Do you think religion is being taken out of secular society.

[Ringo84]

I have been pondering this question for a little while now and was wondering what others thought. Lately I have noticed that more people, organizations and governments are talking about the irrelevance of religion or religious belief. I am mainly talking about Christianity as in my country Australia we seem to be moving away from it pretty fast. Considering that we were built on Christian values it seems that we are forgetting our foundations.

I think this has been spurred on from the troubles we have had with some of the extremist groups like ISIS which is giving all religion a bad name. I know that there has been less people involved in religion over the pasts few decades and today's young generation are the least religious. I think at least in Australia because we are a multicultural country we are seeing other religions come in and the government is saying we can have any one religion being dominant. They are being too politically correct and saying it may offend other religions if we promote our own christian beliefs.

So now we can't have traditional celebrations like Christmas or Easter and now it is not being acknowledged anymore. In fact the commercial aspect of these occasions is becoming bigger and kids are more likely to believe in Santa Clause. It seems some are even getting angry or intolerant of any religion now and see it as not being relevant in today's world. Do you think this trend will continue and will Christianity eventually be totally removed from all public places.

No, I don't think it's being "taken out" of secular society.

No one said you can't have celebrations like Christmas or Easter, and whether children believe in Santa is really not your problem if they aren't your kids (even then, thinking that a jolly elf is coming down the chimney with presents is harmless and in no way "detracts" from the true meaning of Christmas).

The key to remember is that not everyone thinks like you do. If you want the right to believe as you choose, you should extend that right to others.
Ringo

 

[stevevw]

I thought Australia was established as a penal colony.

Surprisingly around 10% of the convicts were religious. You have to remember a lot came from Ireland which had strong connections with protestants and Catholics. But it was the British government and Royalty (the church of England) that had most influence as it did in England. Many of the laws that guided the community were based on Christian values and even quoted God directly as the guiding factor.

The presence of Christianity in Australia began with the foundation of a British colony at New South Wales in 1788.
According to Manning Clark, the early colonial officials of the colony had disdain for the "consolations of religion", but shared a view that "the Protestant religion and British institutions were the finest achievements of the wit of man for the promotion of liberty and a high material civilization." Thus they looked to Protestant ministers as the "natural moral policemen of society", of obvious social use in a convict colony for preaching against "drunkenness, whoring and gambling".
Christianity in Australia - Wikipedia
On 7 February 1788, Arthur Phillip was sworn in over the Bible as the first Governor of the colony, and delivered a speech to the convicts counselling the Christian virtues of marriage and an end to promiscuity.
Christianity in Australia - Wikipedia

Of particular interest is the passage mentioned above about "drunkenness, whoring and gambling" which is similar to what Falou mentions as being sins that the bible talks about.[/quote]

I don't know precisely about Australia, but in the US it's a factor of the Christians in charge behaving badly and claiming their bad behavior was in the name of Jesus.

Yes and that is probably a big factor in why so many people have turned off religion and criticize Christians. But as far as I understand Falou is not like that. He is a devout man.

I'd bet big bucks that Australian Christians are perfectly free to celebrate Christmas and Easter exactly as 1st century Christians did...why would you want to do it any differently from them?

Yes they can still practice Christmas and Easter to an extent. But it is slowly being taken out of mainstream society such as with schools and certain government, businesses and organisations banning any Christian ceremonies. The promotion of secular themes to these occasions are diminishing the traditional biblical theme of Christmas so I think it will eventually either be totally banned or will dwindle down to only Christians having small and quiet ceremonies on the fringes of society. You don't have to explicitly ban these occasions to make them go away. The promotion of anti Christian sentiment causes mainstream society to ridicule and attack anything Christian which can force Christians into the shadows.

 

[stevevw]

No, I don't think it's being "taken out" of secular society.

No one said you can't have celebrations like Christmas or Easter, and whether children believe in Santa is really not your problem if they aren't your kids (even then, thinking that a jolly elf is coming down the chimney with presents is harmless and in no way "detracts" from the true meaning of Christmas).

