Documents Tell of Brutal Improvisation by GIs

[Duke of Marlborough]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201941.html

"Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush was being stubborn with his American captors, and a series of intense beatings and creative interrogation tactics were not enough to break his will. On the morning of Nov. 26, 2003, a U.S. Army interrogator and a military guard grabbed a green sleeping bag, stuffed Mowhoush inside, wrapped him in an electrical cord, laid him on the floor and began to go to work. Again.

It was inside the sleeping bag that the 56-year-old detainee took his last breath through broken ribs, lying on the floor beneath a U.S. soldier in Interrogation Room 6 in the western Iraqi desert. Two days before, a secret CIA-sponsored group of Iraqi paramilitaries, working with Army interrogators, had beaten Mowhoush nearly senseless, using fists, a club and a rubber hose, according to classified documents."


Do we have a moral highground anymore?

Why is this written in a way to make the enemy prisoner look like a hero for resisting his interrogation?

Oh......nevermind, I see this is from the Washington Post. That explains it.

 

[Illuminatus]

Three cheers for truth, justice, and the American Way!

 

[Grizzly]

Why is this written in a way to make the enemy prisoner look like a hero for resisting his interrogation?

Oh......nevermind, I see this is from the Washington Post. That explains it.

I'm sure he was heroic for someone. One man's hero is another man's scoundrel.

BTW, any opinions on how he was treated? Do you approve of torturing people to death?

 

[Praise2God]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201941.html

"Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush was being stubborn with his American captors, and a series of intense beatings and creative interrogation tactics were not enough to break his will. On the morning of Nov. 26, 2003, a U.S. Army interrogator and a military guard grabbed a green sleeping bag, stuffed Mowhoush inside, wrapped him in an electrical cord, laid him on the floor and began to go to work. Again.

It was inside the sleeping bag that the 56-year-old detainee took his last breath through broken ribs, lying on the floor beneath a U.S. soldier in Interrogation Room 6 in the western Iraqi desert. Two days before, a secret CIA-sponsored group of Iraqi paramilitaries, working with Army interrogators, had beaten Mowhoush nearly senseless, using fists, a club and a rubber hose, according to classified documents."


Do we have a moral highground anymore?

This is a good example of the "little the public knows the better." Why do we want to put skirts on the military? I want my military to be tough and intimidating. That's why the US military are a force to be reckoned with. If you are not tough in the battle field, then go watch some Sesame Street.

Anyhow, the difference between the US and the enemy is the US goes after the BAD guys whereas the enemy goes after the innocent. Interrogation is not for the faint of heart. It is designed that way to break the enemy's will. Otherwise, he will laugh at you in your face. It has been very successful for getting information. There's no other way to do it. That's why they train you to be tough minded in case of capture. If interrogation does not work, they wouldn't train you that in the first place.

 

[TheBear]

Do we have a moral highground anymore?

Without a doubt, we do.

 

[Praise2God]

Three cheers for truth, justice, and the American Way!

It sounds better than some Mounties wearing skirts.

 

[trunks2k]

It sounds better than some Mounties wearing skirts.

Mounties wear skirts? Are you sure you're not talking about the North Canadian Kilted Yaksman?

 

[tkoman]

This is a good example of the "little the public knows the better." Why do we want to put skirts on the military? I want my military to be tough and intimidating. That's why the US military are a force to be reckoned with. If you are not tough in the battle field, then go watch some Sesame Street.

Anyhow, the difference between the US and the enemy is the US goes after the BAD guys whereas the enemy goes after the innocent. Interrogation is not for the faint of heart. It is designed that way to break the enemy's will. Otherwise, he will laugh at you in your face. It has been very successful for getting information. There's no other way to do it. That's why they train you to be tough minded in case of capture. If interrogation does not work, they wouldn't train you that in the first place.

We obviously did break that guy's will. And his ribs . . . got a lot of info out of that one . . .barbaric

 

[philosopherthales]

This is a good example of the "little the public knows the better." Why do we want to put skirts on the military? I want my military to be tough and intimidating. That's why the US military are a force to be reckoned with. If you are not tough in the battle field, then go watch some Sesame Street.

We should have beheaded him on national tv. That would be tough and intimidating.

Ohh, and it seems you see this as an example of toughness. Beating someone that can't fight back is not tough. What does courage(toughness) have to do with that action?

This will not help the campaign. The more of this that occurs, the more resistance you will get. Even with more information, that resistance will be harder still because of greater numbers.

