Did Jesus wear a prayer shawl (tallit)?

[torahgrandma]

More definitive proof from the Scriptures:

Psa 22:18 They part2505 [8762] my garments899 among them, and cast5307 [8686] lots1486 upon my vesture3830.

[FONT=&quot](Psalms 22:18) [/FONT][FONT=&quot] יחלקו2505 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]They part[/FONT][FONT=&quot] בגדי899 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]my garments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] להם1992 ועל5921 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]upon[/FONT][FONT=&quot] לבושׁי3830 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]my vesture[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] יפילו5307 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]among them, and cast[/FONT][FONT=&quot] גורל׃1486 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]lots[/FONT]​

Here is the BDB meaning of the Hebrew word used for the outer garment:


H3830
[FONT=&quot]לבשׁ[/FONT] / [FONT=&quot]לבוּשׁ[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]lebûsh[/FONT]
BDB Definition:
1) clothing, garment, apparel, raiment
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H3847
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1075a

You will notice that neither tsitsit nor kanaph is used in this passage that is referred to in John.19:24

John 19
24 Then they said to one another, Let us not tear it, but let us cast lots about it, whose it will be (that the Scripture
might be fulfilled which said, "They divided My garments among them," and "they threw a lot for My garment." Then
indeed the soldiers did these things. (Psa. 22:18 )

 

[torahgrandma]

You have made a lot of false allegations about me, insinuated things about my beliefs and called me nasty names..... In fact you have done nothing but insult people left and right since you signed on here less than a week ago.

Mrs Wags,

Let's calm down a bit, because there is no need for either of us to act this way plus it is derailing the thread. In the spirit of friendship, let me invite you to bring your renewed covenant thread over here so that we can discuss it without any interruptions and see what we can find when we analyze your elders writing against Scripture. You might want to invite him as well, as I am always interested in making new friends that enjoy discussing the Scriptures.

No hard feelings, okay?

 

[torahgrandma]

You were the one that posted the slurs orgionally and you were the one that brought it up yet again.....

Mrs Wags,

Lets not hold onto any resentment here. I once learned from Shlomo Carelbach that hatred is like poison in ones heart.I said I was sorry.

The words to Shine are an awesome tribute to the God of Israel. If you object to singing praises to Adonai then you should probably skip reading the Psalms.

Ok.Praises to Adonay are Biblical. I was confused, because this is what you stated earlier:

You have a problem with praises being sung to HaShem?

Okay, lets both play nice now and get back on topic.

 

[torahgrandma]

I also noticed, that in the inventory of the clothing worn by the high preist, which has been put together by the temple institute, that there is no tallit listed. If the tallit is a Holy garment, wouldn't the high priest be required to wear one also?

 

[torahgrandma]

Last chance for all the Hebrew roots adherants to answer my question:

Was Jesus wearing His tallit backwards so that the woman with the issue of blood who was standing *behind* Him could touch the tsitsit?

I am ready to kick the field goal

 

[Charles YTK]

Last chance for all the Hebrew roots adherants to answer my question:

Was Jesus wearing His tallit backwards so that the woman with the issue of blood who was standing *behind* Him could touch the tsitsit?

I am ready to kick the field goal

How do you expect anyone to answer this when we do not know what the Garment looked like at that time. And neither do you. Your field goal will be only in your own back yard. If the Tallit was a total over the head garment as indicated by some historians (Sort of like a Poncho ) and had Tzitzi on the four corners then it would have Tzitzi accessable from all directions, front, rear and either side. Some believe that "Four Corners" means "all around" and there was a complete line of Tzitzi all around the border. When I wear a modern Tallit and have it draped over my head, the TziTzi are presnted from any side, however only at a level just below the waste.

It does not matter what great revelation you have about this woman touching him from behind, unless you also know how the Cloak/Tallit/Mantle was constructed and how many Tzitzi it had upon it. And this would only be speculation.

