Did Jesus deity leave his humanity on the cross?

[FireDragon76]

How did Jesus die from the divine side of him?

There's nothing inherently more logical about saying that God can't die a human death. God doesn't have limitations of that sort upon his nature.

 

[prodromos]

How?

The medical concensus seems to be asphyxiation.

 

[tonychanyt]

Yes.

How?

 

[tonychanyt]

There's nothing inherently more logical about saying that God can't die a human death.

reference?

 

[tonychanyt]

God doesn't have limitations of that sort upon his nature.

verse?

 

[tonychanyt]

The medical concensus seems to be asphyxiation.

How did he get the asphyxiation?

 

[dzheremi]

No. When the priest confesses before the Eucharist "Truly I believe that His divinity parted not from His humanity for a single moment, nor the twinkling of an eye", he is not just stating his personal belief. He is confessing what we all confess likewise. This is the basi(c)s of the Christian faith. Maybe a Chalcedonian would explain it differently (as they allow for a division of the natures into two after the union, whereas we do not, and I don't know how/if that affects this question), but for us, when we affirm the union, it is not only for its beginning (the annunciation, or the nativity, or what have you), but forever afterwards, without a single second of separation. When Christ was sleeping, that was the God-man Who was sleeping; when He was eating, He was eating, etc. "In His divinity", "In His humanity"...whatever; Chalcedonians gotta Chalcedon, I guess, but I must say that it becomes much more easy to sort these kinds of questions out when you recognize, as was already recognized by the formula of reunion pertaining to HH St. Cyril and John of Antioch (read: even before Chalcedon itself) that it is customary among some to point to certain things as being fitting of divinity, and others of humanity. That doesn't mean that they 'occurred in' this or that, as though natures are loci of experience. That's our entire problem with some of the sloppy wording of the Tome of Leo the Not-So-Great! Things do not work that way. But as our friend Prodromos wisely pointed out in post #14 above, "diety" does not have a body. So either way, when we're talking about Christ, we're talking about a Person, not natures abstracted out of that context so to make some kind of other point about "what about if this happened." No. What about no.

And it is folly of the highest order to expect any question you might have to be explicitly addressed in the scriptures (whether or not anyone wants to bring said scripture as has been asked; I know better, given my Church's Christological position and how it has made everyone brand us as heretics by their later definition). And arguing over the natures of which Christ is composed was already done centuries ago by the likes of HH St. Cyril, who is way smarter than any of us will ever be. Read "That Christ is One" and be happy.

 

[ViaCrucis]

How?

By being nailed to a cross.

If you're looking for a philosophical or rational answer. That doesn't exist.

There's nothing reasonable about the Cross.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tonychanyt]

If you're looking for a philosophical or rational answer. That doesn't exist.

I am looking for an answer in terms of mechanics, i.e., spiritual mechanics. Here is my attempt:

For Jesus to take on sin, the Holy Spirit (the deity) disconnected from Jesus' human spirit when he made the first cry. When he made the second cry, his human spirit left his physical body to die. But then, immediately, his human spirit rejoin the deity Holy Spirit. I speculate that Jesus' deity left him between the 1st and the 2nd cry.

Sin cannot be imposed upon the divine nature of Christ. Without carrying sin, Jesus could not have died physically.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I am looking for an answer in terms of mechanics, i.e., spiritual mechanics. Here is my attempt:

For Jesus to take on sin, the Holy Spirit (the deity) disconnected from Jesus' human spirit when he made the first cry. When he made the second cry, his human spirit left his physical body to die. But then, immediately, his human spirit rejoin the deity Holy Spirit. I speculate that Jesus' deity left him between the 1st and the 2nd cry.

Sin cannot be imposed upon the divine nature of Christ. Without carrying sin, Jesus could not have died physically.

The Holy Spirit isn't Jesus' Deity.
Jesus is His own Deity, He's the Son, the Logos.

There was no disconnection, no "spiritual mechanics".

Jesus, God Himself by virtue of His own Divine Person, God the Son and Word, died. Jesus is God, and He died. And at no point was ever disconnected or out of relationship with the other two Persons of the Trinity.

