Did Christ Suffer Eternal Torment?

[max1120]

Mathetes Kerux

I would love to read what you suggesting. However what might be more telling is your answer to a more pressing question: why would you want to follow such a monster as you suggest god to be. IF as you suggest the bible states that god does indeed does some how plan to torture, torment, and or kill all of those who do not do exactly as he supposes they should do or simply believe in his existence (out of no malice), how could you as a person with any sort of conscience even for a second support his plan to and or torture and or kill billions for such trite reasons. So what a man/woman had an affair, could you really stand by as someone (god) shoved them into an oven to burn forever? Still worse could you honestly "sing praise" or give "glory" to the person who did such an unconscionable act of pure evil? Remember even if you disagree with adultery thier act was temporary and thier suffering for all eternity is far disproportionate. The punishment does not fit the crime (assuming we would even call it a crime) here. Could you really sit comfy and watch as good people who did no harm to you or anyone, whoes only crime was they did not believe the bible was true, they did not believe in god, was thrown screaming and begging into horriable pain and suffering to burn forever? That sounds like madness, insanity, and depravity to me. I could never, would never stand still for a second to "worship" such a god. Why not offer the hiel Hitler salute while the Jews were being loaded into rail cars? Were they not giving glory to Hilter? Hitler did not send off those who supported him to the concentration camps. Do you see what I am showing you? You suggest a very sick and twisted version of god. Now you will say that I am using "man's standards" and that god has his own standards. So did Hilter, he had his own standards and he had a response similar to yours from his supporters when they were questioned. They were perpared to go to their death with the hiel Hitler salute (most of them), they were fanatics. Hitler spared and even rewarded those who supported his policy of genocide against the Jews. Your version of god does the same for those who support his policy of torture without end of those who did not do as they were told or believe he existed. Do you see the how similar the two are here? There were brave men and women who opposed Hilter and many were tortured and gave their life for fighting for freedom against the Nazi's. These men and women were of the highest moral charactor, they were brave and had great courage. They deserve to lauded for thier bravery. Those who sided with Hitler did not fair so well. When the war was over they were handed over if caught and tried for thier crimes. Those convicted (and most were) were sentenced to death or lengthy prison terms for thier roles in genocide. Those lucky enough to excape the hangman were mostly forced to live a life in the shadows never knowing a day with out fear of discovery. I am assuming that you are a good person who is not cruel or hateful. So I ask you in all honesty what could ever compell you to serve, worship, or support such a diabolical person who would actually torture and/or kill billions of people for the slightest offense? Your version of god has as its root diabolical depravity of the worst sort.

By the way, what if you are wrong?

1. What if you are wrong and by saying such things as you have suggested here you have sullied the good name of god by suggesting he would do such cruel and evil things as torture billions with fire forever? What if by doing so you have turned many against god because they see what you are saying as evil and cruel? Do you think god may have grievences with you?

2. What if you are right, do you not see how this would make Lucifer a freedom fighter? He would be like the Allies who fought Hitler. Lucifer would be the leader of all of us who loved freedom and justice. He would be leading an army of those of us who desire freedom from a narcissistic despot. He would represent mans true best interest because he would not seek to torture him for petty offenses.

The difference that those oppossing you would have the right to exact revenge (even if they did not take it) because you and your version of god would be the aggressors and we would be defenders of our rights desiring only to be allowed our freedom with no malice to him. How could mere mortals be any threat to all powerful god?

These are some questions I would like to hear your response to. Not just bible qoutes but an honest answer to an honest question. (others may give theirs as well).

Of course all of this is hypothetical because I do not believe your version of god is correct. However if it were correct I would opposse him and any who sided with him. Just as I would have Adolf Hitler.

 

[Rajni]

Not specifically, but it can be inferred they won't.

One scripture that comes to my mind is John 5:28-29:

Jesus replied... “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”

From these verses one can conclude that of all those who in their graves there are two groups of dead; one group is those who have done good (the righteous), and the other group is those who have done evil (the unrighteous).

At the resurrection all will rise – those who did good (the righteous) will rise to live forever, and those who did evil (the unrighteous) will rise to be condemned forever.

I can certainly see where such verses would give the impression of
endless agony and/or annihilation of those who die in unbelief,
however I suppose it would depend on what is meant by
“condemned”. Does it say they are forever condemned? Or is their
condemnation temporary? I was condemned before I came to Christ
– my condemnation wasn’t an incurable state, so I have to wonder if
it's any less curable post-mortem, especially since the unbelieving
will have the distinct advantage of seeing God face-to-face at that
point. (Talk about the ultimate "Ah-hah!" moment )

I, too, must ask, Does it specifically say or even inferred, anywhere in the bible, that anyone will come to faith after they die?