I resent the way you address Messianics in a demeaning way especially when you do not seem to be compelled to reveal anything about yourself, your name, church denomination or affiliation and such. Yet you claim to know me over some years, And are witness to my many "False teachings". I think the difference here is that I have openly presented my positions and provided the thought proces behind them and the scriptural and historical or cultural context for those beliefs. My name is not hidden, and my affiliation and church involvement totally disclosed. You hide in anonimity and make slanderous comments and judgements against everyone here. And you seem to have a great deal of free reign to do so.

So Kick your field Goal, and do your little dance of victory. I do not really care.

 

[torahgrandma]

I have no “church” or any affiliation for that matter, nor am I an apologist for the church or any group Messianic or otherwise. I am only interested in what do the Scriptures say. In your debate with me you have enlisted the following strategies, which clearly go against debate 101:

1) Ambiguity:
Use of a word or phrase that is not clear, and can be taken more than one way (your mantle, hankerchief, shawl arguments)

2) Ad hominem:
Saying that I am anti semitic, etc

3) Invincible ignorance:
Insists of the legitimacy of an idea in spite of the facts presenting demonstrating differently (scripture)

4) Questionable claim:
Can not stand up under investigation because of the wide area that the assertion attempts to cover. (all things of cloth could be tallits)

5) Argument from ignorance:
Insists that a statement is true until proven otherwise (Jesus wore a tallit because modern Jews do, and people in the first century wore shawls)

6) False appeal to authority:
Everyone knows that first century Jews wore tallits because Tim Hegg, Michael Rood, etc says so. (alleged expert source)

This discussion was not for you Charles. It was for the crowd of witnesses that might be misled by this non provable allegation that was started by the Hebrew roots teachers, and is now being parroted by the church. Since you do not know what the supposed tallit that Jesus wore looked like, how can you even be sure that He did wear one?

All of the Hebrew roots experts can say what they want on the MJ forum. Over here it is a bit different landscape where one needs to supply some Scriptural proof for their assertions.



P.S.


Did you ever inform the people about the "Jesus is Lord" belt buckle story relating to the Nazi SS soldiers "fact" that was incorrect? It would be a good correction to issue in the interest of the truth.

 

[Charles YTK]

Did you ever inform the people about the "Jesus is Lord" belt buckle story relating to the Nazi SS soldiers "fact" that was incorrect? It would be a good correction to issue in the interest of the truth.

I could not say if this is an absolute fact or not. I was told this story by a surivor of the death camps. And I have presented this story in this way, as a report of her testimony. I have heard this same report from others as well. So who knows? Many Christians say there never was a holocaust, that the entire thing was made up by the Jews, so maybe it was all contrived after all. Perhpas others will weigh in on this some day.


All of your criticism listed above, is astounding. Just let me say this, use your own posts like a recorded record that they are and that is where you will see these things that you have attributed to me. How unfortunate that you have from the time you entered the discussion tried to make personal attacks against every Messianic who posted to it.


And as I suspected would be the case, no touchdown and no field goal. Even when playing in your own back yard.

I also find it interesting that you, having less than 50 Posts to your account, claim to have such extensive knowledge of me and what I have taught over the years. If anyone has a question my Web Site is linked through CF. I do not hide behind a username.

 

[torahgrandma]

[FONT=&quot]I could not say if this is an absolute fact or not. I was told this story by a surivor of the death camps. And I have presented this story in this way, as a report of her testimony. I have heard this same report from others as well. So who knows?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I have contact with some of the survivors and their children. Many of the survivors spoke German. It is reported tha the Nazi buckle read “Gott mit uns” which is god with us, referring to the norse gods that the Nazi’s relied on. It can be viewed here:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes/buckle.jpeg[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Many Christians say there never was a holocaust, that the entire thing was made up by the Jews, so maybe it was all contrived after all. Perhpas others will weigh in on this some day.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Anyone who denies the holocaust is sick in my opinion. I hope that you were not alluding that I did.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]All of your criticism listed above, is astounding. Just let me say this, use your own posts like a recorded record that they are and that is where you will see these things that you have attributed to me. How unfortunate that you have from the time you entered the discussion tried to make personal attacks against every Messianic who posted to it. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If you consider presenting Biblical facts an attack, then so be it. It is not about Christian, Messianic, or any other designation. It is about what is Biblical truth.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I also find it interesting that you, having less than 50 Posts to your account, claim to have such extensive knowledge of me and what I have taught over the years. If anyone has a question my Web Site is linked through CF. I do not hide behind a username.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I refute your teachings, not you personally Charles. Now why don’t you come on over to the Chanukah thread? I think that after you are on this side where the playing field is a bit more level, you will like it. I refuse to debate on a forum where people mix Scripture,talmud, and the opinion of sages in order to “teach” the Word of the Almighty.

