Did Christ Suffer Eternal Torment?

[ThomasDa]

Christ had faith. Does everyone else have faith?

That has nothing to do with the question.

 

[Hentenza]

That has nothing to do with the question.

Sure it does. No one can be saved without faith.

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hello Hentenza!

Regarding the supposed impossibility of receiving saving faith after death, you wrote: "Because nowhere in the bible does it say that anyone can come to faith after they die." (end quote).

Au Contraire! Has everyone forgotten all the people in the bible whom Jesus raised during His Earthly ministry from bodily death back to their Earthly lives: Lazarus-Mary's brother, Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son, and even all the people in the entire bible whom God raised back to their Earthly life?

And let's not forget the dead man who touched Elisha's bones as he was being lowered into Elisha's tomb, the young Greek man who fell down off the "third loft" as Paul was "long preaching," and of course Dorcas, a precious lady beloved by all who knew her. All these had to die TWICE, and therefore inadvertently had a second chance to exercise faith in God and receive saving faith unto salvation even AFTER they had already died once.

And we all know that the Lord is no respecter of persons so that what He does for one, He will surely do for all.

"It is appointed unto men ONCE to die," not TWICE!

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
--------------

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hello Hentenza!

Regarding the supposed impossibility of receiving saving faith after death, you wrote: "Because nowhere in the bible does it say that anyone can come to faith after they die." (end quote).

Au Contraire! Has everyone forgotten all the people in the bible whom Jesus raised during His Earthly ministry from bodily death back to their Earthly lives: Lazarus-Mary's brother, Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son, and even all the people in the entire bible whom God raised back to their Earthly life?

And let's not forget the dead man who touched Elisha's bones as he was being lowered into Elisha's tomb, the young Greek man who fell down off the "third loft" as Paul was "long preaching," and of course Dorcas, a precious lady beloved by all who knew her. All these had to die TWICE, and therefore inadvertently had a second chance to exercise faith in God and receive saving faith unto salvation even AFTER they had already died once.

And we all know that the Lord is no respecter of persons so that what He does for one, He will surely do for all.

"It is appointed unto men ONCE to die," not TWICE!

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
--------------

A general principle that applies to all men (to die once and then the judgement) is quite different than the workings of the Spirit in the charisms to the church.

If what you were espousing were a good place to found a doctrine of post mortem salvation . . . the person would have to be given the chance to accept Christ AFTER death WITHOUT being brought back to life.

The universalists claims are not supported by the manifestations of the SPirit in the charism of resurrection.

 

[Hentenza]

Hello Hentenza!

Regarding the supposed impossibility of receiving saving faith after death, you wrote: "Because nowhere in the bible does it say that anyone can come to faith after they die." (end quote).

Au Contraire! Has everyone forgotten all the people in the bible whom Jesus raised during His Earthly ministry from bodily death back to their Earthly lives: Lazarus-Mary's brother, Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son, and even all the people in the entire bible whom God raised back to their Earthly life?

And let's not forget the dead man who touched Elisha's bones as he was being lowered into Elisha's tomb, the young Greek man who fell down off the "third loft" as Paul was "long preaching," and of course Dorcas, a precious lady beloved by all who knew her. All these had to die TWICE, and therefore inadvertently had a second chance to exercise faith in God and receive saving faith unto salvation even AFTER they had already died once.

And we all know that the Lord is no respecter of persons so that what He does for one, He will surely do for all.

"It is appointed unto men ONCE to die," not TWICE!

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
--------------

Dear Arph,

The examples of resurrected people in the bible does not help your case because it never mentions a second chance to repent. You are merely reading that into the text. As a matter of fact, Jesus himself tells us that a second chance after death is not possible in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Faith is for the now not for the afterlife. Once a person dies it is too late. God is a loving and righteous God. He is not going to force anyone to love him because force love is no love at all.

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Henrenza!

Thanks again for writing. Re; a "second chance" to exercise faith unto salvation, you wrote: "Dear Arph,
The examples of resurrected people in the bible does not help your case because it never mentions a second chance to repent. You are merely reading that into the text. As a matter of fact, Jesus himself tells us that a second chance after death is not possible in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Faith is for the now not for the afterlife. Once a person dies it is too late. God is a loving and righteous God. He is not going to force anyone to love him because force love is no love at all." (end quote).