The key to remember is that not everyone thinks like you do. If you want the right to believe as you choose, you should extend that right to others.
Ringo

I believe some people with considerable influence are saying you cannot have these celebrations and this will gradually affect religious freedom. A ban does not have to start out with a complete ban. It begins with smaller bans and eventually results in the total removal of these events. For example some schools in Queensland in Australia where I live have stopped children making Christmas cards and other decorations that refer to the traditional Christmas. This has now become an issue where the department of Qld education is looking at banning reference to things like Christ and traditional Christmas to support inclusiveness of other religions. It is the same for parliament and using prayer in the opening parliament and other events. The government is looking at taking these things out.

This is the natural progression of secularism where they will not support any particular belief and yet our societies were based on Christian values for 100's of years. It is hard for a Christian to live in modern society as this is what is happening and seems to be a natural evolution of things especially perhaps in countries like Australia that are very multicultural. The problem is when it comes down to it some of these beliefs are in conflict with opposing views and that makes it hard for them to coexist. That is why secular governments will demote religious belief to a minor role and take any right away from it as too much right may cause conflicts.

But at the moment people have the right to express their beliefs and Falou had every right to express his beliefs by quoting the bible verse. The problem is corporations are gaining a lot of power and because secular governments have abandoned their Christian values and now have no clear position they are subject to the whims of those with power and influence to dictate what should be. This may see religious freedoms being diminished.

 

[stevevw]

When Christians were able to rest easy in the particular evil of slavery as it was practiced in America and claim it was God-ordained, they had already moved far from Christ.

Yes that is true but I would go even before this time to some of the evil act made by the church either when they were in power or had great influence over kings and rulers in the past such as the Spanish Inquisition. But as with power and being human this is an inherent weakness but there are also many strengths such as it was the influence of Christians who also ended slavery. I think there is more to why people are turning away. On the one hand there is the bad examples that people use as to why they do not believe but on the other I think some have chosen to disregard their belief as they want the freedom to live how they want. The Christian road can be narrow and require sacrifice.

 

[ralfyman]

Someone shared related information elsewhere, about decreasing Church attendance in various mainstream Christian groups, and from the early 1960s onward. Given that, it's possible that the main cause is increasing materialism brought about by prosperity and consumer spending.

That is, as more people think about work, their career, income, investments, entertainment, technology, etc., then religion becomes less prominent in their lives.

Finally, the catch is that all of that is dependent on large amounts of energy and material resources, which themselves face limits.

 

[RDKirk]

Surprisingly around 10% of the convicts were religious.

Not relevant to the point.

Your assertion was:

Considering that we were built on Christian values it seems that we are forgetting our foundations.

The fact that a small percentage of the convicts happened to be religious does not mean "built on Christian values."

Yes they can still practice Christmas and Easter to an extent.

I think you missed my point. They can practice Christmas and Easter to the exact extent that the early Christians practiced them. To the exact extent the original congregation in Jerusalem under the Apostles practiced it, to the exact extent Paul's congregations practiced them.

There is no reason to practice them any differently.

 

[RDKirk]

Yes that is true but I would go even before this time to some of the evil act made by the church either when they were in power or had great influence over kings and rulers in the past such as the Spanish Inquisition. But as with power and being human this is an inherent weakness but there are also many strengths such as it was the influence of Christians who also ended slavery. I think there is more to why people are turning away. On the one hand there is the bad examples that people use as to why they do not believe but on the other I think some have chosen to disregard their belief as they want the freedom to live how they want. The Christian road can be narrow and require sacrifice.

That was always true. Why are people surprised?

The problem is that in several places at several times a group came into political power using Jesus as its gang sign, but not as a way of life.

"As it is written: The gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you." -- Romans 2

 

[stevevw]

Not relevant to the point.

