Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

[MoreCoffee]

Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

If you do what is the reason for your belief?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

If you do what is the reason for your belief?

Yes. But the question is "chosen for what?" The choosing of the Jewish people was to be the recipients of that covenant God established with them on Sinai and to receive the Torah. That is their chosenness. And these things prefigure the realities that came to fruition in Jesus.

St. Paul seems clear that the significance of the Jewish people and the history of the covenants and giving of the Torah (etc) can be dismissed; but those things aren't what, fundamentally, matter. What matters is Christ. And in Christ Jew and Gentile together are the chosen of God, with an election of grace that makes them the united people of God in Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes. But the question is "chosen for what?" The choosing of the Jewish people was to be the recipients of that covenant God established with them on Sinai and to receive the Torah. That is their chosenness. And these things prefigure the realities that came to fruition in Jesus.

St. Paul seems clear that the significance of the Jewish people and the history of the covenants and giving of the Torah (etc) can be dismissed; but those things aren't what, fundamentally, matter. What matters is Christ. And in Christ Jew and Gentile together are the chosen of God, with an election of grace that makes them the united people of God in Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

I think your answer means "No, being a physical (genetic) descendent of Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob) NOW doesn't make one God's chosen (elect)" But I may be misreading you. I agree with the second part of your reply. Saint Paul goes to considerable length to reiterate what the Lord Jesus Christ taught when he said - and the words he used a very harsh - "So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, 'You will become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father." They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." "(John 8:31-47 ESV) Of course the Lord's words were addressed to people who "had believed him" back then, and they were Jewish people but not Rabbinic because Rabbinic Judaism was not yet in existence and the temple and the priesthood were still more or less intact in Jesus' day. But the conversation is instructive insofar as it makes it very clear that the Lord Jesus Christ taught what saint Paul learned to teach in his letter to the Galatians and his letters to the Romans, Ephesians, and others.

By the way, if you and I were to get our genes tested there's a very high probability that we'd both have at least one ancestor who would be identified as a Jew (probably Ashkenazi but also possibly Saphardi) and that would, in theory, make us both descendants of Abraham. But I do not think that is how many (who rely on natural descent) will interpret the idea of being one of God's chosen people.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

If a person thinks a blood descendant of Abraham gets Abraham's promises, how much jew blood is required for that? My great-great grandmother was jewish. Does this mean I get a free pass into the promise?

 

[ViaCrucis]

The emphasis of my point was "chosen for what?"

What was meant when looking back at where God chose the Jewish people, God chose them to be a covenant people who received and honored His instructions as contained in the Torah. That isn't the chosenness that we mean when we refer to our chosenness in Christ, chosen in Christ for salvation.

So if the question is "Are the Jews chosen?" it is important that we answer "chosen for what?" To be the recipients of the covenant which God established with them on Mt. Sinai? Well the answer to that seems like an obvious yes to me. That is what being the "chosen people" meant, and continues to mean, for the Jewish people.

That reality isn't overturned by the fullness and fulfillment that has come with Christ; being a recipient of the covenant at Sinai does not--and never did--save. Salvation did not come through obedience to the Torah. And salvation was never exclusive to being Jewish. In the Old Testament we frequently see God's promises of rescue and redemption apply to more than just the Children of Israel, but to the nations as well. Those promises have their ultimate fullness in Christ. And in Christ salvation is indeed for Jew and Gentile, for Christ makes the two one, the Gentiles grafted into the olive tree that is Israel; taking two peoples and making them a single people, a new people, in our Lord Jesus.

So if we ask if the Jews are still chosen, the answer is yes. Insofar as we are properly defining what being chosen means in this context. Because what happened at Sinai is not erased, that still happened, that is still the historical reality of who and what the Jewish people are and that won't ever change. But what happened at Sinai was not for the eternal salvation of the Jewish people, it is--and only is--Christ's death and resurrection that brings us eternal salvation and reconciliation with God with the promise and hope of eternal life. Moses cannot do what Christ has done; but Moses looks forward to Christ and what Christ has done goes backward to Moses, to Abraham, and all the Patriarchs, even unto Adam.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[namadirk]

I appreciate the point of view of those who take a purely spiritual approach to this question. However, today we are stuck with a world wide cult of people calling themselves Jews. Research by universities have proven that 97% of those people are not of Israelite stock, but in fact descendents of Askenath, a descendent of Japhet. In fact descendents of GOG/MAGOG.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I appreciate the point of view of those who take a purely spiritual approach to this question. However, today we are stuck with a world wide cult of people calling themselves Jews. Research by universities have proven that 97% of those people are not of Israelite stock, but in fact descendents of Askenath, a descendent of Japhet. In fact descendents of GOG/MAGOG.

