Did Christ Suffer Eternal Torment?

[Arphaxad12]

Hello Hentenza!

Really cute kids in your avatar! Thanks again for writing. You wrote: "What universalists fail to understand is that the promise of atonement is for all but applied to those who believe. It is conditional not unconditional otherwise Jesus did not need to die for our sins since God being ominiscient already would have made the salvation of all for all from the beginning of time. The universalism evidence crumbles under its own weight." (end quote).

I think you have me confused with a Universalist. By that I mean that although I'm not very "up" on these various "isms," my scant understanding of Universalism is that it espouses the idea that all will be automatically saved regardless of their agreement or desire to receive salvation.

Nothing could be father from the truth. Anyone receiving "the washing of regeneration" will FIRST, through the enlightenment and drawing power of the Holy Spirit, have to acknowkedge their spiritually dead, God-hating, self dependent, lost condition in the lineage of first Adam, and ask, or at least agree, to the Lord's offer of permanent spiritual adoption into the living glorious lineage of the Last Adam, a new creature, alive unto God, with the spirit of Christ within.

Man's God-enlightened agreement is absolutely essential to receiving "the First resurrection" (new birth) offered by the Lord.

As for "post-mortem" salvation: Please note that all the folks Jesus raised from the dead in His Earthly ministry (Lazarus-Mary's brother, Jairus' daughter, the widoiw of Nain's son, and even all those in the entire bible whom the Lord restored back to their earthly life), all had to die TWICE, and moreover they all inadvertently had a second chance to exercise faith in God and receive their salvation even after they had already died once.

And we all know that the Lord is no respecter of persons. Hence what He has done for one He will most certainly do for all. So we can safely conclude that bodily death is not the end of all opportunity to receive "the washing of regeneration."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, butI don't think I'm a Universalist in the true sense of the word. But I really don't know.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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P.S Heb 9:27 "It is appointed unto men once to die."

 

[Hentenza]

Hello Hentenza!

Really cute kids in your avatar! Thanks again for writing. You wrote: "What universalists fail to understand is that the promise of atonement is for all but applied to those who believe. It is conditional not unconditional otherwise Jesus did not need to die for our sins since God being ominiscient already would have made the salvation of all for all from the beginning of time. The universalism evidence crumbles under its own weight." (end quote).

I think you have me confused with a Universalist. By that I mean that although I'm not very "up" on these various "isms," my scant understanding of Universalism is that it espouses the idea that all will be automatically saved regardless of their agreement or desire to receive salvation.

Nothing could be father from the truth. Anyone receiving "the washing of regeneration" will FIRST, through the enlightenment and drawing power of the Holy Spirit, have to acknowkedge their spiritually dead, God-hating, self dependent, lost condition in the lineage of first Adam, and ask, or at least agree, to the Lord's offer of permanent spiritual adoption into the living glorious lineage of the Last Adam, a new creature, alive unto God, with the spirit of Christ within.

Man's God-enlightened agreement is absolutely essential to receiving "the First resurrection" (new birth) offered by the Lord.

As for "post-mortem" salvation: Please note that all the folks Jesus raised from the dead in His Earthly ministry (Lazarus-Mary's brother, Jairus' daughter, the widoiw of Nain's son, and even all those in the entire bible whom the Lord restored back to their earthly life), all had to die TWICE, and moreover they all inadvertently had a second chance to exercise faith in God and receive their salvation even after they had already died once.

And we all know that the Lord is no respecter of persons. Hence what He has done for one He will most certainly do for all. So we can safely conclude that bodily death is not the end of all opportunity to receive "the washing of regeneration."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, butI don't think I'm a Universalist in the true sense of the word. But I really don't know.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-------------.
P.S Heb 9:27 "It is appointed unto men once to die."

Dear Arph,

Your argument so far has followed the lines of universalism so I am glad to hear that you are not. The bible does not evidence a second chance other that reading it into it. The atonement is for all but many will not accept the free gift for reasons of their own. The chance for salvation is now. The good news is now. The offer of reconciliation is now. God makes it clear that the condition of salvation is belief which can only be attained now. God also makes it clear that faith is part of belief. We need to have faith now. Once the body dies it is too late since faith can no longer be part of belief which we can only have now. The folks that Jesus resurrected received a great gift but a gift that was afforded them only not a corporate gift. The vast majority will not experience death twice hence the good news of the gospel is for all that accept the gift now not after death.

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hello Everyone!