I also want you to know Charles that I do respect the fact that you came over here alone to debate me.
[/FONT]

 

[Charles YTK]

You are mistaken. I did not come here to debate you. I do not even know who you are. I came to post to the thread concerning whether or not Yeshua wore Tallit.

And My opinion has been only this, that scriptural evidence is that Yeshua wore Tzitzi as was specified in the Torah and though we do not know what a tallit might have looked like in that time, we can be sure that he wore his Tzitzi on the acceptable garment and in the acceptable way for his time. This is not too different from your own position, but that was not sufficinet for you. You have continued to try and engage me in rabbit trails of side issues and to defend the Messainic Faith. I don't know what prize or honor you hoped to obtain by sparring with me. I am no one that needs to be defeated to obtain honor.

 

[Wags]

[FONT=&quot]] [/FONT][/COLOR][FONT=&quot]I also want you to know Charles that I do respect the fact that you came over here alone to debate me.
[/FONT]

How could Charles have come over here to debate you? You weren't the OP of this thread, or were you....

 

[torahgrandma]

And My opinion has been only this, that scriptural evidence is that Yeshua wore Tzitzi as was specified in the Torah and though we do not know what a tallit might have looked like in that time, we can be sure that he wore his Tzitzi on the acceptable garment and in the acceptable way for his time.

Lets review some of your earlier comments Charles just to refresh your memory:

[FONT=&quot]Post #35[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The traditional wearing of a Tallit type covering goes back before the 1st century.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I provide a good amount of scriptural proof to demonstrate the practice of Tallit was already well established by the time of Yeshua[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Does the Tallit of Today look exactly as it did in the first century? I do not know. No one does. But it was similar we see in that it was large enough to serve as a small tent like covering, it was used for a wedding canopy, it was woven of a single piece and not a sew work. And it had Tzitai on the four corners.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Post #41[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If I see Yeshua in the scriptures using something that in Jewish culture is done with a Tallit type garment, and I know that the Tallit was already the cutomed method of wearing the Tzitzi, then I can reason that he was wearing the Tallit type garment. The Tallit was in use long before the time of Yeshua. Whereas the Kippah was not, it is a middle ages addition….[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]…. In Johns Gospel Peter arrives at the Tomb and goes inside and he sees the linen burial cloth laying in a pile and folded nicely in a separate place he sees the "Napkin" that had been wrapped around his head. What Napkin, a dinner napkin? I don't think so. And why is it folded with care while the grave wrapping is not? If you are allowed to investigate the Jewish traditions you find that a Jewish man is burried with a Tallit wrapped over his head. And that is probably what the Napkin is. In another place we see that Lazzarat also had a "Napkin " wrapped over his head when he was buried.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Post # 65[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So you have gone to all this trouble to prove that Yeshua did not wear a Tallit and Tzitzi like all other Jewish men of his time? How incredibly sad.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Post #71[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dispite all this rabbit tail the fact remains that the woman who was sick for 38 years touched the "Fringe of his Garment" and was healed, the very thing the Rabbis did for the sick at the time of Yeshua, to touch them with the Tzitzi on their Tallit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Post #78[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sorry but that is not true. Tallit is both biblical and historical as continuous from the time of Moshe. What is a middle ages adaptation is the way the knots are made. (And there are 2 or 3 ways of tying them.) I am not saying it aways looked as it does today. But the wearing of the Garment with the Tzitzi was. Even in your post above when Yeshua criticizes those who enlarged their phalactry, look at the word you found for the border, Tzitzi. That is the fringe and the fringe is connected to the Tallit. In ancient times it was called a Mantle, Or vesture as the Mantle of Elijah. Yeshua is wearing Tallit when the woman touhed his Tzitsi and was healed. Did you think the Tzitzi were sewn to his own skin?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Post #107[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If the Tallit was a total over the head garment as indicated by some historians (Sort of like a Poncho ) and had Tzitzi on the four corners then it would have Tzitzi accessable from all directions, front, rear and either side.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[Der Alte]