In Jesus' "Aesop's Fable" of "The Rich Man and Lazarus," Jesus uses the mythological Greek "Underworld" for "Hell." The mythological Greek "Underworld" was ruled by "Hades," the pagan god of the mythological Greek "Underworld." Hades (the place) was ruled by the pagan god "Hades" after whom "Hades" (the supposed place) was named.

Since Jesus relied so heavily on Greek mythology in this parable, we have no other choice but to consider "The Rich Man and Lazarus" as an "Aesop's Fable" designed to impart much-needed wisdom to it's coveteous Pharisaical hearers.

BTW, life restored by Jesus from death back to Earthly life is a very strong incentive to receive salvation through Christ. Of course after their resurrection, those the Lord raised still had their free will to do most anything they wanted. But after learning who had raised them from the dead, it's pretty likely that they would have acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God and thus received their salvation..

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
--------------

 

[Hentenza]

Hi Henrenza!

Thanks again for writing. Re; a "second chance" to exercise faith unto salvation, you wrote: "Dear Arph,
The examples of resurrected people in the bible does not help your case because it never mentions a second chance to repent. You are merely reading that into the text. As a matter of fact, Jesus himself tells us that a second chance after death is not possible in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Faith is for the now not for the afterlife. Once a person dies it is too late. God is a loving and righteous God. He is not going to force anyone to love him because force love is no love at all." (end quote).

In Jesus' "Aesop's Fable" of "The Rich Man and Lazarus," Jesus uses the mythological Greek "Underworld" for "Hell." The mythological Greek "Underworld" was ruled by "Hades," the pagan god of the mythological Greek "Underworld." Hades (the place) was ruled by the pagan god "Hades" after whom "Hades" (the supposed place) was named.

Since Jesus relied so heavily on Greek mythology in this parable, we have no other choice but to consider "The Rich Man and Lazarus" as an "Aesop's Fable" designed to impart much-needed wisdom to it's coveteous Pharisaical hearers.

BTW, life restored by Jesus from death back to Earthly life is a very strong incentive to receive salvation through Christ. Of course after their resurrection, those the Lord raised still had their free will to do most anything they wanted. But after learning who had raised them from the dead, it's pretty likely that they would have acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God and thus received their salvation..

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
--------------

Sorry Arph but I disagree. The words of Jesus are not fable (any kind). The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied.

 

[max1120]

Mathetes the Kruex,

You are suggesting that the fire is literal fire. I suggest it used in figurative way. Are you to suggest that in the greek there is another word for fire that would have been used if were figurative?

You suggest that Christ died only for the "elect". So the elect are going to have billions of people thrown off into everlasting torture for them to be spared? Your I am assuming counting yourself in that number of the "elect"? Your good with that, other people cast off to burn alive forever? You feel good about that? How do you feel about it? I ask this not to be rude but to make you ponder the question outside the ivory tower of your beliefs and instead see it in real terms.

If I were faced with a situation where someone was going to kill 90% of the people in my town simply because he was unhappy with they way they live and this person was going to spare me, I would not accept it, I would resist and fight!! I would be like the French Resistance fighters or the Jews who organized the Italian mountains and came down to fight against the Nazi's. Why? Becaue you are supporting a God of evil who gets his "glory" by causing those who do not do exactly as he tells them to do to suffer torture and pain by burning them alive for ever and ever. That is no loving god, its not a loving father or creator, its a dictator bent on domination at all cost. That is a sadist, a narcissist so obsessed with his ownself "glory" that appart from that we have no value or worth to him.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hi Henrenza!

Thanks again for writing. Re; a "second chance" to exercise faith unto salvation, you wrote: "Dear Arph,
The examples of resurrected people in the bible does not help your case because it never mentions a second chance to repent. You are merely reading that into the text. As a matter of fact, Jesus himself tells us that a second chance after death is not possible in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Faith is for the now not for the afterlife. Once a person dies it is too late. God is a loving and righteous God. He is not going to force anyone to love him because force love is no love at all." (end quote).

In Jesus' "Aesop's Fable" of "The Rich Man and Lazarus," Jesus uses the mythological Greek "Underworld" for "Hell." The mythological Greek "Underworld" was ruled by "Hades," the pagan god of the mythological Greek "Underworld." Hades (the place) was ruled by the pagan god "Hades" after whom "Hades" (the supposed place) was named.

Since Jesus relied so heavily on Greek mythology in this parable, we have no other choice but to consider "The Rich Man and Lazarus" as an "Aesop's Fable" designed to impart much-needed wisdom to it's coveteous Pharisaical hearers.