I think that it can be inferred when I read God’s promise to Abraham
in Genesis 12:3 that in him (Abraham), all the families of the earth
will be blessed. I have to wonder how blessed any family would be if
they had even one loved-one suffering endless agony or annihilation.
I Timothy 4:10 calls God the Savior of all men, especially of
believers. He’s the Savior of believers especially, not exclusively.
Titus 2:11 tells us that God’s grace brings salvation to all men.
Hebrews 1:2 refers to Jesus as the heir of all things, so I find it
hard to see Satan inheriting any souls. Romans 11:32,33 says that
God is the one who locked everyone into disobedience in the first
place, for the purpose of showing everyone mercy when it’s all over.
There’s more where these came from, but you probably get the idea.






.

 

[PaladinValer]

Hi again Hentenza!

Hentenza, if you will forgive me, I would like to comment on this post as well, despite it being directed at you. If you wish it of me, I will "erase" it upon your request.

1. How did the rich man talk to Father Abraham? Cellphone?

They were in sheol together.

2. Judgment had not yet ocurred for anyone. so how was the rich man cast into flames without the White Throne judgment? (totally "flies in the face" of Rev 20:11-15).

He wasn't in flames but was in the "other half" of sheol, often referred to by Jews and Christians of the times as "gehenna." Dives and Lazarus (who was in Abraham's Bosom, called "Paradise" elsewhere and commonly too) were divided, as Jesus says, by a wide chasm. It isn't a literal one, but a figurative one, as Dives, having rejected Love, slowly corrupts further while Lazarus, having embraced Love, is healed and purified.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (the grave) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I will say it again, "hell" is a terrible 21st century translation of the Greek. It is best to simply transliterate it hades or, if you prefer an actual translation, as "netherrealm," "afterlife" (probably best one), or even "limbo" (also better than the first option, but many may mistakenly equivocate it to the by-them dejected old Vatican Catholic concept of the same name).

14 And death and hell (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. ("the death of death"-no more death or graves).
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Death and sheol will indeed be no more. Why? Because no one will die every again, even the unrighteous.

The unrighteous will experience hell and the righteous will experience heaven.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (underlines, parentheses and color are my own).

That was before Christ. Now, after and because of Him, it is different.

3. the MYTHOLOGICAL Greek "Hades" is, as all scholars know: "Mythological." The name of this supposed compartmented place: "Hades" is taken from the name of the mythological pagan god "Hades."

4. Since when does the Lord send any Jew, rich or poor, into a Greek mythological "non-place" without the Great White Throne judgment simply because they're rich? Is that a sin? Should the Lord send Joseph of Aramathea to mythological "Hades" just because he was rich? Or maybe some serial killer should be admitted into God's Kingdom just because he's poor.

Oh I really despise to do this, but you see, the Jews had a concept of an afterlife too. They called it sheol. And in fact, when they learned that the Greeks had a place that was, in concept and even in some aspects of theology, the same, the word became automatically a translation of the other. Sheol = Hades, not in the sense of them being the exact same place (We are not Hellenistic Pagans), but in concept and in terms of Hebrew to Greek.

If you do not believe me, I suggest reading up on your Josephus, the famous Jewish historian, who wrote of the Jews believing in sheol and, if memory serves me right, even saying that the Greek translation of sheol is hades.

As for why Dives was sent to the "gehenna" side of sheol and not the "Paradise" side like Lazarus (or St. Joseph of Arimathea), it wasn't because of his wealth but due to his selfish and vile deeds.

 

[ANM29]

I can certainly see where such verses would give the impression of
endless agony and/or annihilation of those who die in unbelief,
however I suppose it would depend on what is meant by
“condemned”. Does it say they are forever condemned? Or is their
condemnation temporary? I was condemned before I came to Christ
– my condemnation wasn’t an incurable state, so I have to wonder if
it's any less curable post-mortem, especially since the unbelieving
will have the distinct advantage of seeing God face-to-face at that
point. (Talk about the ultimate "Ah-hah!" moment )

I think that it can be inferred when I read God’s promise to Abraham
in Genesis 12:3 that in him (Abraham), all the families of the earth
will be blessed. I have to wonder how blessed any family would be if
they had even one loved-one suffering endless agony or annihilation.
I Timothy 4:10 calls God the Savior of all men, especially of
believers. He’s the Savior of believers especially, not exclusively.
Titus 2:11 tells us that God’s grace brings salvation to all men.
Hebrews 1:2 refers to Jesus as the heir of all things, so I find it
hard to see Satan inheriting any souls. Romans 11:32,33 says that
God is the one who locked everyone into disobedience in the first
place, for the purpose of showing everyone mercy when it’s all over.
There’s more where these came from, but you probably get the idea.






