Do you think religion is being taken out of secular society.

[Resha Caner]

That's what secular means.

That's just a semantic commentary. In a sense, the question could be stated, "Is there any reason for creating a secular society - a society apart from Christ?"

 

[JoeP222w]

Secular Humanist have religion. They worship the false god of Self. They will reject this claim, nonetheless, they follow religious practices.

 

[SkyWriting]

That's just a semantic commentary. In a sense, the question could be stated, "Is there any reason for creating a secular society - a society apart from Christ?"

Yes. Scripture states that not all will follow Jesus
and even those who do will sin. So secular society
handles here that which takes place before final judgment.

 

[AlexDTX]

I have been pondering this question for a little while now and was wondering what others thought. Lately I have noticed that more people, organizations and governments are talking about the irrelevance of religion or religious belief. I am mainly talking about Christianity as in my country Australia we seem to be moving away from it pretty fast. Considering that we were built on Christian values it seems that we are forgetting our foundations.

I think this has been spurred on from the troubles we have had with some of the extremist groups like ISIS which is giving all religion a bad name. I know that there has been less people involved in religion over the pasts few decades and today's young generation are the least religious. I think at least in Australia because we are a multicultural country we are seeing other religions come in and the government is saying we can have any one religion being dominant. They are being too politically correct and saying it may offend other religions if we promote our own christian beliefs.

So now we can't have traditional celebrations like Christmas or Easter and now it is not being acknowledged anymore. In fact the commercial aspect of these occasions is becoming bigger and kids are more likely to believe in Santa Clause. It seems some are even getting angry or intolerant of any religion now and see it as not being relevant in today's world. Do you think this trend will continue and will Christianity eventually be totally removed from all public places.

Interesting. I did not know Australia was built upon a religious foundation. I thought it was used by the British to imprison their criminals.

 

[jal11180]

I think one should be free to practice their religion, but I do fundamentally believe in the separation of church and state.

For example, in Canada the government still pays for the Catholic School Board on top of the public school board, and I think this is wrong.

Where I live I haven't experienced intolerance of religion though, most are happy to let you do your own thing.

First of all, the concept of the separation of church and state, contrary to what people like yourself think, was NEVER included in the Constitution, but, rather, it derived from a misquoted bit of text with absolutely NO legal binding whatsoever, specifically, a letter that one Thomas Jefferson had made to the Danbury Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut. Second, according to NUMEROUS legal rulings, atheism, humanism, and their related ilk ARE, contrary to what you and they might think, religions by default, so since they promote things like a flat Earth (and they also have pseudo-Christians and pseudo-Jews promoting that Luciferian ideology as well) and evolution and its related ilk, then, legally, they hardly have any room to stand on concerning the separation of church and state because what they REALLY mean, as well as what they really want and need, is that they would love to have their own religions become the undisputed power, as well as law, of the land, and if you give that to them, then you not only are an accessory to their hypocrisy, double standards, and elitism, but that you are also anathema maranantha to YAHWEH EL ELOHIM, His Word, and His Kingdom, among other things in your life. Argue otherwise and you will prove this to be all the more true to the world when they see your true character. Now with that being said, the reality is that religion can NEVER be removed from society, for nature abhors a vacuum and, as it is true with the Laws of Thermodynamics, so a similar system is in existence within the spiritual/metaphysical world, namely, "Matter can not be changed or destroyed, it can only be altered," and "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction," and thus when people advocate removing religion from places, what they REALLY mean is to replace the religious status quo with one of their own, thus, in a sense, it is told perfectly well in the classic song by The Who named "Won't Get Fooled Again," specifically with the last two lines of the song that say, "Meet the new boss; same as the old boss."

 

[jal11180]

I agree on your observation (I work in one of the most secular anti-religious environments in the land of Oz), but I don't think (Christian) religion is removing itself from secular society fast enough! If secular society wishes to half reject Christ Jesus and all he stands for then we should, in imitation of Our Lord, allow them the complete freedom to do so, completely. Then the holy message of Christ will stand in contrast to the darkness.

Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone,”

and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble

and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (1 Peter 2)

Were you a REAL Christian, then you would not be celebrating Christmas, Advent, Lent, OR Easter, for the Holy Scriptures NEVER commanded you to follow those holidays, plus they are ALL Luciferian in origin. Furthermore, Thomas Nast, an atheist and Christian and Jew hating cartoonists, made your present form of Santa Claus. While the man by the name of Saint Nicholas was, for the most part, a nice stand up guy (except for his involvement with the Council of Nicea and the Roman Catholic "church"), he did not deserve to be made fun of in such a manner, even IF Roman Catholicism is one of the biggest Luciferian cults in the world. The holy days that you ARE supposed to be following are the ones that were mentioned for the Israelites to follow, namely, the Passover, the Feast of Tabernacles, and such. Finally, the actual birth date of YAHASHUA HA'MASHIACH was more likely in the MIDDLE of the year, or, more specifically, the end of the Jewish year and the middle of the Gregorian year, as opposed to the end of the Gregorian year. I will tell you more information on that material should you need that in your life.

