives and young girls before the middle ages. The greek term for "virgin" (Parthenos) applied to Mary is only ever in the greek world used for young girls - pubescent and pre-pubescent. Mary was as young as Aisha when God gave her Jesus.

We as a culture look down on those who sleep together below the age of 16, but that's a relatively new thing. Multiple wives serves multiple functions in societies that are agrarian and poor.

However, we don't think morality is "relative" today. There is an absolute, which is what God says, but that changes as broad changes in society occur. Today monogamy and at an age of consent (to Baha'is, 15/16) are the laws God desires of us today. This law is universally binding to all people alive today, but requires the option of believe, because we do not push what God says on others.

Just as Christians do not follow kosher laws, laws against mixing cloth, and prohibitions on tatoos -- because the New Testament makes such laws irrelevant, while it still continues the Ten Commandments (despite shifting the Sabbath to Sunday). Baha'is believe Each Prophet does the similar: Muhammad adapted Christian law, and Baha'u'llah adapts the laws of Muhammad and the Bab.

 

[GradStudent19]

Who would you consider a seer?

The "seer" passage comes from Pilgrim's Note, which is not authoritative. Thus there is no official Baha'i concept of "seer." Indidivual Baha'is choose to believe in the passage, but not everyone does. So "seer" to a Baha'i is an individual list.

 

[simplegifts]

The "seer" passage comes from Pilgrim's Note, which is not authoritative. Thus there is no official Baha'i concept of "seer." Indidivual Baha'is choose to believe in the passage, but not everyone does. So "seer" to a Baha'i is an individual list.

Oh ok.

Thanks to all for the information and links!

 

[Arthra]

Are you saying then that morality is relative? Even though the 10 Commandments and moral Laws from Judaism and then Christianity came first?

So do Baha'is believe it is ok to have multiple wives, kill to reach paradise, marry a 6-9 year old, have multiple wives, etc. to emulate Mohammad? Is Baha'u'llah the one you want to emulate?

Simple gifts...

Thanks for your post...

Baha'is have very clear standards of morality.. So we do not hold that "morality is relative".

Baha'is practise monogamy..The age required to be married is fifteen years and with living parent's consent.

Baha'u'llah has abrogated Jihad or Holy War and we do not kill people to reach paradise...

Baha'is accept Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this day...

If you have issues with early Islam and the life of Prophet Muhammad simply ask and we'll respond and I know there are also Muslims on this forum who also would respond.

- Art

 

[dlamberth]

Which brings up the question why would a person consider a man a prophet who gives out false information?

I want to touch on just this part of your post. A prophet to me is not about telling the future or making projections or anything like that. It's about people who have God so alive and vibrant with in their souls and in their reality that they are able to open to God such that God speaks through them. What prophets speak about is making God a reality. That's it.

We are ALL human beings, even the prophets and Saints. We ALL make human mistakes and do stupid stuff. But for those who have their eye on God, like what I'd call something a true prophets does, the rest of us should be able to find some inkling of what they (prophets) see if God is truly shining through them. Which would be God. And that's where I see the importance of prophets and what I look for in a prophet. It's not in their telling the future or anything like that.

I'm not sure, but it looks to me like future telling as an image of prophets is a Christian only trajectory. Am I wrong in that perception? Where did that idea come from?

.

 

[smaneck]

Are you saying then that morality is relative?

To some extent, yes. I do not think it was wrong for Abraham to marry his half-sister or for Jacob to have two wives. I think it is wrong for anyone to do that today.

Even though the 10 Commandments and moral Laws from Judaism and then Christianity came first?

That statement makes no sense to me, but Christians no longer observe the Sabbath which is one Saturday. I don't think they are immoral because they no longer observe that commandment.

So do Baha'is believe it is ok to have multiple wives

The Bible indicates it is okay to have multiple wives, not the Baha'i Writings, but we don't fault either either the Bible or the Qur'an for allowing this.

kill to reach paradise

Why do you always insist on throwing out such slander when you know full well this is *not* what the person is saying? Muslims, let alone Baha'is, don't indicate you can kill to reach paradise. Rather they say you can reach paradise by *dying* in God's path.

marry a 6-9 year old

As you know full well, I don't believe Aisha was anywhere near that young.