I could not say if this is an absolute fact or not. I was told this story by a surivor of the death camps. And I have presented this story in this way, as a report of her testimony. I have heard this same report from others as well. So who knows? Many Christians say there never was a holocaust, that the entire thing was made up by the Jews, so maybe it was all contrived after all. Perhpas others will weigh in on this some day.

You might have heard of Simon Wiesenthal, who died recently. He was a Jewish survivor of the Nazi death camps and devoted the rest of his life to bringing the despicable criminals responsible to justice.

I had an uncle who served in the Army in WWII, his unit captured Dachau and freed all the prisoners. He would not talk about it until about 13 years later when I was stationed there.

When I was there I lived in what had been the SS barracks, shown in this picture. My room was on the 2d floor immediately above the right wing of the German eagle, just visible above the fence to the left of the tree.

The prisoner barracks and gas chambers were about 1/4 mile toward the right from here.

That wagon is full of emaciated bodies "made up by the Jews, so maybe it was all contrived after all"

 

[torahgrandma]

How could Charles have come over here to debate you? You weren't the OP of this thread, or were you....

Hey Mrs Wags,

Still patiently waiting for you to bring your renewed covenant proposition over here so we can discuss it. (deconstruct it) You can post it on this thread if you like:

http://www.christianforums.com/t4908838-hebrew-roots-movement.html

There is no need to always come over here farbissen, instead why not bring some sunshine over here.?Remember what Shlomo Carelbach said about hatred.

 

[LadyGarnetRose]

Actually much of the talmud is written in Middle Aramaic, and not Hebrew. The talmud was written between 2-5 ce which is after Christ, by men who were not under the inspiration of God. The talmud blasphemes Christ. I am not interested in ingesting any leaven, and besides, it is not even accurate historically in many places.

Actually, if you really knew a thing about Talmud you would know that it quotes Rabbi Hillel and Shammai in quantity.

Both of these Rabbi lived before Yeshua.

The Talmud does not blaspheme Yeshua, anywhere. This is an antisemitic attitude that reached it's pinnacle with "The Protocols of the Elder of Zion". A book used to help propagate Nazi Germany and the Third Reich's attempted genocide. Be very careful what antisemitic garbage you spout forth, because a good amount of it is Nazi Propaganda.

As a JEWISH INDIVIDUAL who just so happens to find Yeshua to be Messiah, you want scripture...

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I will teach others the ONLY way to the Father is through the Son. AND I will submit to Torah, lovingly and wholly as best as one can, and will teach others to submit to Torah, as lovingly and wholly as they can.

It is not necessary to adhere to ALL of the laws, but only the laws you are first supposed to adhere to (a Non Levy/Kohanim does not adhere to the laws of the Levy/Kohanim, one who has not taken a Nazarite (Samson) vow shouldn't keep to it, being I am not a farmer I do not have to leave a fallow field so on and so forth you get the point) and also those you CAN adhere to sacrifices, there is no Temple, I am not authorized to build a Temple by the Torah, therefore I cannot offer sacrifice.

And yes, Yeshua wore a Tallit. While it was different than today's Tallit, it was a Tallit.

Clothing styles have changed since Yeshua's time, and even in Yeshua's time styles changed by region.

To say "Well it's not in the BIBLE!" Have you looked through your closet and found a Toga, Cloak, Abayah, Hajab? If you have is it of a single fiber either linen OR wool, but not mixed?