Your assertion was:

The fact that a small percentage of the convicts happened to be religious does not mean "built on Christian values."

Actually if you read what I posted I also mentioned that those who were in the position to control how society operated based their approach on Christian values as the basis for the way they ruled. They followed the British which was based on the Church of England. But as the article mentions that most believed that Christian morals was a strength in how Britain was able to have such a great influence at that time and therefore they supported the same approach to running the early colony in Australia. It was a good basis for keeping the convicts in check. But nevertheless here is another article that speaks about the important role Christianity has played in Australia.

Constitutionally Australia is a religious country
The reality is that liberal, Western democracies like Australia owe as much to Christianity as they do to historical movements like the Enlightenment and British institutions like the Westminster system of government and the common law.

That’s why parliaments around Australia begin with the Lord’s Prayer and the Australian Constitution’s preamble includes the words 'Humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God'.

Australia’s legal system and institutions, while being secular in nature, also draw heavily on Christian ethics and morality, best illustrated by the ten commandments and the fact that, for years, it was customary for those involved in trials to swear on the Bible.
Constitutionally Australia is a religious country

The article above also mentions that religious education has been a part of the Australian education system since we colonized Australia including in all secular public schools. But this is now being threatened and schools have been replacing this with other subjects which to me is a sign of how Christianity/religion is being taken out of mainstream society.

I think you missed my point. They can practice Christmas and Easter to the exact extent that the early Christians practiced them. To the exact extent the original congregation in Jerusalem under the Apostles practiced it, to the exact extent Paul's congregations practiced them.

There is no reason to practice them any differently.

The apostles could not practice Easter until Christ was crucified and then most of them were executed in some way themselves for being followers of Jesus. If anything that points to an intolerance of anything related to Jesus which is what Christmas and Easter are all about. The early Christians had to hide their beliefs and were persecuted because Christianity was illegal up until around 300 AD when Constantine supported the Christians.

Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire occurred intermittently over a period of over two centuries between the Great Fire of Rome in 64 AD under Nero and the Edict of Milanin 313 AD, in which the Roman Emperors Constantine the Great and Licinius legalized the Christian religion.
Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia

I am not say it is as bad as it was for the early church but I think it is heading that way. I don't think western governments will persecute Christians physically but I think that they are and will bring in laws and policies that make it harder to practice Christianity.

 

[Ringo84]

I believe some people with considerable influence are saying you cannot have these celebrations

Who?

Seriously. This is often bandied about (not just by you, but by many Christians), but there is often very little in the way of hard proof for it.

A ban does not have to start out with a complete ban. It begins with smaller bans and eventually results in the total removal of these events. For example some schools in Queensland in Australia where I live have stopped children making Christmas cards and other decorations that refer to the traditional Christmas. This has now become an issue where the department of Qld education is looking at banning reference to things like Christ and traditional Christmas to support inclusiveness of other religions. It is the same for parliament and using prayer in the opening parliament and other events. The government is looking at taking these things out.

I don't necessarily disagree with the statement in your first sentences.

However, I can't speak for Australia and what may or may not be happening there. But if it's anything like here in the US, it's not about "persecution" but about providing a neutral environment where multiple belief systems can thrive. Here in the US, we generally (this is unfortunately not as much of a widespread sentiment as it should be) believe that Christianity is one among many religious belief systems that deserve equal protection and respect under the law. This is why we don't prefer one over the other - to do that would imply that Christianity is "more important" or "more worthy of respect" than, say, Buddhism.

and yet our societies were based on Christian values for 100's of years.

Eh. Things like "thou shall not kill" and "thou shall not commit adultery" are pretty common among most or all groups. I'm skeptical of the claim that Christianity - or its values - have a special place in our society.

But at the moment people have the right to express their beliefs and Falou had every right to express his beliefs by quoting the bible verse. The problem is corporations are gaining a lot of power and because secular governments have abandoned their Christian values and now have no clear position they are subject to the whims of those with power and influence to dictate what should be. This may see religious freedoms being diminished.