BTW, life restored by Jesus from death back to Earthly life is a very strong incentive to receive salvation through Christ. Of course after their resurrection, those the Lord raised still had their free will to do most anything they wanted. But after learning who had raised them from the dead, it's pretty likely that they would have acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God and thus received their salvation..

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
--------------

Luke wrote that in Greek . . . Jesus, when He spoke the parable probably did so in Aramaic.

And, to the best of my knowledge . . . there is NO Abrahams bosom in Greek mythology . . . so you arguement cannot be maintained. Sorry.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Mathetes the Kruex,

You are suggesting that the fire is literal fire. I suggest it used in figurative way. Are you to suggest that in the greek there is another word for fire that would have been used if were figurative?

You suggest that Christ died only for the "elect". So the elect are going to have billions of people thrown off into everlasting torture for them to be spared? Your I am assuming counting yourself in that number of the "elect"? Your good with that, other people cast off to burn alive forever? You feel good about that? How do you feel about it? I ask this not to be rude but to make you ponder the question outside the ivory tower of your beliefs and instead see it in real terms.

If I were faced with a situation where someone was going to kill 90% of the people in my town simply because he was unhappy with they way they live and this person was going to spare me, I would not accept it, I would resist and fight!! I would be like the French Resistance fighters or the Jews who organized the Italian mountains and came down to fight against the Nazi's. Why? Becaue you are supporting a God of evil who gets his "glory" by causing those who do not do exactly as he tells them to do to suffer torture and pain by burning them alive for ever and ever. That is no loving god, its not a loving father or creator, its a dictator bent on domination at all cost. That is a sadist, a narcissist so obsessed with his ownself "glory" that appart from that we have no value or worth to him.

IF your god is the real god, then Lucifer is a freedom fighter!

As I have a moment . . .

 

[Arphaxad12]

Deleted - duplicate post. Please see original just below.

Thanks,
"Arph"
-------

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi again Hentenza!

Jesus' illustrative "Aesop's Fable," aimed at the coveteous Pharisees, had a number of spiritual impossibilites clearly revealing it was indeed a fable:

1. How did the rich man talk to Father Abraham? Cellphone?

2. Judgment had not yet ocurred for anyone. so how was the rich man cast into flames without the White Throne judgment? (totally "flies in the face" of Rev 20:11-15).
=======================================================================================
Rev 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (the grave) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. ("the death of death"-no more death or graves).
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (underlines, parentheses and color are my own).
==========================================================================================

3. the MYTHOLOGICAL Greek "Hades" is, as all scholars know: "Mythological." The name of this supposed compartmented place: "Hades" is taken from the name of the mythological pagan god "Hades."

4. Since when does the Lord send any Jew, rich or poor, into a Greek mythological "non-place" without the Great White Throne judgment, simply because they're rich? Is that a sin? Should the Lord send Joseph of Aramathea to mythological "Hades" just because he was rich? Or maybe some serial killer should be admitted into God's Kingdom just because he's poor.

5. And why would the Lord automatically provide the poor with a "5 star compartment" (Abraham's Bosom) in "Hades" just because they're poor?


Just too many contradictions to the Gospel in this "Aesop's Fable" for it to be taken literally. Jesus never meant it to be understood as literal truth, but rather to illustrate the real-life guilt and self-condemnation resulting from stopping your ears to the cries of the poor.

Just as the parable of the Good Samaritan was also an "Aesop's fable" told to illustrate a spiritual principle of who your neighbor is. Were the Good Samaritan, the wounded robbery victim and the innkeeper in Jesus' story real or just made up characters used by Jesus to illustrate a spiritual principle?

However, in telling the story of "The Rich Man and Lazarus, Jesus had yet another motive. And that was to expose the coveteous Pharisees in an indirect way, especially since they had been deriding Him just before He told the story.

BTW, Mathetes, please find me any reference to "Abraham's Bosom" anywhere else in the bible. Surely it must be in there somewhere else.Is that another "Heaven" God forgot to mention in the OT. Don't recall it being mentioned anywhere else in the NT either. I guess it "stands alone."

The "cherry on top" is that Paul says in Romans 11:26 that "All Israel shall be saved" (by Election). The same is also written many times in the OT (see Isaiah).

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
----------------

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hi again Hentenza!