.

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hello Mathetes!

Again, thanks for writing. Among other things, you wrote: "So, hermeneutically speaking, a text can ONLY mean what it meant to the original speakers and original hearers AUTHORITATIVELY. Those to whom He was speaking were NOT pagan philosophers at Mars Hill . . . they were well known and well taught pious religious Jews. To argue a Greek mythology understanding of the text is irresponsible to hermeneutics AND historical context." (end quote).

I reply: Hermeneutically, Jesus was speaking of Greek mythology because that was exactly the paradigm He was attempting to portray to His listeners in His "Aesop's fable."

The point of Jesus mythology-based fable, was not that the rich man would literally burn in Hades, but that he would FEEL like he was burning in Hades because of the inevitable guilt and self-condemnation internally created by "stopping his ears to the cries of the poor:"
==============================================================================
Pro 14:21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy [is] he.
==============================================================================

Jesus was warning His listeners not to put themselves in a position of thinking they could somehow escape the inevitible tremendous guilt and self-condemnation produced by ignoring the terrible plight of another human being. Jesus was saying: "There is no escaping the inner 'guides' the Lord has placed within all men. Your sin will find you out, there is no getting away from yourself!" And Jesus' story is Just as timeless and relevant today as it was when Jesus told it.

Did you know that only a small percentage of people can think outside of the '''box' of literality" into abstract/allegorical/metaphorical concepts?

Man ALWAYS goes for the literal. Jesus ALWAYS goes for the spiritual.

Best Blessings.
"Arph"
--------------

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Max!

Brilliant logical post! What you may be missing here is Paul's statement that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood."

Never underestimate the very heavy influence of "the Prince of the Power of the Air." He has spent centuries, no, millenia, portraying the Lord as "the Beast that was, and is not (real), and yet is (real in people's minds)."

And all those who "buy" Satan's portrayal of God as an unapproachable, capricious, thoughtless, vengeful cruel monster, are worshipping "the Beast" without even realizing it. They don't realize that Satan, being EXTREMELY clever, has them fooled already into worshipping "the Beast." And "they have no peace day or night!"

Satan started with Eve, and he's been very successful ever since.

Satan's reason for deceiving Man about who God is, is that he desperately needs Man and God to never become good friends through Christ. Because when they do (and they will), he will be FINISHED forever.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
--------------

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hello Mathetes!

Again, thanks for writing. Among other things, you wrote: "So, hermeneutically speaking, a text can ONLY mean what it meant to the original speakers and original hearers AUTHORITATIVELY. Those to whom He was speaking were NOT pagan philosophers at Mars Hill . . . they were well known and well taught pious religious Jews. To argue a Greek mythology understanding of the text is irresponsible to hermeneutics AND historical context." (end quote).

I reply: Hermeneutically, Jesus was speaking of Greek mythology because that was exactly the paradigm He was attempting to portray to His listeners in His "Aesop's fable."

The point of Jesus mythology-based fable, was not that the rich man would literally burn in Hades, but that he would FEEL like he was burning in Hades because of the inevitable guilt and self-condemnation internally created by "stopping his ears to the cries of the poor:"
==============================================================================
Pro 14:21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy [is] he.
==============================================================================

Jesus was warning His listeners not to put themselves in a position of thinking they could somehow escape the inevitible tremendous guilt and self-condemnation produced by ignoring the terrible plight of another human being. Jesus was saying: "There is no escaping the inner 'guides' the Lord has placed within all men. Your sin will find you out, there is no getting away from yourself!" And Jesus' story is Just as timeless and relevant today as it was when Jesus told it.

Did you know that only a small percentage of people can think outside of the '''box' of literality" into abstract/allegorical/metaphorical concepts?

Man ALWAYS goes for the literal. Jesus ALWAYS goes for the spiritual.

Best Blessings.
"Arph"
--------------

Hermeneutically, Jesus was speaking of Greek mythology because that was exactly the paradigm He was attempting to portray to His listeners in His "Aesop's fable."