To say "it's not in the bible" therefore it didn't happen is nonsense. We are missing 30 years of Yeshua's life. I will continue to believe He was a Jew that upheld every mitzvot He was required to and could.

 

[Der Alte]

Actually, if you really knew a thing about Talmud you would know that it quotes Rabbi Hillel and Shammai in quantity.

You might be right, but here is where you should have provided citations to support his. OBTW the Talmud is online in more than one place.

The Talmud does not blaspheme Yeshua, anywhere. This is an antisemitic attitude that reached it's pinnacle with "The Protocols of the Elder of Zion". A book used to help propagate Nazi Germany and the Third Reich's attempted genocide. Be very careful what antisemitic garbage you spout forth, because a good amount of it is Nazi Propaganda. . .

You have been misled. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, quoted below, and the unabridged Talmud, it most certainly did and does blaspheme Y'shua.

There is much more than I have quoted at the link. You might also want to check out the article on gentiles. e.g. "Even the best of gentiles is worthy of death." and "The issue [i.e. offspring] of a gentile is as that of a beast."

Jewish Encyclopedia – Jesus of Nazareth - In Jewish Legend:

The Jewish legends in regard to Jesus are found in three sources, each independent of the others—(1) in New Testament apocrypha and Christian polemical works, (2) in the Talmud and the Midrash, and (3) in the life of Jesus ("Toledot Yeshu'") that originated in the Middle Ages.

It ought also to be added that many of the legends have a theological background. For polemical purposes, it was necessary for the Jews to insist on the illegitimacy of Jesus as against the Davidic descent claimed by the Christian Church. Magic may have been ascribed him over against the miracles recorded in the Gospels; and the degrading fate both on earth and hereafter of which the legends speak may be simply directed against the ideas of the assumption and the resurrection of Jesus.

The earliest authenticated passage ascribing illegitimate birth to Jesus is that in Yeb. iv. 3. The mysterious phrase ("that man") cited in this passage as occurring in a family register which R. Simeon ben Azza is said to have found seems to indicate that it refers to Jesus (see Derenbourg in "R. E. J." i. 293), and here occur also the two expressions so often applied to Jesus in later literature— (= "that anonymous one," the name of Jesus being avoided) and (="bastard"; for which in later times was used).

The Talmud also says that Jesus was in Egypt in early manhood. R. Joshua b. Peraḥyah is said to have fled with his pupil Jesus to Alexandria in order to escape the persecutions of the Jewish king Yannai (103-76 B.C.); on their return Jesus made a remark on the not faultless beauty of their hostess, whereupon R. Joshua excommunicated him; and when Jesus approached him again and was not received he set up a brick for his god, and led all Israel into apostasy (Sanh. 107b; Soṭah 47a; Yer. Ḥag. 77d). This account is supplemented by the statement, made on the assumption that Ben Sṭada is identical with Ben Pandera, that Ben Sṭada brought magic from Egypt (Shab. 104b).

he references to Yannai, Salome Alexandra, and Joshua b. Peraḥyah indicate that according to the Jewish legends the advent of Jesus took place just one century before the actual historical date; and some medieval apologists for Judaism, as Naḥmanides and Salman Ẓebi, based on this fact their assertion that the "Yeshu'" mentioned in the Talmud was not identical with Jesus; this, however, is merely a subterfuge.

Jesus as Magician.

According to Celsus (in Origen, "Contra Celsum," i. 28) and to the Talmud (Shab. 104b), Jesus learned magic in Egypt and performed his miracles by means of it; the latter work, in addition, states that he cut the magic formulas into his skin. It does not mention, however, the nature of his magic performances (Tosef., Shab. xi. 4; Yer. Shab. 13d); but as it states that the disciples of Jesus healed the sick "in the name of Jesus Pandera" (Yer. Shab. 14d; 'Ab. Zarah 27b; Eccl. R. i. 8) it may be assumed that its author held the miracles of Jesus also to have been miraculous cures.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=254&letter=J#1009​

 

[LadyGarnetRose]

You might be right, but here is where you should have provided citations to support his. OBTW the Talmud is online in more than one place.