Jesus' illustrative "Aesop's Fable," aimed at the coveteous Pharisees, had a number of spiritual impossibilites clearly revealing it was indeed a fable:

1. How did the rich man talk to Father Abraham? Cellphone?

2. Judgment had not yet ocurred for anyone. so how was the rich man cast into flames without the White Throne judgment? )totally "flies in the face" of Rev 20:11-13.
================================================================================
Rev 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (the grave) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

3. the MYTHOLOGICAL Greek "Hades" is, as all scholars know: "Mythological." The name of this supposed compartmented place: "Hades" is taken from the name of the mythological pagan god "Hades.

4. Since when does the Lord send any Jew, rich or poor, into a Greek mytholigical "non-place" without the Great White Throne judgment, simply because they're rich? is that a sin? Should the Lord send Joseph of Aramathea to mythological "Hades" just because he was rich.

5. Since when does the Lord automatically afford the poor a "5 star compartment" in "Hades" just because they're poor?

Just too many contradictions to the Gospel in this "Aesop's Fable" for it to be taken as truth. Jesus never meant it to be understood as literal truth, but only to illustrate the wisdom of love. Just as the parable of the Good Samaritan was also an "Aesop's fable" told to illustrate a spiritual principle. Were the Good Samaritan, the wounded robbery victim and the innkeeper in Jesus' story real or just made up characters used by Jesus to illustrate a spiritual principle?

However, in telling the story of "The Rich Man and Lazarus, Jesus had yet another motive. And that was to expose the coveteous Pharisees in an indirect way, especially since they had been deriding Him just before He told the story.

BTW, Mathetes, please find me any reference to "Abraham's Bosom" anywhere else in the bible. Surely it must be in there somewhere else.Is that another "Heaven" God forgot to mention in the OT. Don't recall it being mentioned anywhere else in the NT either. I guess it "stands alone."

The "cherry on top" is that Paul says in Romans 11:25 that "All Israel shall be saved" by Election. The same is also written many times in the OT (see Isaiah).

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
----------------

Abrahams Bosom was an intermediary death state (AFAIK) that was conceptualized post exilic 2nd Temple Judaism. IOW it was a common teaching amongst the conservative Jewsih religious caste that we call "Pharisees."

Jesus' parable has nothing in common with Greek mythology (save for the wording) and EVERYTHING in common with 1st Century Essenic and Pharisaic doctrine.

Before the death of Christ and the rending of the veil there is NO access for the righteous into "heaven" . . . Jesus had not yet purchased His people. Abraham's bosom was the place of abode for the righteous/covenantal dead. That is where the pharisees thought one went when one died in covenant with God . . . as opposed to g'henna (torment) where one went when not in covenant with God.

So Jesus parable is QUITE in keeping with 1st Cent Judaism and NOT Greek mythology. Sorry.

And conversation in the afterlife cannot be construed the same way as here . . . so however it was that Abraham and the Rich man could converse . . . it was governed by whatever rules God has set there . . . not here. To try and chide the assertion by refering to cell phones is called a categorical fallacy . . . you are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Mathetes!

Thanks again for writing. Sorry I accidently posted #91 before it was finished. I deleted #91 and replaced it with #92. It's late here and and I might be getting a little tired.

Anyway, if you would be so kind, please reference post #92 for my response to the idea that "The Rich Man and Lazarus" should be understood as literal.

Thanks for the info on Pharisaical doctrine and beliefs. Of course most believers today wouldn't put much stock in Pharisaical folklore. Much of what the Pharisees believed obviously completely contradicted much of Jesus' teaching.

BTW, In a previous post I brought out the fact that Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world" and all God's works were finished before the first man was ever created. Hence all that is available to us in Christ today was also available to Abel, Adam, Cain, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The only difference was that those I just mentioned didn't know the name of Jesus. It was a VERY closely guarded secret:
==================================================================================
Gen 32:24-30 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he ("the Man") saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

26 And he (the Man") said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he (Jacob) said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

29 And Jacob asked [him], and said, Tell [me], I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore [is] it [that] thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Col 1:26-27 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the imaginary Beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (underlines, parentheses and color are my own).
================================================================================

So actually, the Lord didn't "shortchage" anyone in the Old Testament. Even Abel knew enough to offer the spiritual blood of Christ to God, by which offering he was accepted and declared righteous forever.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
--------------

 

[Rajni]

Arguements from silence are not sound to found doctrine upon dear sister.