 

[Anguspure]

Sure (Luke 5:16). But the point is not to be different to be different. If one drives the Church to be different just to be able to tell it's different, that's nonsense. Nor is the point to drive out the sinners. That assumes there is someone perfect who can remain behind (usually the person who is driving people out).

Seeking comfort from the Church is not the same as a litmus test.

Its not difference for the sake of difference, rather it is difference for the sake of the Kingdom of Love.
Sinners are not part of the Church and so are not driven out, rather they are invited (just as we are) to purify themselves through Christ Jesus, becoming set apart from Him and thereby enter the Kingdom which is the Church.

Furthermore no person can drive another person out of the Church it is Christ alone that is the Head of the Body, if there is anybody that is perfect and remains behind it is Him, but I don't see Him doing this.

We are called to go out, not to bring compromise in (and I am talking about the body of people here, not some institution, organisation or building). So by all means invite people to our rituals, services and social clubs, but it should be realized that nobody is a part of the Church unless they are first made righteous through Christ Jesus.

 

[Received]

I have been pondering this question for a little while now and was wondering what others thought. Lately I have noticed that more people, organizations and governments are talking about the irrelevance of religion or religious belief. I am mainly talking about Christianity as in my country Australia we seem to be moving away from it pretty fast. Considering that we were built on Christian values it seems that we are forgetting our foundations.

I think this has been spurred on from the troubles we have had with some of the extremist groups like ISIS which is giving all religion a bad name. I know that there has been less people involved in religion over the pasts few decades and today's young generation are the least religious. I think at least in Australia because we are a multicultural country we are seeing other religions come in and the government is saying we can have any one religion being dominant. They are being too politically correct and saying it may offend other religions if we promote our own christian beliefs.

So now we can't have traditional celebrations like Christmas or Easter and now it is not being acknowledged anymore. In fact the commercial aspect of these occasions is becoming bigger and kids are more likely to believe in Santa Clause. It seems some are even getting angry or intolerant of any religion now and see it as not being relevant in today's world. Do you think this trend will continue and will Christianity eventually be totally removed from all public places.

I think in some sense it might be true that authentic religion has never really been integrated too much with secular society, given that so many people have used (and still use) religion as a means for groupthink and tribalism, treating ideas about God like odors animals use to determine if another animal belongs to its group or if it should be eaten alive. I don't like the idea of religion being expressed in secular society through institutions (i.e., laws or practices, like having the ten commandments on display, etc.). Religion can only be expressed through the positively changed characters of those who adhere to it; that's the stuff that woos people to consider the truth. All the other stuff -- the ten commandments in a public place, trying to get prayer back in schools, even teaching creationism next to evolution (creationism is actually a philosophical concept and not a scientific one, and we definitely need more critical thinking taught in our schools, which would be a great place to have the "how does evolution jive (or not) with creation" debate), etc. -- is window dressing for tribal theism.

But there's definitely more confusion about religion given the influence of bad secular philosophical ideas, like scientism (the idea that science is the limit of truth, a self-negating statement), but also there's the fact that the church (with a few shining exceptions, like Timothy Keller's ministry) can't keep up with the intellectual climate by espousing a reasonable, acceptable understanding of God.

Like take this thread I made a few years back asking atheists and agnostics to rate their sense of how much sense God makes, with agnostics responding pretty much evenly across the three responses whereas atheists hugely chose the option that "God makes no sense and/or is absurd": Atheists/Agnostics: How Much Sense Does God Make?.

What does this tell you? That lots of folks are atheists at least ostensibly because the conceptualizations of God they've been given aren't "grown up" enough to motivate them to investigate religion. You can't believe in what makes no sense to you.

 

[Anguspure]

Were you a REAL Christian, then you would not be celebrating Christmas, Advent, Lent, OR Easter, for the Holy Scriptures NEVER commanded you to follow those holidays, plus they are ALL Luciferian in origin. Furthermore, Thomas Nast, an atheist and Christian and Jew hating cartoonists, made your present form of Santa Claus. While the man by the name of Saint Nicholas was, for the most part, a nice stand up guy (except for his involvement with the Council of Nicea and the Roman Catholic "church"), he did not deserve to be made fun of in such a manner, even IF Roman Catholicism is one of the biggest Luciferian cults in the world. The holy days that you ARE supposed to be following are the ones that were mentioned for the Israelites to follow, namely, the Passover, the Feast of Tabernacles, and such. Finally, the actual birth date of YAHASHUA HA'MASHIACH was more likely in the MIDDLE of the year, or, more specifically, the end of the Jewish year and the middle of the Gregorian year, as opposed to the end of the Gregorian year. I will tell you more information on that material should you need that in your life.