I agree with the bolded part, but probably not for the same reason that you had in mind when you wrote it.

In short, and without derailing too much into political stuff, I think Christianity has become too political. I think it's allowed itself to compromise some very important beliefs in exchange for power.

But that's not necessarily the subject of the thread, so I'll leave it there. I don't think corporations or even governments are the problem. I think many modern Christians have mistaken a right to their beliefs to a right to a special place in government. The two are not the same and I don't think Christians should worry about political power.
Ringo

 

[RickardoHolmes]

I would say yes, and perhaps not enough. Church and state should be seperate.
I won't get into the opinion I have of taxing religious property .

Seperation of church and state means that laws CANNOT be forced into others by basis of religious doctrine. Ask the repressed people of Iran to explain that in detail.

As for celebrating Christmas, oddly enough, I have only been told be a few fundy/evangelical/Biblian wackos that I cannot celebrate it. (I did anyway)
If we have a true secular government, then no one has any authority to dictate ANOTHER person's practices or beliefs.

 

[RDKirk]

The apostles could not practice Easter until Christ was crucified and then most of them were executed in some way themselves for being followers of Jesus. If anything that points to an intolerance of anything related to Jesus which is what Christmas and Easter are all about. The early Christians had to hide their beliefs and were persecuted because Christianity was illegal up until around 300 AD when Constantine supported the Christians.

Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire occurred intermittently over a period of over two centuries between the Great Fire of Rome in 64 AD under Nero and the Edict of Milanin 313 AD, in which the Roman Emperors Constantine the Great and Licinius legalized the Christian religion.
Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia

I am not say it is as bad as it was for the early church but I think it is heading that way. I don't think western governments will persecute Christians physically but I think that they are and will bring in laws and policies that make it harder to practice Christianity.

I would point out that during this time the Church grew to 25% of the Roman Empire (or 25% of Rome itself).

So it wasn't totally hidden. Constantine didn't de-criminalize Christianity because he was a nice guy; he decriminalized Christianity because it became clear Christianity could not be exterminated.

We see the same thing happening in North Korea today.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Rather Christians acceded to this secular hegemony and now we are reaping the consequences of that decision. Moral relativism, increased debauchery, philosophical subjectivity, unrestrained gluttony and access to entertainment. These things do not make a healthy society or one that will survive or hold on to any sort of identity.

The trend is not universal in all countries and can be reversed, but it does require an effort on the part of major aspects of society to actually implement a Christian agenda. So I think this aggressive secularism will increase in countries like Britain, USA, Australia, New Zealand but in countries like Poland it will be minimized.

I wouldn't worry though, the faithful remnant will always remain.

 

[stevevw]

I would point out that during this time the Church grew to 25% of the Roman Empire (or 25% of Rome itself).

So it wasn't totally hidden. Constantine didn't de-criminalize Christianity because he was a nice guy; he decriminalized Christianity because it became clear Christianity could not be exterminated.

We see the same thing happening in North Korea today.

Yes the Church grew despite the persecution and the persecution actually cause it to grown even more.

 

[RDKirk]

Yes the Church grew despite the persecution and the persecution actually cause it to grown even more.

And so:

Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.

But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. -- 1 Peter 4

 

[stevevw]

Who?

Seriously. This is often bandied about (not just by you, but by many Christians), but there is often very little in the way of hard proof for it.

I have already posted some support for this. It comes from political groups who oppose anything religious. They put pressure on institutions like schools and big business and gradually the government puts in changes that deny people to practice Christianity which includes Christmas. I think big corporations wield a lot of power and they can influence governments. Examples came from the same sex marriage debate where large corporations were supporting the cause which more or less was saying to anyone who worked for them that they could not overtly express their views and beliefs that opposed this for fear or being made an outcast. Examples in schools are happening all the time and the more it happens the more Christian celebrations and practice will be taken out of mainstream society.
Nativity scene banned at shopping centre to avoid upsetting non-religious shoppers
Shopping centre bans nativity scene to avoid offending non-religious shoppers | Metro News

I don't necessarily disagree with the statement in your first sentences.