To those who have actually taken the time to do a bit of research on their own about Talmud, rather than listening to Anti-semitic propaganda, to have to quote this wouldn't even be a thought.

You have been misled. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, quoted below, and the unabridged Talmud, it most certainly did and does blaspheme Y'shua.

I have not been misled by anything. I study Talmud, and nowhere have I found any of the quotes that circulate around the web, and other places regarding the blasphemy of Yeshua.

Many of those supposed chapter and verses...do not even exist in any form within Talmud.

The Jewish Encyclopedia is not the be all end all of Judaism. That is especially true on Talmud.

In fact, the quotes you showed me do not represent that of the majority of Jewish thought on Yeshua.

I recommend readings from the JPS rather than Funk and Wagnalls if you wish to learn about Judaism and our culture.

There is much more than I have quoted at the link. You might also want to check out the article on gentiles. e.g. "Even the best of gentiles is worthy of death." and "The issue [i.e. offspring] of a gentile is as that of a beast."

That entire quote, contradicts the Torah. Which again discredits the supposed Jewish Encyclopedia a bit more.

The Mitzvot regarding gentiles are, 1, To love the stranger, Deut. 10:19, 2, Not to wrong the stranger in speech, Ex. 22:20, 3, Not to wrong the stranger in selling or buying, Ex. 22:20, 4, Not to intermarry, Deut 7:3, 5, To exact a debt, Deut. 15:3, 6, To lend at interest Deut. 23:21.

 

[Der Alte]

To those who have actually taken the time to do a bit of research on their own about Talmud, rather than listening to Anti-semitic propaganda, to have to quote this wouldn't even be a thought.

I have studied, that is why I quoted a JEWISH source. Are you saying that the JEWISH encyclopedia is anti-Semitic because it contradicts what you have chosen to believe?

I have not been misled by anything. I study Talmud, and nowhere have I found any of the quotes that circulate around the web, and other places regarding the blasphemy of Yeshua.

Have you looked up any of the citations in the uncensored Talmud, which was quoted by JEWISH scholars in the JEWISH encyclopedia?

Many of those supposed chapter and verses...do not even exist in any form within Talmud.

Which ones do not exist? For example, this one is copied from Sanhedrin 107.b. in my copy of the uncensored Talmud, which OBTW was also quoted in the JEWISH encyclopedia.

II Kings V, 27. The uncensored edition continues: What of R. Joshua b. Perahjah? — When King Jannai slew our Rabbis, R. Joshua b. Perahjah (and Jesus) fled to Alexandria of Egypt. On the resumption of peace, Simeon b. Shetach sent to him: 'From me, (Jerusalem) the holy city, to thee, Alexandria of Egypt (my sister). My husband dwelleth within thee and I am desolate.' He arose, went, and found himself in a certain inn, where great honour was shewn him. 'How beautiful is this Acsania!' (The word denotes both inn and innkeeper. R. Joshua used it in the first sense; the answer assumes the second to be meant.) Thereupon (Jesus) observed, 'Rabbi, her eyes are narrow.' 'Wretch,' he rebuked him, 'dost thou thus engage thyself.' He sounded four hundred trumpets and excommunicated him. He (Jesus) came before him many times pleading, 'Receive me!' But he would pay no heed to him. One day he (R. Joshua) was reciting the Shema', when Jesus came before him. He intended to receive him and made a sign to him. He (Jesus) thinking that it was to repel him, went, put up a brick, and worshipped it. 'Repent,' said he (R. Joshua) to him. He replied, 'I have thus learned from thee: He who sins and causes others to sin is not afforded the means of repentance.' And a Master has said, 'Jesus the Nazarene practised magic and led Israel astray.'​

The Jewish Encyclopedia is not the be all end all of Judaism. That is especially true on Talmud.

In fact, the quotes you showed me do not represent that of the majority of Jewish thought on Yeshua.

Logical fallacy, muddying the water. What you think or suppose is or is not representative of Judaism is irrelevant.