Its all been said before, for about 2000 years now: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2)

 

[Resha Caner]

Yes. Scripture states that not all will follow Jesus
and even those who do will sin. So secular society
handles here that which takes place before final judgment.

That sounds more like a consequence than a purpose. Are you saying you would encourage those in secular society to remain there? After all, if they all gave it up, it wouldn't exist, and the purpose would remain unfulfilled.

Sinners are not part of the Church ...

Are you saying you don't sin?

So by all means invite people to our rituals, services and social clubs, but it should be realized that nobody is a part of the Church unless they are first made righteous through Christ Jesus.

Do you know who is in and who is out? Is it the ... lawyers.

 

[Anguspure]

Are you saying you don't sin?

I am saying that I and anybody else who believes are righteous by virtue of Christ Jesus, as opposed to one who rejects Him and remains in sin.
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5)

Do you know who is in and who is out? Is it the ... lawyers.

The gift of salvation is free to all who believe and look to Christ Jesus alone for their righteousness.

We who believe on Him and are learning to follow Him, our Rabbi, are the body of Christ, the Church and the Kingdom.

We are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Peter 2)

 

[Resha Caner]

The gift of salvation is free to all who believe and look to Christ Jesus alone for their righteousness.

Thanks for the clarification. As I read your earlier replies, I agreed with most of what you wrote, but it took some odd turns here and there (lawyers and accountants?). I think we agree for the most part.

 

[Anguspure]

Thanks for the clarification. As I read your earlier replies, I agreed with most of what you wrote, but it took some odd turns here and there (lawyers and accountants?). I think we agree for the most part.

A small anecdote: After having run over the material of 101 accounting, I was hardly ever prouder of my wife than when she failed her accounting paper at university the first time around. It showed that she had a great difficulty with being anything other than face value honest.
So between that and my long and bitter experience with the NZ tax department (who encouraged me to find "ways" to reduce my declared income) I have come to realize that the accountants and lawyers fit very well into the picture of the Tax collectors presented biblically.

 

[jal11180]

Its all been said before, for about 2000 years now: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2)

...and that gives you justification to disobey what YAHWEH EL ELOHIM has COMMANDED us to do as well as what He commanded us NOT to do in our lives? You represent Romans 1.

 

[Anguspure]

...and that gives you justification to disobey what YAHWEH EL ELOHIM has COMMANDED us to do as well as what He commanded us NOT to do in our lives? You represent Romans 1.

I live by the Spirit and I am free.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.....Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

 

[stevevw]

That's what secular means.

Thanks for that, I should have said do you think society is becoming more secular.

 

[stevevw]

Separation of church and state IS government not interfering with religious practices.
They are the same issue.

But dont you think they are by taking actions like they have in Australia for example in changing Christmas from the traditional way most have known it with the manger and three wise men to a more politically correct version of happy holidays. At the same time they seem to allow Christmas with Santa Clause and more kids are believing in good old St Nick.

Then when they want to stand up to the extremists and how their version of religion is destroying the world they want to stand on their Christian values. It seems they are sending a lot of mixed messages and its a wonder that people end up taking sides and blaming religion for everything. That is probably the point that its humans who are projecting their interpretations of what belief is when we already have an example in Jesus.

 

[SkyWriting]

But dont you think they are by taking actions like they have in Australia for example in changing Christmas from the traditional way most have known it with the manger and three wise men to a more politically correct version of happy holidays. At the same time they seem to allow Christmas with Santa Clause and more kids are believing in good old St Nick.

Then when they want to stand up to the extremists and how their version of religion is destroying the world they want to stand on their Christian values. It seems they are sending a lot of mixed messages and its a wonder that people end up taking sides and blaming religion for everything. That is probably the point that its humans who are projecting their interpretations of what belief is when we already have an example in Jesus.

I'm....not....really....concerned with how "secular society"
celebrates the holidays. Am I supposed to be?

The plan (the constitution) and it's amendments is to
not allow government to interfere with religious practices.

So I expect secular displays to become less influenced
by religion as well. Christmas and Easter will likely be
replaced by secular names one day.

A Catholic calendar has WAY more celebration days
than a secular one.

 

[SkyWriting]

Thanks for that, I should have said do you think society is becoming more secular.

Absolutely is. Try going to sunday morning, sunday night, and wednesday night
services some time and you'll likely feel that your life has grown away from such established church systems.

Worship Services:
Joint Worship 10 AM,
Evening Worship 4:00 PM
Wednesday’s In the Word 7:00 pm

 

[Greg J.]

Based on the Constitution and 1st Amendment (which is not the foundation of the U.S. judicial system), the government is not to show favoritism among religions. So government could even be promoting religion as long as it wasn't giving preference to any of them over others. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court and case law has transformed that into something else entirely. Now the government is the most powerful force for the religion of Atheism. (To an Aetheist, Jesus is a concept, not a person/God. They don't want that concept in their lives. Atheism is a concept, too, and lots of people don't want it in their lives, either.)