Name one university.

I assume that "Askenath" is used here in reference to the Ashkenazim, problem however: It would completely ignore the existence of Sephardim and Mizrahim, among other Jewish groups.

So, again, name one university.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[PaladinValer]

Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

If you do what is the reason for your belief?

No, unless they are part of the Remnant, which either stayed true and believed or converted afterwards.

 

[namadirk]

I appreciate the point of view of those who take a purely spiritual approach to this question. However, today we are stuck with a world wide cult of people calling themselves Jews. Research by universities have proven that 97% of those people are not of Israelite stock, but in fact descendents of Askenath, a descendent of Japhet. In fact descendents of GOG/MAGOG.

Name one university.

I assume that "Askenath" is used here in reference to the Ashkenazim, problem however: It would completely ignore the existence of Sephardim and Mizrahim, among other Jewish groups.

So, again, name one university.

-CryptoLutheran

Dr Ariella Oppenheim, a biologist of Hebrew University, published an in depth study of Jewish origin and DNA. She found that virtually all those people who call themselves Jews because they hold the Babylonian Talmudic principles as religion are of Khazar blood.

An interesting discovery was that a large number of Palestinians had more Israelite blood than the "Jews" that had been ejecting and persecuting the Palestinians since 1948.

Some Palestinians even had a DNA chromosome that proved that they were "Cohens". The "Cohens" were workers at the ancient temple and synagogues of Judah.

Final definitive proof was given by a study done at Johns Hopkins University. An ex Israeli army officer, Dr Eran Elhaik of the Institute of Genetic Medicine of the School of Medicine at JHU published results of DNA studies that shows that the Khazarians who converted to Judaism circa 740 - 800AD were the ancestors of modern day Jewry.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Dr Ariella Oppenheim, a biologist of Hebrew University, published an in depth study of Jewish origin and DNA. She found that virtually all those people who call themselves Jews because they hold the Babylonian Talmudic principles as religion are of Khazar blood.

An interesting discovery was that a large number of Palestinians had more Israelite blood than the "Jews" that had been ejecting and persecuting the Palestinians since 1948.

Some Palestinians even had a DNA chromosome that proved that they were "Cohens". The "Cohens" were workers at the ancient temple and synagogues of Judah.

Final definitive proof was given by a study done at Johns Hopkins University. An ex Israeli army officer, Dr Eran Elhaik of the Institute of Genetic Medicine of the School of Medicine at JHU published results of DNA studies that shows that the Khazarians who converted to Judaism circa 740 - 800AD were the ancestors of modern day Jewry.

Even ancestors of Yemenite Jews who have been in the Arabian peninsula since before the Khazar Khanate even existed? Ancestral to the Mizrahim--the Jews of Palestine, Syria, and Mesopotamia?

How did Khazars manage to to travel all the way from the Asian steppe in the 9th century and become ancestors to all the Sephardim in the Iberian peninsula during the Ummayyid occupation of the peninsula?

Here's the thing: The Khazar theory is bogus.

Further, your argument involved a supposed son of Japheth.

I'm quite confident that Palestinians have some Jewish and Samaritan ancestry, but that's not what I'm incredulous about.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

When looking up Dr. Oppenheim I mostly found websites seeking to perpetrate the "Jews are Khazars" myth.

But I did manage to find this article, which was co authored by Dr. Ariella Oppenheim,

"Ashkenazi Jews consolidated into a distinct ethnicity in Germany during the Middle Ages and spread eastwards to Poland and Russia in the 13th century (Ben-Sasson 1976). Previous studies of Y chromosome polymorphisms reported a small European contribution to the Ashkenazi paternal gene pool (Santachiara-Benerecetti et al. 1993; Hammer et al. 2000). In our sample, this low-level gene flow may be reflected in the Eu 19 chromosomes, which are found at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews and which are very frequent in Eastern Europeans (54%–60%; Semino et al. 2000). Alternatively, it is attractive to hypothesize that Ashkenazim with Eu 19 chromosomes represent descendents of the Khazars, originally a Turkic tribe from Central Asia, who settled in southern Russia and eastern Ukraine and converted en masse to Judaism in the ninth century of the present era, as described by Yehuda Ha-Levi in 1140 a.d. (Dunlop 1954)."

Funny, however, that the paper presents the Khazar hypothesis as A) for Ashkenazim distinctly and B) as an "attractive" "alternative" hypothesis. Not as definite by any stretch of the imagination.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[SAAN]

Are the current people in Israel the descendants of Abraham? More than likely not, since just about all research shows they migrated into the area.