Jesus died, without sin.
Jesus, who is God, died.
He died for the sins of the world, but was Himself always without sin.

A sinless man died.
God died.
Jesus died.

You're not going to get a mechanical, rational, logical, or philosophical answer for this--because it doesn't exist. At least not this side of the Eschaton.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dzheremi]

I am looking for an answer in terms of mechanics, i.e., spiritual mechanics. Here is my attempt:

For Jesus to take on sin, the Holy Spirit (the deity) disconnected from Jesus' human spirit when he made the first cry. When he made the second cry, his human spirit left his physical body to die. But then, immediately, his human spirit rejoin the deity Holy Spirit. I speculate that Jesus' deity left him between the 1st and the 2nd cry.

Sin cannot be imposed upon the divine nature of Christ. Without carrying sin, Jesus could not have died physically.

Eh...why exactly does Jesus, Who is God, have to obey your made-up rules of when or how He can or cannot die?

There is another answer to this anyway, though I'm not sure how it fits into your "spiritual mechanics" (if it at all), because that's too esoteric to me. Anyway, here is what is proclaimed (in part) in a fraction prayer for the Son prayed in the Coptic Orthodox Church:

"O, Only-Begotten Son, God the Word, Who loved us, and because of His love, He wanted to save us from eternal damnation. But since death was in the way of our salvation, He yearned to go through it, because of His love for us."

In this understanding of what God did and why, Christ's sacrifice upon the cross is the ultimate act of love. Just as He didn't need to do any of the other things He did (God in Himself is not in need of anything, I hope we'd all agree), He did not need to die upon the Cross. But He knew that we needed to be freed from our bondage to sin and death, and so He did so, because of His great love for us.

So there ya go. An explanation (of many, I'm sure) as to how and why Jesus would undergo death that does not in any way undercut His divinity, or separate the natures of which He is composed (God forbid both).

 

[ViaCrucis]

I am reminded of one of my favorite lines from St. John Chrysostom's Paschal Homily,

"It [hell] was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tonychanyt]

Jesus died, without sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Jesus, who is God, died.

So, God died?

BTW, I do respect all your writings, regardless

 

[tonychanyt]

your made-up rules of when or how He can or cannot die

Can you specify my made-up rules?

 

[ViaCrucis]

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Two things:

1) Look at Isaiah's Suffering Servant poem, especially Isaiah 53:12, "He was numbered among the transgressors".

2) Notice Paul's language here, Christ took our sin (though He Himself was without sin) and we take His righteousness (though we are without righteousness ourselves). Christ was no more a sinner than you or I are righteous; yet Christ died that we might live; the righteous for the unrighteous (1 Peter 3:18).

So, God died?

Yes.

BTW, I do respect all your writings, regardless

Thank you.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dzheremi]

Can you specify my made-up rules?

You specified them yourself in post #29.

 

[tonychanyt]

Yes.

I would not say that God died. Jesus died, but the divinity in him did not.

 

[tonychanyt]

You specified them yourself in post #29.

As far as I know, I did not. Sorry that I am slow. Can you quote my words in your next reply? Be specific and direct. Try not to evade.

 

[FireDragon76]

verse?

I don't need a verse. If God cannot die a human death, then that is a limitation on God's nature.

Part of the problem is that people that resist orthodoxy want to project their own limited conceptualization of divinity onto concepts like God or Jesus, and that isn't how orthodox Christian theology works. A concept of divinity that can fit into limited categories of thought simply isn't God.

 

[prodromos]

I would not say that God died. Jesus died, but the divinity in him did not.

Your problem seems to be confusing person with nature. As stated earlier, the divine nature does not have a body and soul as the human nature does, so it is nonsense to speak of "divinity" dying as there can be no separation of soul and body in divinity ( it also makes no sense to speak of human nature dying. Natures do not die, persons do).

When we speak of God dying, it is always in the context of the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity. We are not saying God the Father died, nor are we saying God the Holy Spirit died or that the Holy Trinity died, we are speaking specifically of Jesus the Christ, who is God, who died. Thus, God (remembering the context of the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity) died.