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]S[/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]ince the bible is silent concerning the notion of people continuing in
endless unbelief after death, we should perhaps be careful about basing
an argument or establishing a doctrine in support of such a notion upon
such silence. [/FONT]



.

 

[max1120]

Mathetes the Kruex

I was unable to understand what you are trying to make with your last reply to my post. I simply would like a logical sane response to my question. How could you identify the actions of such a god as the one you seem to believe exist other than to recognize him for what he would be, a narcissist (one who is totally self consumed) and a sadist? The wilfull torture without end of the type you believe exist in hell used on billions of people for little more than their desire not to live exactly as your god wanted them to do so seems crueln narcissistic, and the work of a sadist. How other could a sane person discribe it? To so treat so many for so little indeed brings to mind the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Paul Pot, and Kim Jung Ill. Remember each of these tyrants also spared those who agreed with and followed them. Your version of god does the same, spares those who agree with him and condems those who do not to eteranal physical torture in hell.

It would be refreshing to hear you actually lay out a good argument do defend such a god or proof that I am somehow mistaken (which I doubt since you admit your god is going to toss these people off into hell for eternal torture). You nor anyonelse on here has done very well at making a case for such attrocities. Either your god is or is not a vindictive monster bent on his own "glory" (vanity) even if it requires the endless suffering of billions to accomplish. I recognize I am putting you on the spot because this is not an easy thing to defend. However I do wish you would be respond. Your version of god gives all christians a bad name and makes look like the blind followers of an evil dictator. There is no "glory" in mass murder or torture.

Again:

IF god is like you suggest he is, than Lucifier is a freedom fighter.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hi Mathetes!

Thanks again for writing. Sorry I accidently posted #91 before it was finished. I deleted #91 and replaced it with #92. It's late here and and I might be getting a little tired.

Anyway, if you would be so kind, please reference post #92 for my response to the idea that "The Rich Man and Lazarus" should be understood as literal.

Thanks for the info on Pharisaical doctrine and beliefs. Of course most believers today wouldn't put much stock in Pharisaical folklore. Much of what the Pharisees believed obviously completely contradicted much of Jesus' teaching.

BTW, In a previous post I brought out the fact that Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world" and all God's works were finished before the first man was ever created. Hence all that is available to us in Christ today was also available to Abel, Adam, Cain, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The only difference was that those I just mentioned didn't know the name of Jesus. It was a VERY closely guarded secret:
==================================================================================
Gen 32:24-30 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he ("the Man") saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

26 And he (the Man") said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he (Jacob) said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

29 And Jacob asked [him], and said, Tell [me], I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore [is] it [that] thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Col 1:26-27 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the imaginary Beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (underlines, parentheses and color are my own).
================================================================================

So actually, the Lord didn't "shortchage" anyone in the Old Testament. Even Abel knew enough to offer the spiritual blood of Christ to God, by which offering he was accepted and declared righteous forever.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
--------------

Of course most believers today wouldn't put much stock in Pharisaical folklore. Much of what the Pharisees believed obviously completely contradicted much of Jesus' teaching.

The Pharisees started with great and noble intentions. Same as we. People who wanted to worship God and be pleased BY Him and be a pleasure to Him.

Where do you think the doctrine of resurrection FIRST came about in Judaism from? The Pharisaic order. Jesus takes a doctrine that was first espoused (as a formal doctrine) by the Pharisees and ratifies it with His authoritative statements. Not all that was done by the Pharisees was bad . . . remember Jesus' largest qualm was not issues of doctrine but issues of PRACTICE. MANY of the pharisees were hypocrites . . . not heretics.

So, hermeneutically speaking, a text can ONLY mean what it meant to the original speakers and original hearers AUTHORITATIVELY. Those to whom He was speaking were NOT pagan philosophers at Mars Hill . . . they were well known and well taught pious religious Jews. To argue a Greek mythology understanding of the text is irresponsible to hermeneutics AND historical context.

BTW, In a previous post I brought out the fact that Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world" and all God's works were finished before the first man was ever created. Hence all that is available to us in Christ today was also available to Abel, Adam, Cain, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The only difference was that those I just mentioned didn't know the name of Jesus.

The way that what it outside of time relates to what it inside time is a great mystery indeed. The only glimpses that we have are what God reveals to us. FACTS are that though Jesus was surely ORDAINED to die for the sins of all prior to the formation of the world . . . the veil to the temple (representing access to the holy of holies) was NOT rent in two UNTIL the finale of the presentation of the blood and sacrifice of Christ.