Jesus spoke of them.
Revelation 3:9 (NKJV)
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

 

[Messy]

Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

If you do what is the reason for your belief?

No not all, he has a lot of natural descendants, not only from Sarah.

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[namadirk]

When looking up Dr. Oppenheim I mostly found websites seeking to perpetrate the "Jews are Khazars" myth.

But I did manage to find this article, which was co authored by Dr. Ariella Oppenheim,

"Ashkenazi Jews consolidated into a distinct ethnicity in Germany during the Middle Ages and spread eastwards to Poland and Russia in the 13th century (Ben-Sasson 1976). Previous studies of Y chromosome polymorphisms reported a small European contribution to the Ashkenazi paternal gene pool (Santachiara-Benerecetti et al. 1993; Hammer et al. 2000). In our sample, this low-level gene flow may be reflected in the Eu 19 chromosomes, which are found at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews and which are very frequent in Eastern Europeans (54%–60%; Semino et al. 2000). Alternatively, it is attractive to hypothesize that Ashkenazim with Eu 19 chromosomes represent descendents of the Khazars, originally a Turkic tribe from Central Asia, who settled in southern Russia and eastern Ukraine and converted en masse to Judaism in the ninth century of the present era, as described by Yehuda Ha-Levi in 1140 a.d. (Dunlop 1954)."

Funny, however, that the paper presents the Khazar hypothesis as A) for Ashkenazim distinctly and B) as an "attractive" "alternative" hypothesis. Not as definite by any stretch of the imagination.

-CryptoLutheran

You should really embark on an extensive reading process. I even met one Jewish guy who thought that seeing that Hollywood circulate so much "TRUTH", Jurasic park is also a true reflection of history. I bet you believe in exactly six million. International Red Cross has much lower figures and so has the Jewish world atlas. However: Please go ahead and belief what you feel comfortable with - its only Jewish.
If you really want to go on a diet of paranoya, you should subscribe to the daily edition of the following news papers. Good luck.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/
http://www.jta.org/
http://unitedwithisrael.org/
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/

 

[MoreCoffee]

If a person thinks a blood descendant of Abraham gets Abraham's promises, how much jew blood is required for that? My great-great grandmother was jewish. Does this mean I get a free pass into the promise?

Some from among the Christian Zionist faction of evangelicalism would say yes one such as you does get a free pass to eternal life even if that one personally hated and utterly detested Jesus Christ.

 

[football5680]

Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

Not really. Modern Judaism is a Christ denying religion so it cannot save them. When it comes to natural descendants, how do you qualify who makes the cut? If I had an ancestor 20 generations ago that was a descendant of Abraham, do I qualify? If the answer is no then most of the people we call Jews today would also be ruled out. If the answer is yes then it makes it largely irrelevant because so many people meet this qualification.

The true descendants of Abraham are those who share his faith and devotion to God.

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad. (John 8:56)

If Abraham was alive he would have accepted Jesus so his true descendants would do the same. Even in the Old Testament, individuals could be cut off from the people of God for their disobedience and rejecting Jesus is a serious transgression.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

And that's why that nation is presently cut off from Christ.. even that was foretold in the OT.

Ignorance of the OT promises to the nation of Israel is what the Apostle to the Gentiles says results in men becoming wise in their own conceits.. Christians today read a few pages of the NT and think that they're experts in theology.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the King of the Jews, they just don't know it yet.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The Lord Jesus Christ is the King of the Jews, they just don't know it yet.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

If you do what is the reason for your belief?

Yes, scripture.

Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Gentile Christians today think themselves more deserving of God's grace than the Jews. Every time I sin, I am so thankful that my salvation is not dependent on my deserving actions. I take great comfort in God's word that his call is irrevocable.

What people fail to understand is that Israel was not the chosen nation of God because of their great faith. God called them stubborn, hardened, disobedient and obstinate. They were chosen according to God's plan. Much of his plan was for Israel to be an official people that would represent God's name, bring his Son and word to the world. If any wish to say that God no longer has plans for a nation of his name or the Jewish state, than they ignorantly proclaim to know God's plan with certainty. While many prophecies are debated, I think the holocaust and reemergence of the state of Israel are clear indications that God still desires that they turn to him and once again become a nation of his people.

 

[Open Heart]

Modern Judaism is a Christ denying religion so it cannot save them.

You need to read all that the catechism says about the Jews, and then read Nostra Aetate. But let's just start with a basic Bible verse: "All Israel shall be saved." Romans 11:26