So, you come up with the conclusion that we shouldn't know about it. I'm sorry, but truth only hurts the bad guys. Don't do this kind of stuff, and there won't be any backlash from it. There are more noble ways to fight. Torture is a tool that could help the good guys, but the good guys are the ones that can't bring themselves to it.

 

[Illuminatus]

This is a good example of the "little the public knows the better." Why do we want to put skirts on the military? I want my military to be tough and intimidating. That's why the US military are a force to be reckoned with. If you are not tough in the battle field, then go watch some Sesame Street.

This attitude is no better than that of the terrorists.

 

[philosopherthales]

WASHINGTON - The U.S. army released details Friday of the suspected or confirmed homicides of 27 detainees who died in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan between August 2002 and November 2004.

The Army Criminal Investigation Command said in the 16 cases it has completed so far, it found sufficient evidence to support a range of charges against 21 soliders, including murder, negligent homicide and assault.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/03/25/homicides-050325.html

Three Pakistani nationals who were picked up by the US forces from Afghanistan in 2002 and sent to Guantanamao jail, have revealed that the US security personnel desecrated the Quran and the female prison staff sexually and physically abused them.

These allegations are contained in the documents obtained by the Daily Times in which the three prisoners confess about the ill-treatment meted to them at Guantanamao to a joint interrogation team (JIT) of Pakistani intelligence agencies - Military Intelligence (MI), Intelligence Bureau (IB), ISI, Special Investigation Group (SIG) and Sindh Police personnel. The JIT interrogated the three prisoners from April 18 to May 10.

The prisoners revealed that during interrogation at Guantanamao Bay the prison staff, especially the female personnel, used harsh methods to extract information from them and even chopped off the testicles of one of them. They used to press their private organs against their bodies and throw menstrual blood on their face, the prisoners added.

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=83448&n_date=20050524&cat=Asia

Children held by the U.S. Army at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison included one boy who appeared to be only about 8 years old, the former commander of the prison told investigators, according to a transcript.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/03/10/national/w144746S08.DTL

An Iraqi whose corpse was photographed with grinning U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib died under CIA interrogation while suspended by his wrists, which had been handcuffed behind his back, according to investigative reports reviewed by The Associated Press.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0217-09.htm


and the result you get....

-President Karzai of Afgahnistan wants control of Afganistan Bases.
- Colonel Thomas M. Pappas(ordered use of dogs) gets a reprimand and a 8,000 dollar fine
-Commander of Abu Ghraib prison Janis Karpinski was demoted from Brigadier General to Colonel
- Sgt Ivan Frederick gets 8 years in prison
-many happy americans

-We must not forget another result. Thousands trying to kill Americans.

 

[Norseman]

This is a good example of the "little the public knows the better." Why do we want to put skirts on the military? I want my military to be tough and intimidating. That's why the US military are a force to be reckoned with. If you are not tough in the battle field, then go watch some Sesame Street.

Anyhow, the difference between the US and the enemy is the US goes after the BAD guys whereas the enemy goes after the innocent. Interrogation is not for the faint of heart. It is designed that way to break the enemy's will. Otherwise, he will laugh at you in your face. It has been very successful for getting information. There's no other way to do it. That's why they train you to be tough minded in case of capture. If interrogation does not work, they wouldn't train you that in the first place.

Oh, wonderful. Yes, strike fear into the enemy. Where have I heard this before?

 

[kiwimac]

As to the comment that Muslims do nothing.

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660411.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660411.stm[/url]

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=306

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_to_the_2005_London_bombings

What exactly do you want them to do?

Kiwimac

 

[arnegrim]

As to the comment that Muslims do nothing.

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660411.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660411.stm[/url]

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=306

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_to_the_2005_London_bombings

What exactly do you want them to do?

Kiwimac

More of this and louder.

There have been suicide bombings in Iraq since we went in... and it took till now for the muslim community to take a stand?

 

[JPPT1974]

We obviously did break that guy's will. And his ribs . . . got a lot of info out of that one . . .barbaric

Let me guess what's coming...a lawsuit!

 

[reverend B]

it seems amusing to me that we are hearing some of you talk about the great justice that we have been meeting out with our providing fair trials from which they are convicted. according to three u.s. attorneys hired to prosecute the folks, who successively resigned in horror over the rigged deck, we have implemented a policy of convicting these people and then having a fair trial.
we knew about more than a dozen deaths confirmed in the various detention centers in iraq and afghanistan over a year ago. i fail to see the effectiveness of this as dead men tell no tales. why there could be even one american who is not humiliated by this i simply can't wrap my head around.
how about this perspective, for the Christian folks that find this much ado about nothing. WWJD? if he is our example for how to lead our lives, am i to assume that you believe that if He were in the same position, He, too, would beat to death a person who is entirely defenseless, under the guise of gleaning information? if your answer is yes then i can at least respect the consistency of your position.
i asked this question of a man not too long ago, and his very angry response to me was, "do you have to stick Jesus into everything?"
yes.

