Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

[Open Heart]

Stop and think about it, Did a jewish person die today in an unsaved state?

I don't know. I don't judge who is going to hell. I leave that up to God in his perfect judgment.

 

[Open Heart]

ummm it kinda sounds like you are confusing, yo say not israel, but includes israel. Paul was saying no to all lineage as to becoming the people of God. That would include all.

I'm not confused in the slightest. The people of God is a large circle. Inside the large circle is a much smaller circle called Israel, whose gifts and callings are IRREVOCABLE.

 

[Frogster]

I don't know. I don't judge who is going to hell. I leave that up to God in his perfect judgment.

well.. i mean paul said some are storing up wrath. It is just common sense that some Jews have died in an unsaved state, as gentiles have.

 

[Catherineanne]

Dr Ariella Oppenheim, a biologist of Hebrew University, published an in depth study of Jewish origin and DNA. She found that virtually all those people who call themselves Jews because they hold the Babylonian Talmudic principles as religion are of Khazar blood.

An interesting discovery was that a large number of Palestinians had more Israelite blood than the "Jews" that had been ejecting and persecuting the Palestinians since 1948.

Some Palestinians even had a DNA chromosome that proved that they were "Cohens". The "Cohens" were workers at the ancient temple and synagogues of Judah.

Final definitive proof was given by a study done at Johns Hopkins University. An ex Israeli army officer, Dr Eran Elhaik of the Institute of Genetic Medicine of the School of Medicine at JHU published results of DNA studies that shows that the Khazarians who converted to Judaism circa 740 - 800AD were the ancestors of modern day Jewry.

I have DNA connections to the Vikings. Doesn't make me a Viking.

 

[Open Heart]

well.. i mean paul said some are storing up wrath. It is just common sense that some Jews have died in an unsaved state, as gentiles have.

I would think it would make sense, but I again, I won't make a statement on it, as I don't know. I'll let God decide in his wisdom and perfect judgment.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm bowing out of this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

If you do what is the reason for your belief?

Romans 9 says that in some cases they are - but they have to be "Children of the promise" -- those who follow the Spirit of God leading them to salvation -- mere physical parentage does not save. Never did after the fall of Adam.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So if we ask if the Jews are still chosen, the answer is yes. Insofar as we are properly defining what being chosen means in this context. Because what happened at Sinai is not erased, that still happened, that is still the historical reality of who and what the Jewish people are and that won't ever change. But what happened at Sinai was not for the eternal salvation of the Jewish people, it is--and only is--Christ's death and resurrection that brings us eternal salvation and reconciliation with God with the promise and hope of eternal life. Moses cannot do what Christ has done; but Moses looks forward to Christ and what Christ has done goes backward to Moses, to Abraham, and all the Patriarchs, even unto Adam.

-CryptoLutheran

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom 9
4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm bowing out of this thread.

Just when things were getting interesting..

 

[Open Heart]

Romans 9 says that in some cases they are - but they have to be "Children of the promise" -- those who follow the Spirit of God leading them to salvation -- mere physical parentage does not save. Never did after the fall of Adam.

Romans 11:28 as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
Romans 11:26 all Israel will be saved.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

For myself, I'm so emotionally involved in the whole thing that I don't think I can see clearly. It's my people, my family, my friends, my dear ones. I attend their bar mitzvahs, sit down to Passover meals with them, sing psalms with them, pray with them, tell yiddish jokes with them... Some of them I think are closer to God than I am. And yet I wish they knew Christ as I know him. I hear Paul's anguish for Israel, because I know it too. And yet it is God himself who has placed a veil over their eyes for the sake of the gentiles. I can only leave them in God's loving hands.

You are correct that veils prevent Jews from seeing the light. I would not be so passive in leaving them in God's loving hands. God has punished Jews most severely many times in the past for their rejection of him. I wish the Jews would even following their old teachings reflect on how they were being punished even in the Holocaust. Do the faithful Jews not acknowledge that they may be responsible for pain come to them? The continued unrest in the Middle East against Israel is another sign that peace will not come to the Jews with their current belief.

Yes, Rom 11 does allude to a day when the Jews will return to true faith. My only fear is thinking about what pain even more severe than what they have already experienced will it take to get the stubborn people to change.

 

[Open Heart]

God has punished Jews most severely many times in the past for their rejection of him.

How can God punish them when He is the very reason they cannot see? You can't have it both ways.

 

[Open Heart]

Do the faithful Jews not acknowledge that they may be responsible for pain come to them?

We do. We say it was hate for no reason that caused the destruction of the Temple, and when we have learned to love for no reason, the Third Temple will be rebuilt.

The story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza is told as an illustration of this hate without a reason. http://www.shortvort.com/tisha-bav/...-the-reason-for-the-destruction-of-the-temple

 

[Open Heart]

Yes, Rom 11 does allude to a day when the Jews will return to true faith.

But more than that, Romans 11 SPECIFICALLY states that although the gospel is withheld from Jews, that they are STILL part of the ELECT (the saved).
Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

How can God punish them when He is the very reason they cannot see? You can't have it both ways.

I agreed that veils cover the Jews. I would not say that God did it.

As far as God punishing people. All deserve punishment. He may freely punish any that he sees fit to. As to the history of Israel; the first temple was destroyed because the Jews rejected God and followed false gods, even sacrificing their own children. Likewise the second temple was destroyed because the Jews largely rejected Jesus as Christ. There will be no third temple. The old covenant has been satisfied with Jesus' death. Sacrifices are done.

2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

But more than that, Romans 11 SPECIFICALLY states that although the gospel is withheld from Jews, that they are STILL part of the ELECT (the saved).
Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Jesus said this of the Jews that rejected him;
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I agree that God still loves the Jews and wants them to return to him. That does not make them all elect. I read Rom 11 as pointing to a time in the future when the Jews will accept Jesus in large numbers.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 11:28 as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
Romans 11:26 all Israel will be saved.

Paul says "and so" all Israel will be saved. His "And so" is "And so in THIS way" -- the way in Romans 11 that reaches BOTH Jews AND gentiles grafting them ALL into the SAME tree "for they are not all Israel who are merely children of the flesh"

If the Romans 2 and Romans 9 statements are right about gentiles being Jews - then the term "Israel" has to include saved gentiles.

 

[BobRyan]

But more than that, Romans 11 SPECIFICALLY states that although the gospel is withheld from Jews, that they are STILL part of the ELECT (the saved).
Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Romans 11 says they are cast out "due to unbelief and God is able to graft them BACK In AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief" - There is no such thing as going to heaven - still at war with God.

Paul says he is doing whatever he can so that "if by any means I might save some of them" Romans 11

 

[Open Heart]

I agreed that veils cover the Jews. I would not say that God did it.

Romans 11:8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

 

[Open Heart]

Jesus said this of the Jews that rejected him;
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I agree that God still loves the Jews and wants them to return to him. That does not make them all elect. I read Rom 11 as pointing to a time in the future when the Jews will accept Jesus in large numbers.

Yet Romans 11:28 is written in present tense, not future tense. Believe what you want, but I think you are editing out scripture because it is inconvenient.