I recommend readings from the JPS rather than Funk and Wagnalls if you wish to learn about Judaism and our culture.

More logical fallacy. A partial list of the editors of the JEWISH encyclopedia. perhaps you should not comment on something you know nothing about. I'm real sorry that the truth does not fit your assumptions and presuppositions.

ISRAEL ABRAHAMS, M.A.,
Coeditor of "The Jewish Quarterly Review"; Author of "Jewish Life in the Middle Ages," etc.; Reader in Talmudic, Cambridge University, England.

M. BRANN, Ph.D.,
Professor in the Jewish Theological Seminary, Breslau, Germany; Editor of "Monatsschrift füCr Geschichte und Wissenschaft des Judenthums."

H. BRODY, Ph.D.,
Rabbi, Nachod, Bohemia, Austria; Coeditor of "Zeitschrift für Hebräische Bibliographie."

ABRAHAM DANON,
Principal of the Jewish Theological Seminary, Constantinople, Turkey.

MICHAEL FRIEDLÄNDER, Ph.D.,
Principal of Jews' College, London, England; Author of "The Jewish Religion," etc.

M. GÜDEMANN, Ph.D.,
Chief Rabbi of Vienna, Austria.

ZADOC KAHN,
Chief Rabbi of France, Honorary President of the Alliance Israélite Universelle; Officer of the Legion of Honor, Paris, France.

M. KAYSERLING, Ph.D.
(Deceased),
Late Rabbi, Budapest, Hungary; Late Corresponding Member of the Royal Academy of History, Madrid, Spain.

ISRAEL LÉVI,
Professor in the Jewish Theological Seminary, Editor of "Revue des Etudes Juives," Paris, France.

EUDE LOLLI, D.D.
(Deceased),
Late Chief Rabbi of Padua; Late Professor of Hebrew at the University, Padua, Italy.

IMMANUEL LÖW, Ph.D.,
Chief Rabbi of Szegedin, Hungary; Author of "Die Aramäischen Pflanzennamen."

S. H. MARGULIES, Ph.D.,
Principal of the Jewish Theological Seminary; Chief Rabbi of Florence, Italy.

SAMUEL POZNANSKI, Ph.D.,
Rabbi in Warsaw, Russia.

BERNARD DRACHMAN, Ph.D.,
Rabbi of the Congregation Zichron Ephraim; Instructor in the Bible and in Hebrew Grammar, Jewish Theological Seminary of America, New York.

B. FELSENTHAL, Ph.D.,
Rabbi Emeritus of Zion Congregation, Chicago, Ill.; Author of "A Practical Grammar of the Hebrew Language."

GUSTAV GOTTHEIL, Ph.D.
(Deceased),
Late Rabbi Emeritus of Temple Emanu-El, New York.

MARCUS JASTROW, Ph.D.
(Deceased),
Late Rabbi Emeritus of the Congregation Rodef Shalom, Philadelphia, Pa.; Author of "Dictionary of the Talmud."

H. PEREIRA MENDES, M.D.,
Rabbi of the Shearith Israel Congregation (Spanish and Portuguese), New York; President of the Board of Jewish Ministers, New York.

MOSES MIELZINER, Ph.D., D.D.
(Deceased),
Late President of the Hebrew Union College, Cincinnati, Ohio; Author of "Introduction to the Talmud."

DAVID PHILIPSON, D.D.,
Rabbi of the Congregation B'ne Israel; Professor of Homiletics, Hebrew Union College, Cincinnati, Ohio; President of Hebrew Sabbath School Union of America.

SOLOMON SCHECHTER, M.A., Litt.D.,
President of the Faculty of the Jewish Theological Seminary of America, New York; Author of "Studies in Judaism."

JOSEPH SILVERMAN, D.D.,
President of Central Conference of American Rabbis; Rabbi of Temple Emanu-El, New York.