However, I can't speak for Australia and what may or may not be happening there. But if it's anything like here in the US, it's not about "persecution" but about providing a neutral environment where multiple belief systems can thrive. Here in the US, we generally (this is unfortunately not as much of a widespread sentiment as it should be) believe that Christianity is one among many religious belief systems that deserve equal protection and respect under the law. This is why we don't prefer one over the other - to do that would imply that Christianity is "more important" or "more worthy of respect" than, say, Buddhism.[/quote] Yes this is the nature of secularism and I have no qualms about that. It is quite predictable and that is why I can confidently say that Christianity will diminish. The trouble is I personally believe and so do many other that we have gone to far with being politically correct with equal rights. As stated our nations were built on Christian values and many of our christian charities are the safety nets for thousands of disadvantaged people.

There is nothing wrong in saying that we support our Christian values above other religions. The problem with being all inclusive is that it allows radical beliefs to have as much of a say as others. It undermines our own moral foundations because we then do not align with any position which opens society up to being subject to anyone who is loud enough or has enough backing to push their agenda and dominate.

Eh. Things like "thou shall not kill" and "thou shall not commit adultery" are pretty common among most or all groups. I'm skeptical of the claim that Christianity - or its values - have a special place in our society.

I think Christianity is interwoven throughout our histories and was the main influence in our values. Yes the constitutions allowed freedom to believe in God or not and did not insist on a theocracy but I am talking about Christian values which most definitely were an influencing factor. This is something that is even seen today in our political and legal systems. For example

The modern roots of our individual rights and freedoms in the Western world are found in Christianity.
The notion that law and liberty are inseparable is another legacy of Christianity.

I agree with the bolded part, but probably not for the same reason that you had in mind when you wrote it.

In short, and without derailing too much into political stuff, I think Christianity has become too political. I think it's allowed itself to compromise some very important beliefs in exchange for power.

But that's not necessarily the subject of the thread, so I'll leave it there. I don't think corporations or even governments are the problem. I think many modern Christians have mistaken a right to their beliefs to a right to a special place in government. The two are not the same and I don't think Christians should worry about political power.
Ringo

That may be the case in the US but it hasn't happened here yet though it seems to be heading that way. I agree that religion should not get too political but at the same time it seems that unless religious organizations don't position themselves to try and preserve some religious rights in mainstream society they will just be wiped out. When secular society may promote or allow certain policies that go against Christian beliefs and values I think it is important to take a stand and let others know what Christian beliefs are in the matter. For example same sex marriage debate or on abortion. I agree that some go overboard but I think there needs to be some position taken and sometimes that requires some politicization of the issue.

 

[stevevw]

And so:

Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.

But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. -- 1 Peter 4

 

[bèlla]

Considering that we were built on Christian values it seems that we are forgetting our foundations.

If that was correct it doesn’t mean the influences will never shift. The whole concept of freedom is the ability to say yes or no.

It seems some are even getting angry or intolerant of any religion now and see it as not being relevant in today's world. Do you think this trend will continue and will Christianity eventually be totally removed from all public places.

Whether we’re addressing religion or another subject you’re always biased towards the things you love and enjoy. Consider your hobbies. Do you expect others to share your opinion or interests?

Probably not. If they do that’s swell. But religion often inspires a different perspective. The no you could accept for your hobbies becomes offensive for your faith and you feel compelled to change their mind.

It’s still a question of free will. But many are willing to transgress it in deference to their beliefs. The shift you’re encountering is a collective disinterest. They want no part of it.