Can someone give me a theory on exactly what "great tribulation" refers to in the following passage. It might be critical to the topic at hand. Also please note the HUGE number of people mentioned as being saved:
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Rev 7:9-10 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7:13-17 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple (their own bodies): and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (underlines and color are my own).
==============================================================================

"Great tribulation" - The word "tribulation" comes from the Latin "tribula" which means "plow." So we could say: "those who "came out of 'great tribulation' actually came out of 'great plowing.'"

This would seem to portray an intended process rather than something accidental or by mere chance.

I see a couple of possibilities: 1. A stint in "the Lake of purification (Fire)." Great tribulation because unbelievers would be forced to look at their hateful, spiritually dead, ungrateful, judgemental condition in the light and "fire" of the Holy Spirit. Ouch! "Let the rocks fall on me!" "Hide me from the face of Him who sits on the Throne." Or maybe even: "Jesus, please save me, an ungrateful sinner!"

2. The great tribulation experienced by those unbelievers alive to see the great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the last days before Jesus' return. "No! this can't be happening!" they may tell themselves as they try their best to "adjust" to mighty miracles of healing, restoration of God's people to their youth and those of God's prople "who shall not sleep." Thus will the Lord shake the Earth before Jesus' return:
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Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isa 2:21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isa 24:18 And it shall come to pass, [that] he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Hag 2:6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it [is] a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry [land];

Hag 2:21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;

Hbr 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Psa 110:3 Thy people [shall be] willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness (God's people knowing who they are) from the womb of the morning (from the very beginning of God's Kingdom on Earth): thou hast the dew of thy youth (God's people will be restored to the dew of their youth).

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done IN EARTH, as [it is] in heaven.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, SO IN EARTH.

(underlines, parentheses, size and color emphases are my own).
=============================================================================

3. All of the above?

Any other theories?

Kingdom Days,
"Arph"
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[Rajni]

What universalists fail to understand is that the promise of atonement is for all but applied to those who believe.

If the atonement is a reality for all already, why would one’s belief or
lack thereof change that reality?




.

 

[Hentenza]

If the atonement is a reality for all already, why would one’s belief or
lack thereof change that reality?




.

Because to believe you have to have faith and you can't have faith once you die. The reality is that one has to have faith now. No one can be saved without faith.

 

[Rajni]

Because to believe you have to have faith and you can't have faith once you die. The reality is that one has to have faith now. No one can be saved without faith.

Why can't a person believe & have faith once they die?




.

 

[Hentenza]

Why can't a person believe & have faith once they die?




.

Because nowhere in the bible does it say that anyone can come to faith after they die.

 

[Rajni]

Because nowhere in the bible does it say that anyone can come to faith after they die.

Does it specifically say, anywhere in the bible, that nobody will come
to faith after they die?

Actually, I'm wording it wrong -- faith isn't something one "comes
to", it's a gift of God (Ephesians 2). So, does it specifically say,
anywhere in the Bible, that nobody receives faith after they die?



.



.

 

[Hentenza]

Does it specifically say, anywhere in the bible, that nobody will come
to faith after they die?

Actually, I'm wording it wrong -- faith isn't something one "comes
to", it's a gift of God (Ephesians 2). So, does it specifically say,
anywhere in the Bible, that nobody receives faith after they die?
.

LOL!!! The bible bible doesn't say anything about computers or cars or airplanes. Do you deny the truth of the bible? The bible simply says that by faith through the grace of God we are saved. Do you need further clarification?

 

[Rajni]

LOL!!! The bible bible doesn't say anything about computers or cars or airplanes. Do you deny the truth of the bible? The bible simply says that by faith through the grace of God we are saved. Do you need further clarification?

This is wild -- I almost gave you a similar answer to your statement in post #67 where you said,

Because nowhere in the bible does it say that anyone can come to faith after they die.

 

[DArceri]

Why can't a person believe & have faith once they die?

Does it specifically say, anywhere in the bible, that nobody will come

to faith after they die?

.

Then there would be no need for the 'Great White Throne', and a 'Second Death' . Listen, Jesus says in Mt 10:32-33 32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

Some parables to check out:

Parable of the 10 Virgins, ......10...The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' 13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Parable of the Talents.......26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant!.......30 throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Also Jesus says:
Mt25:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world......41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[Rajni]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]
[/FONT]Then there would be no need for the 'Great White Throne', and a 'Second Death' . Listen, Jesus says in Mt 10:32-33 32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

Some parables to check out:

Parable of the 10 Virgins, ......10...The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' 13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Parable of the Talents.......26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant!.......30 throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Also Jesus says:
Mt25:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world......41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]
I've seen the above passages many times, and am also aware
that they have been interpreted to mean different things to different
branches of Christianity. In those passages, I'm not seeing how the
events automatically preclude redemption for those who must go
through those judgments. Yes, there's mention of an "eternal fire",
but it's the fire that's eternal, not any particular human's subjection
to it. It could very well be a temporary refining process as
opposed to an endless exercise in torment.