JACOB VOORSANGER, D.D.,
Rabbi of the Congregation Emanu-El, San Francisco, Cal.; Professor of Semitic Languages and Literatures, University of California, Berkeley, Cal.​

That entire quote, contradicts the Torah. Which again discredits the supposed Jewish Encyclopedia a bit more.

The JE is a standard, recognized JEWISH resource. What you think or suppose contradicts anything is irrelevant. Follow the link I posted if you want the truth. You claimed the Talmud does not blaspheme Jesus, a genuine JEWISH source proves you wrong.

The Mitzvot regarding gentiles are, 1, To love the stranger, Deut. 10:19, 2, Not to wrong the stranger in speech, Ex. 22:20, 3, Not to wrong the stranger in selling or buying, Ex. 22:20, 4, Not to intermarry, Deut 7:3, 5, To exact a debt, Deut. 15:3, 6, To lend at interest Deut. 23:21.

I know what scripture says. I was proving your uninformed assertion that the Talmud does not blaspheme Jesus, false.

 

[Charles YTK]

Der Alter,

You misunderstood, I was not saying that I believe that there was no holocaust. I have seen the evidence within ten years of the events before the modern revisionists began to try and change history. My comment was a sarcasm to show that many things about the event have been denied by some christians today including that the fact that the holocaust even took place. The same people often deny the inquisition happened and the millions of innocent that were killed by that particular Church enterprise. People only believe what they want to, agree with or feel comfortable with, the rest they either ignore, deny, excuse, or justify in some bizzar way.

This may be what happened with the testimony of the SS belt buckles. Maybe there was more than one type of buckle, maybe the Jewish woman could not read German too well. I only know what she said, that the belt buckles proudly said, "Jesus is Lord" on them, the ones that she reports to have seen when in the camps.

I am not the witness, just the reporter.

 

[Charles YTK]

Funny thing in all this, Det Ater rejects anything written in Talmud because of suposed negative comments about Jesus. (Which if they were there would be only the comments of one man as Talmud is a collection of opinions of thousands of Sages over a millennia.) And yet Christianity as it developed from the time of Constantine the Pagan Emperor of Rome felt completely comfortable incorporating all kinds of Roman and Greek practices and hellenistic thought and philosophy into their new religion, using those things practiced by the people who persecuted the church from the very beginning. Moreover I don't think anyone here is saying that believers in Messiah are supposed to be maintaining any practices found in Talmud. The Talmud tells us about the people and the customs of the people of Messiah, and what they thought, even if some of them rejeted Messiah. Let us not forget that Nicodemus, and Joseph of aramthea were Pharisees and members of the Sanhedrin and the New testament tells us that myraids of Jews DID believe and remained also zealous for the law, and it also says that a great number f the priests also believed in Jesus. Paul was a Pharisee and remaind a member of that party till the end. That did not detract rom his faith in Messiah one bit. In fact it was from his extensive training that he understood that Jesus was the Messiah. How foolish to narrow all understanding to one book or source. History included all people, and to understand the truth you have to look in all directions and find out what others thought and what their experience was in that time. Epiphanius was not a messiniac, he was a Roman Christian. But his information written about those whom he determined to be heretics tells us many things about the Messianic brothers of the time, that they were still there, still had Matthew writen in its original Hebrew, that they kept the festivals and passover and not the Eucharist, that the live according to the precepts of the law and observed Jewish custom. This we learn from a man who listed these Nazzerenes as heretec to be killed by the church. We can learn information from those who opposed us. Talmud tells us many things about what the Jewish understanding of their own scriptures was and what they practiced. For example the Passover lamb was to be sacrificed "between the evenings." But that can mean many things. But when we read the Talmud we discover that the practice was well defined among the Jews and was at 3 PM on the 14th of Nisan. From this we learn that Yeshua died on the stake at the same time the Passover lamb was killed in the Temple. Without what was recorded in Talmud you would have a hard time proving this.

And yes Rav Hillel and Shammia and Huna are all quoted in many places in Talmud. These men lived long before Yeshua. The writings of Talmud were being compiled from the time of Babylon in its forerunner the Mishneh. Talmud was a reorganization or cataloging of this information.