Is Baha'u'llah the one you want to emulate?

Actually, we try and emulate Abdu'l-Baha.

 

[AionPhanes]

Re: "is morality relative." I think that can be hard for people to answer with a categorical 'yes' or 'no'. It depends a lot on exactly what people have in mind when they say "morality" and "relative". Should ones moral decision making take into account certain institutional realities, culture, social mores, etc..? Sure. Does that mean it's ever ok to rape and torture a child? No.

I , to use myself as an example, tend in the direction of virtue ethics which brings in a certain degree of both 'objectivity' and 'relativity'. I also recognize that how one can best implement virtuous activity (or action in accordance with virtue) can vary based on situations too. It's generally virtuous not to lie. If the proverbial SS officer ask if you have a Jew in your attic, so they can send them to Auschwitz, then it might instead be virtuous to misdirect if not outright lie. Not everyone is a hyper-strict deontological ethics type, for example, who might say that morality is always objective and based on a list of axioms or propositions that I have in a book I authored a few years back.

on another note...

I'm going to pick up the book "Paradise and Paradigm: Key Symbols in Persian Christianity and the Baha'i Faith" soon because Persian and Syriac Christianity is my thing. Have any of the Bahai's, or anyone else, here read this yet?

 

[smaneck]

I'm going to pick up the book "Paradise and Paradigm: Key Symbols in Persian Christianity and the Baha'i Faith" soon because Persian and Syriac Christianity is my thing. Have any of the Bahai's, or anyone else, here read this yet?

Actually the author, Chris Buck, is an old friend of mine. I believe this was his doctoral dissertation.

 

[simplegifts]

To some extent, yes. I do not think it was wrong for Abraham to marry his half-sister or for Jacob to have two wives. I think it is wrong for anyone to do that today.



That statement makes no sense to me, but Christians no longer observe the Sabbath which is one Saturday. I don't think they are immoral because they no longer observe that commandment.



The Bible indicates it is okay to have multiple wives, not the Baha'i Writings, but we don't fault either either the Bible or the Qur'an for allowing this.



Why do you always insist on throwing out such slander when you know full well this is *not* what the person is saying? Muslims, let alone Baha'is, don't indicate you can kill to reach paradise. Rather they say you can reach paradise by *dying* in God's path.



As you know full well, I don't believe Aisha was anywhere near that young.



Actually, we try and emulate Abdu'l-Baha.

There were no need for new laws for the Jews. No need for Mohammad.

Christians also have no need for Mohammad - Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Since the Gentiles also had the Noahide Laws there was no need for Mohammad to add anything.

This is exactly the verse and explanation Islamists use. They are the ones slandering their fellow Muslims.
009.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

 

[smaneck]

Christians also have no need for Mohammad - Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

You realize that Jesus was quoting the Pharisees when he said this?

So by your logic the Jews can say they have no need for Jesus.

 

[simplegifts]

You realize that Jesus was quoting the Pharisees when he said this?

So by your logic the Jews can say they have no need for Jesus.

Which while odd for a Christian to say, is something I believe. If Jews are true to YHWH they do not need God's Word incarnate. God's Word incarnate came for the rest of us.

 

[smaneck]

Which while odd for a Christian to say, is something I believe. If Jews are true to YHWH they do not need God's Word incarnate. God's Word incarnate came for the rest of us.

So much for Jesus being the Messiah!

 

[simplegifts]

So much for Jesus being the Messiah!

Jesus is the Messiah for me. Without him I would know nothing of Judaism YHWH. I do see Jesus in Isaiah as the suffering servant.

https://flashtrafficblog.wordpress....ys-messiah-to-come-die-and-rise-on-third-day/

 

[smaneck]

Jesus is the Messiah for me.

Messiah means the Anointed King of the Jews. Has nothing to do with savior.