Documents Tell of Brutal Improvisation by GIs

[Grizzly]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201941.html

"Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush was being stubborn with his American captors, and a series of intense beatings and creative interrogation tactics were not enough to break his will. On the morning of Nov. 26, 2003, a U.S. Army interrogator and a military guard grabbed a green sleeping bag, stuffed Mowhoush inside, wrapped him in an electrical cord, laid him on the floor and began to go to work. Again.

It was inside the sleeping bag that the 56-year-old detainee took his last breath through broken ribs, lying on the floor beneath a U.S. soldier in Interrogation Room 6 in the western Iraqi desert. Two days before, a secret CIA-sponsored group of Iraqi paramilitaries, working with Army interrogators, had beaten Mowhoush nearly senseless, using fists, a club and a rubber hose, according to classified documents."


Do we have a moral highground anymore?

 

[arnegrim]

Obviously because of this example all our troops are thugs and murderers. Bring them home and disband the military NOW!

By the same token... it's only a few muslim extremists who are committed to killing anyone and everyone... the rest of the muslim population is peaceful.

 

[HumbleMan]

I would say you're right, Arne, if it had only been someone in the army doing this. But if it was done in conjunctin with a CIA trained and/or sponsored team of Iraqis, then I would say it might be an institutional problem.

 

[Grizzly]

Obviously because of this example all our troops are thugs and murderers. Bring them home and disband the military NOW!

Strange reaction. I was merely hoping for a condemnation of the act. I think its wrong to capture people and torture them to death. Especially when these acts are being done in my name. Maybe that makes me a part of the "looney left". I don't know.

 

[arnegrim]

Strange reaction. I was merely hoping for a condemnation of the act. I think its wrong to capture people and torture them to death. Especially when these acts are being done in my name. Maybe that makes me a part of the "looney left". I don't know.

Well then I apologize... since you did not state what you thought, I got the impression is was just a rant against our troops.

I agree with your condemnation.

 

[Grizzly]

Well then I apologize... since you did not state what you thought, I got the impression is was just a rant against our troops.

I agree with your condemnation.

No, no rant against the troops. I just spent the weekend with a buddy of mine who is a Gunny Sargeant in the Marine Reserves. He's been to Iraq twice (Gulf War I and II). He's one of the finest men I know. I just want the abuses to stop - and so does he. He told me that these types of incidents are just fuel for the fire. For me, I have a higher (loftier?) view of America. I want us to be better than that.

 

[Autumnleaf]

We spend how many billion dollars on the military/CIA and we're reduced to thuggery interrogation which doesn't even work? The old interrogation story in Vietnam comes to mind where all it took to break a certain NVA officer was a carton of cigs and inappropriate content.

 

[arnegrim]

We spend how many billion dollars on the military/CIA and we're reduced to thuggery interrogation which doesn't even work? The old interrogation story in Vietnam comes to mind where all it took to break a certain NVA officer was a carton of cigs and inappropriate content.

But pigs and inappropriate content are not allowed... that would be disrespectful. Not that sleeping bags and hoses are any better.

 

[blueapplepaste]

Obviously because of this example all our troops are thugs and murderers. Bring them home and disband the military NOW!

By the same token... it's only a few muslim extremists who are committed to killing anyone and everyone... the rest of the muslim population is peaceful.

But the problem is that the few Muslim extremists have forever tarnished their religion for the majority of Americans. Many Americans refuse to believe that Muslims are peaceful and that it couldn't only be a few bad ones. They must all be bad.

This same attitude will run rampant in the Muslim countries. I know our military is good. Sure there are some not so perfect aspects of it. But what people overseas will remember are the horrible stories and pictures. Is it fair? Not really, but that's life. We cannot afford to have any bad apples. Period. And when they're discovered they need to be punished swifter and harder. By covering up, spinning the story, ignoring, denying, etc, we only set a bad example. It becomes a little like the pot calling the kettle black when we go and lecture countries and people on how to act but we do the exact things that we condemn them for.

 

[arnegrim]

But the problem is that the few Muslim extremists have forever tarnished their religion for the majority of Americans. Many Americans refuse to believe that Muslims are peaceful and that it couldn't only be a few bad ones. They must all be bad.