 

[Norseman]

it seems amusing to me that we are hearing some of you talk about the great justice that we have been meeting out with our providing fair trials from which they are convicted. according to three u.s. attorneys hired to prosecute the folks, who successively resigned in horror over the rigged deck, we have implemented a policy of convicting these people and then having a fair trial.
we knew about more than a dozen deaths confirmed in the various detention centers in iraq and afghanistan over a year ago. i fail to see the effectiveness of this as dead men tell no tales. why there could be even one american who is not humiliated by this i simply can't wrap my head around.
how about this perspective, for the Christian folks that find this much ado about nothing. WWJD? if he is our example for how to lead our lives, am i to assume that you believe that if He were in the same position, He, too, would beat to death a person who is entirely defenseless, under the guise of gleaning information? if your answer is yes then i can at least respect the consistency of your position.
i asked this question of a man not too long ago, and his very angry response to me was, "do you have to stick Jesus into everything?"
yes.

 

[arnegrim]

it seems amusing to me that we are hearing some of you talk about the great justice that we have been meeting out with our providing fair trials from which they are convicted. according to three u.s. attorneys hired to prosecute the folks, who successively resigned in horror over the rigged deck, we have implemented a policy of convicting these people and then having a fair trial.
we knew about more than a dozen deaths confirmed in the various detention centers in iraq and afghanistan over a year ago. i fail to see the effectiveness of this as dead men tell no tales. why there could be even one american who is not humiliated by this i simply can't wrap my head around.
how about this perspective, for the Christian folks that find this much ado about nothing. WWJD? if he is our example for how to lead our lives, am i to assume that you believe that if He were in the same position, He, too, would beat to death a person who is entirely defenseless, under the guise of gleaning information? if your answer is yes then i can at least respect the consistency of your position.
i asked this question of a man not too long ago, and his very angry response to me was, "do you have to stick Jesus into everything?"
yes.

Who says we aren't humiliated by this?
Yes, what some of our soldiers did was wrong.
Yes, they should be charged and prosecuted for it.
No, it's not the norm.

Question... where do you find in our laws or by-laws that we are a Christian nation with a Christian military?

 

[reverend B]

Who says we aren't humiliated by this?
Yes, what some of our soldiers did was wrong.
Yes, they should be charged and prosecuted for it.
No, it's not the norm.

Question... where do you find in our laws or by-laws that we are a Christian nation with a Christian military?

odd question. i said nothing of the kind. i said for the Christian folks that find this much ado about nothing. i was speaking to those Christians on this topic that don't find anything to wince about in these stories.
i am sorry if that wasn't clear to you.

 

[Norseman]

Question... where do you find in our laws or by-laws that we are a Christian nation with a Christian military?

We don't need to be a Christian nation and we don't need to have a Christian nation to be ethical. Killing people is bad, killing people for no reason is worse, torturing people and then killing them for no reason is atrocious. I don't think it takes a genius to see that the message we're giving to the Iraqis is that we don't consider them as good as we are. We are unwilling to give them the same treatment we would give our own citizens. We are prejudiced against them, and we are in power in their homeland. Since no one seems to comprehend this, let me give you a little scenario.

Germany decides it's time for WW3 (highly unlikely, of course). They decide the first one to attack is us, because we are evil (justified by the fact that our president at the time had condoned killing thousands of American citizens with only the justification that they voiced their opinions against him). So Germany comes in, kills off our military, and drives our leaders underground. We thank Germany for getting him out of power, people cheer as they topple his statues etc. but the Germans decide to stay, to make our government more like theirs, and to rebuild some of the essential things that they destroyed (power plants, sewage treatment plants, y'know, things that are hard to live without). Meanwhile, with several thousand American citizens dead, and more dying everyday, Germany starts having some fun. They take American citizens into prisons and they beat them with hoses. They strip them and take pictures of them. They treat us like animals. Naturally, many of us start fighting back. Germany insists that it will stay until the fighting has stopped, but we all know that the fighting won't stop until they stop abusing our people, and who knows when that will be?

The Iraqis must be treated as we would treat our own citizens, and abuses against them must be punished as we would punish those who so abuse our own citizens. That is the only way we will ever gain their trust and support.