Hebrews says that He sits down AFTER He makes atonement. There is some sort of relation between the events ACTUALLY happening and the benefit of the events being applied post crucifixion.

There was surely a HUGE difference. NO ONE HAS ACCESS TO THE HOLY OF HOLIES UNTIL THE LAMB'S SACRIFICE IS PRESENTED. That is the construct of the OT system that typifies what is to come in the reality of the person and work of Christ.

BTW, the context of the works of Hebrews 4 is NOT redemption . . . it is Creation. Sorry.

So actually, the Lord didn't "shortchage" anyone in the Old Testament. Even Abel knew enough to offer the spiritual blood of Christ to God, by which offering he was accepted and declared righteous forever.

Completely agree . . . it is the APPLICATION of this righteousness that I am debating. It cannot TRULY be applied experientially until it ACTUALLY takes place . . . not at the mere ordination of said event.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]S[/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]ince the bible is silent concerning the notion of people continuing in [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]endless unbelief after death, we should perhaps be careful about basing [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]an argument or establishing a doctrine in support of such a notion upon [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]such silence. [/FONT]



.

Dear sister, I have yet to see you soundly refute Mat 25 or Rev 14. So, the Bible then is QUITE verbous about the issue.

Mat 25 says that the punishement is forever

Rev 14 speaks of the torment forever

Jesus speaks of the worm that dies not (and it certainly needs something to feed upon).

And He speaks of the fire being eternal (which being the wrath of God would go OUT once the object of His wrath is dealt with).

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Mathetes the Kruex

I was unable to understand what you are trying to make with your last reply to my post. I simply would like a logical sane response to my question. How could you identify the actions of such a god as the one you seem to believe exist other than to recognize him for what he would be, a narcissist (one who is totally self consumed) and a sadist? The wilfull torture without end of the type you believe exist in hell used on billions of people for little more than their desire not to live exactly as your god wanted them to do so seems crueln narcissistic, and the work of a sadist. How other could a sane person discribe it? To so treat so many for so little indeed brings to mind the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Paul Pot, and Kim Jung Ill. Remember each of these tyrants also spared those who agreed with and followed them. Your version of god does the same, spares those who agree with him and condems those who do not to eteranal physical torture in hell.

It would be refreshing to hear you actually lay out a good argument do defend such a god or proof that I am somehow mistaken (which I doubt since you admit your god is going to toss these people off into hell for eternal torture). You nor anyonelse on here has done very well at making a case for such attrocities. Either your god is or is not a vindictive monster bent on his own "glory" (vanity) even if it requires the endless suffering of billions to accomplish. I recognize I am putting you on the spot because this is not an easy thing to defend. However I do wish you would be respond. Your version of god gives all christians a bad name and makes look like the blind followers of an evil dictator. There is no "glory" in mass murder or torture.

Again:

IF god is like you suggest he is, than Lucifier is a freedom fighter.

Actually it is quite easy to do . . . it just assumes the authority of the Bible. And since you DON'T (because of liberal presuppositions) . . . the moment I support the position with a passage, or appeal to sytematics based on passages, you will negate it as "how can you believe in something that has been changed . . . been written by man . . ." (etc., etc., etc).

SO I will be glad to present a cogent and logical position . . . but you must be patient . . . and I forwarn you . . . it will be based on the bible so your internal intestinal "butterflies" that lead you to create God in your own image will NOT agree.

But if you want to accept the truth of the Scriptures for what they say as God's revelation to His people . . . then maybe you will.

 

[Doveaman]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]So, again, I must ask, Does it specifically say, anywhere in the
bible, that nobody will come to faith after they die?[/FONT]

Not specifically, but it can be inferred they won't.

One scripture that comes to my mind is John 5:28-29:

Jesus replied... “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”

From these verses one can conclude that of all those who in their graves there are two groups of dead; one group is those who have done good (the righteous), and the other group is those who have done evil (the unrighteous).

At the resurrection all will rise – those who did good (the righteous) will rise to live forever, and those who did evil (the unrighteous) will rise to be condemned forever.

Of all those who are in their graves there is no mention of any group coming to faith after death. There is no resurrection to repentance mentioned.

In the grave there is the good and the evil. The good will rise to live and the evil will rise to be condemned. That’s it.


I, too, must ask, Does it specifically say or even inferred, anywhere in the bible, that anyone will come to faith after they die?