This same attitude will run rampant in the Muslim countries. I know our military is good. Sure there are some not so perfect aspects of it. But what people overseas will remember are the horrible stories and pictures. Is it fair? Not really, but that's life. We cannot afford to have any bad apples. Period. And when they're discovered they need to be punished swifter and harder. By covering up, spinning the story, ignoring, denying, etc, we only set a bad example. It becomes a little like the pot calling the kettle black when we go and lecture countries and people on how to act but we do the exact things that we condemn them for.

The difference?

The US is actively prosecuting those 'bad apples' that it finds out about and is taking steps to prevent it in the future.

The muslim community is doing... not a whole lot.

 

[blueapplepaste]

The difference?

The US is actively prosecuting those 'bad apples' that it finds out about and is taking steps to prevent it in the future.

The muslim community is doing... not a whole lot.

My point is that there isn't a difference. We are no better than them. They're not doing a lot, and neither are we. Sure we're "investigating" the cases. But to me it looks like the military is dodging the issue and making excuses. If it looks like this to me, an American, imagine what the Muslim community must think. If we are to expect any change we need to set an example. And the one we're setting now isn't going to make things any better any time soon.

 

[eldermike]

I can't suppose to know anything here other than what I read in the papers. But, suppose you were operating under the idea that WMD was a reality, that the clock was ticking and 10's of thousands were to be saved by finding them. Sorry, but I am not moved to any opinion based on this article. I would also add that I even give the benifit of doubt on the motives of even the CIA people, they may not enjoy hurting people but operate on a sense of duty.

 

[utdbear]

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......more 'documents' !!!!!!!!

 

[arnegrim]

My point is that there isn't a difference. We are no better than them. They're not doing a lot, and neither are we. Sure we're "investigating" the cases. But to me it looks like the military is dodging the issue and making excuses. If it looks like this to me, an American, imagine what the Muslim community must think. If we are to expect any change we need to set an example. And the one we're setting now isn't going to make things any better any time soon.

Wrong.

The US is taking the abusers to trial and convicting them.

The muslim community is...?

 

[blueapplepaste]

Wrong.

The US is taking the abusers to trial and convicting them.

The muslim community is...?

While a couple of people have recieved light sentences, nothing significant has been done. That is the perception anyways that I have and I'd imagine that most Muslims have. Whether or not this is true perception is everything. They will look here and see that its ok to abuse and torture prisoners, even if you get caught you'll get off the hook with a whimpy sentence.

 

[arnegrim]

While a couple of people have recieved light sentences, nothing significant has been done. That is the perception anyways that I have and I'd imagine that most Muslims have. Whether or not this is true perception is everything. They will look here and see that its ok to abuse and torture prisoners, even if you get caught you'll get off the hook with a whimpy sentence.

And the perception is that the muslim community does not care about the suicide bombings.

Is that right?

 

[JPPT1974]

While a couple of people have recieved light sentences, nothing significant has been done. That is the perception anyways that I have and I'd imagine that most Muslims have. Whether or not this is true perception is everything. They will look here and see that its ok to abuse and torture prisoners, even if you get caught you'll get off the hook with a whimpy sentence.

Well don't blame the whole US Government nor military. But blame does individually who are responsible for their actions and held accountable.

 

[fyodoros]

Sorry, but I am not moved to any opinion based on this article. I would also add that I even give the benifit of doubt on the motives of even the CIA people, they may not enjoy hurting people but operate on a sense of duty.

you, know, some muslims want all westerners dead on the same premise that you have just used. you are no better than them, IMO, and neither is anyone else who feels no pain when they read this sort of thing.

"but this is something exclusive to muslims", you all have said. apparently not.

 

[eldermike]

you, know, some muslims want all westerners dead on the same premise that you have just used. you are no better than them, IMO, and neither is anyone else who feels no pain when they read this sort of thing.

"but this is something exclusive to muslims", you all have said. apparently not.

Did I say I feel no pain? No I did not. I said I can't draw any opinions using the information provided..............

 

[rosenherman]

And the perception is that the muslim community does not care about the suicide bombings.

Is that right?

That certainly is my perception.