So, again, I must ask, Does it specifically say, anywhere in the
bible, that nobody will come to faith after they die?




[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]




.
[/FONT]

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

If the atonement is a reality for all already, why would one’s belief or
lack thereof change that reality?




.

Cause the bible says that faith is requisite.

Every objective reality of the cross must be applied subjectively. What is true as an absolute must become one's own experientially.

The Bible says that Jesus paid for the sins of the world . . . it also affirms that one must enter into the covenant where this is experienced through faith . . . AND it also says that those who don't will not experience this reality.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Why can't a person believe & have faith once they die?




.

Hmm

Hebrews
it is appointed for every man to die ONCE and THEN the judgement.

There is no doctrine EVER explicated concerning post mortem conversion. I am QUITE sure that if this were the case, then God would have CERTAINLY told us in the "faith delivered ONCE for ALL" (Jude). As is . . . HE did NOT. Not to mention the WEIGHT of emphasis that God places on conversion NOW "while it is still called today."
Might as well live life however I want . . . I am gonna be saved anyway . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Does it specifically say, anywhere in the bible, that nobody will come
to faith after they die?

Actually, I'm wording it wrong -- faith isn't something one "comes
to", it's a gift of God (Ephesians 2). So, does it specifically say,
anywhere in the Bible, that nobody receives faith after they die?



.



.

Arguements from silence are not sound to found doctrine upon dear sister.

The Bible never says anything about a purple wig upon my head that causes me to speak in tongues and it has an anointing that gives me strength . . . the Bible doesn't condone it . . . but it doesn't condemn it . . . must be OK.

NOPE.

Doctrine is NEVER founded upon such things.

And as stated before . . . such a HUGE concept in soteriology as post-mortem conversion would have certainly been something God told us about when seeking to reveal "how must one be saved?"

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]I've seen the above passages many times, and am also aware [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]that they have been interpreted to mean different things to different [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]branches of Christianity. In those passages, I'm not seeing how the [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]events automatically preclude redemption for those who must go [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]through those judgments. Yes, there's mention of an "eternal fire", [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]but it's the fire that's eternal, not any particular human's subjection [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]to it. It could very well be a temporary refining process as [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]opposed to an endless exercise in torment.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]So, again, I must ask, Does it specifically say, anywhere in the [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]bible, that nobody will come to faith after they die?[/FONT]










[FONT=verdana,sans-serif].[/FONT]

Playing the "interpretation" card is only useful for enigmatic and unclear passages. The Bible was MEANT to be read and understood. Salvation and the parameters thereof is a KEY and FOUNDATIONAL element of God's revelation to man. This is not a pre, post, mid trib or are the gifts for today concept. This is the heart of the Gospel . . . atonement.

God has been PAINFULLY clear about what these concepts mean.

We CAN BE OBJECTIVE enough.

Rev 14 is clear about humans going through the fire eternally. Note it is not just eternal FIRE . . . but the torment that the experience which is eternal.

 

[PaladinValer]

Jesus went to sheol, not hell.

There He depowered death and threw apart the gates, opening the realm to the Presence of God.

He then took the righteous there to heaven with Him.

What a God!

 

[Cardinal John H. Newman]

The soul who sins shall die...Ezek 18:4.

For the wages of sin is death...Rom 6:23.

Many Christians believe that ‘death’, as in these verses above, means ‘eternal torment’, that 'sin's penalty' is ‘eternal torment’ in a fiery hell.

My question, however, is about Christ’ ‘death’ on our behalf:

If Christ ‘died’ to pay the ‘death penalty’ for our sins in His own body and that ‘death penalty’ for our sins is ‘eternal torment’ as some believe, then how is it that Christ is not now in ‘eternal torment’ to this day?

If He took our ‘death penalty’ upon Himself and our ‘death penalty’ is ‘eternal torment’ and He is not now presently in ‘eternal torment’, then can it be said that He paid our ‘death penalty’ in full?

First, hell is eternal. Mark 9:41-48 says "the fire is not quenched."

Your other questions don't make any sense.

Cardinal Newman

 

[ThomasDa]

OP: Did Christ Suffer Eternal Torment?

No and neither will anyone else.

 

[Hentenza]

OP: Did Christ Suffer Eternal Torment?

No and neither will anyone else.

Christ had faith. Does everyone else have faith?