 

[stevevw]

If that was correct it doesn’t mean the influences will never shift. The whole concept of freedom is the ability to say yes or no.

yes true

Whether we’re addressing religion or another subject you’re always biased towards the things you love and enjoy. Consider your hobbies. Do you expect others to share your opinion or interests?

I think belief is more fundamental to life than a hobby. After all stamp collecting doesn't provoke and influence people and life as much as religion and politics.

Probably not. If they do that’s swell. But religion often inspires a different perspective. The no you could accept for your hobbies becomes offensive for your faith and you feel compelled to change their mind.

It’s still a question of free will. But many are willing to transgress it in deference to their beliefs. The shift you’re encountering is a collective disinterest. They want no part of it.

I think it is more than disinterest. There is a concerted effort to stop Christian belief in any public domain. I think this will lead to stopping things like using the bible as a method to determine truth in legal settings. The issue here is if people think that christian belief is not an important part of society then why would they allow people to use the bible as a way of ensuring people are truthful. If quoting the bible is wrong then swearing on it would be classed as wrong.

The removal of Christianity from main stream society won't happen in one go but gradually with a chipping away from areas of society. We see it happening now with prayer time being stopped in public settings such as the opening of parliament. The stopping of celebrating Christian occasions in schools and ceasing religious education. The attacks on Christians being accused of being bigots for quoting the bible which is followed by organizations disallowing people from practicing their faith.

All these smaller actions add up and will eventually lead to Christianity being disallowed in public forums. If it was just a case of people being disinterested then they would not need to go to the extent of stopping people from practicing Christianity.

 

[bèlla]

yes true

I think belief is more fundamental to life than a hobby. After all stamp collecting doesn't provoke and influence people and life as much as religion and politics.

Beliefs change and often will due to maturity and circumstances.

The issue here is if people think that christian belief is not an important part of society then why would they allow people to use the bible as a way of ensuring people are truthful. If quoting the bible is wrong then swearing on it would be classed as wrong.

I chose Him. My perspective and lifestyle are influenced by my beliefs. But society didn’t do the same. Each person must come to the door and knock. Or respond to His knocking instead.

All these smaller actions add up and will eventually lead to Christianity being disallowed in public forums.

Nothing that you’ve described has affected my walk with God. It hasn’t diminished in any way. I impact others by the quality of my person. My life does the talking. That’s how influence is borne. Not through protests and slurs.

 

[stevevw]

Beliefs change and often will due to maturity and circumstances.

Fundamentally belief doesn't change, well at least Christian beliefs that is. There has been some change around meanings such as a better understanding of what things like hell represents. But the fact that there are consequences for sin and a place where sinners go away from God has not changed.

I chose Him. My perspective and lifestyle are influenced by my beliefs. But society didn’t do the same. Each person must come to the door and knock. Or respond to His knocking instead.

The point is society has been using the bible as a representation of truth, justice and something we measure right and wrong by. With all this criticism of Christian beliefs and the removal of it from secular institutions like schools, the legal system and government do they then remove the bible as well. I feel it is hypocritical that people on the one hand want to say that Christian belief and practice is irrelevant and should not be practiced in mainstream society anymore and then still want to uphold the bibles status in our legal system for example.

That is why I say that we will see the gradual removal of all things Christian from secular society. The government may still allow the bible and Christianity but it will become supplementary rather than a fundamental reference for our institutions to base things on.

Nothing that you’ve described has affected my walk with God. It hasn’t diminished in any way. I impact others by the quality of my person. My life does the talking. That’s how influence is borne. Not through protests and slurs.

yes that is a good point. But I think some may see a Christians example as just being a good citizen. As many say nowadays in trying to diminish Christianity that there is no difference between religious charity and secular charity and you don't need God to be good. This is all part of the mindset I am talking about which aims to discredit Christianity as being anything special and in fact also aims to make out that belief is for fools, trouble makers and the disillusioned who are out of sync with mainstream society. We are seeing this with the challenges to anyone who stands up for their beliefs. As disbelief grows this will become more prevalent.