Show me in the text where Greek pagans are Jesus' audience.

You can't because they weren't. They were JEWISH Pharisees who DETESTED pagan philosophy.

Sorry but you cannot proof your arguement.

Jesus audience was not Greek but Jew . . . unless you can prove otherwise . . . you have no case.

The point of Jesus mythology-based fable, was not that the rich man would literally burn in Hades, but that he would FEEL like he was burning in Hades because of the inevitable guilt and self-condemnation internally created by "stopping his ears to the cries of the poor:"

Sorry, but again you cannot prove this from the text either. The point of the text is PEOPLE LISTENING to those whom God has sent. He uses the extreme of a resurrected man back from the dead telling his own brothers about the afterlife to show that men who are stuck in their rebellion are stuck even in the face of overwhelming evidence . . . the Law and the Prophets are sufficient for men to listen to.

NOWHERE is guilt or self-condemnation even HINTED at . . . and ESPECIALLY some negligent ear to the poor. He is responding to the Pharisees hypocrisy of 16:14 . . . and exposing their own lack of listening to the Law in v. 16 & 17. The whole point of the passage is

Luke 16:31
If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"


THEY DON'T LISTEN.

There is NOT ONE IOTA of evidence to point to it being a pagan myth . . . you have Jewish Pharisees (who would HATE anything Pagan ESPECIALLY the philosophers who were polytheists) and the disciples (who would have NO exposure to Gentile philosophy because 1. they were unlearned [see Acts 4 and 5] and 2. the whole Jewish culture at the time insulated itself from ANY form of godless polytheistic idolatry and any of its influences).

SO, sorry to say, you cannot prove your position, and infact, all the evidence points to quite the opposite.

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Mathetes!

So please show me that Aesop's fables are read ONLY by Greeks. The wisdom in any "Aesop's fable" (likeThe Good Samaritan) is valuable whether it's about a Jew, Iroquois indian, Japanese or Tibetan.

And believe me, if you read the context, you'll notice that Jesus wasn't feeling any too kindly toward the Pharisees at that particular moment, especially seeing they had just been heavily deriding Him. He may even have been telling "a Greek Aesop's fable" just to roil them up and thus "prep" them to pursue His crucifixion more earnestly. In His story He was also prophesieing that the Jews would generally not accept Him even if He rose from the dead. He was right!

Sort of like trying to shed enough light on scripture to convince Mathetes that God's mercy endures forever and that He "is able to save to the uttermost." "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

After all, the religious authorities in Jesus time were the ones charged with offering the sacrifice to God. And they did their appointed job using the Romans to carry it out.

BTW, the Jews HATED the Samaritans also, and especially any story that would show a Samaritan in a better light that a Jewish priest. That certainly didn't stop Jesus from telling them the "Aesop's fable" of The Good Samaritan. In fact it's a wonder that after Jesus told that story that they didn't try to crucify Him on the spot!

BTW, here are the moral lessons Jesus was trying to convey in His story about The Rich Man and Lazarus:
===========================================================================================
Pro 21:13 Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psa 41:1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] Blessed [is] he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.

Pro 14:21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy [is] he.

Pro 19:17 He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.

Pro 22:9 He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor.

Pro 28:8 He that by usury and unjust gain increaseth his substance, he shall gather it for him that will pity the poor.

Pro 28:27 He that giveth unto the poor shall not lack: but he that hideth his eyes shall have many a curse.

Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Pro 31:18-21 She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household [are] clothed with scarlet (Jesus' shed blood).. (underlines and color are my own).
===========================================================================================

And how many believers realize that Jesus was imparting such great wisdom to His listeners, rather than just talking about some unknown useless "Hell?" The Jewish people have one very wise philosophy about life, which Christians would do well to adopt: And that is to concentrate on this PRESENT life rather that dreaming about some unknown eternal problems that God will take care of anyway. I guess being God's chosen people makes that philosophy a bit easier to pursue.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
--------------

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hello PaladinValer!

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Among other things, you wrote: "The unrighteous will experience hell and the righteous will experience heaven." (end quote).

I respectfully reply: Have you ever considered the possibility that "Heaven" and "The Lake of Fire" could actually both be the same place depending on your attitude toward Jesus and toward His promised rulership of the glorious New Earth?

The place I'm thinking of is the oft-promised New Earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness," ruled forever by Jesus in peace and prosperity:
===================================================================================
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Isa 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (underlines, parentheses and color are my own).
===================================================================================

So, "Heaven" will obviously be right here on the promised New Earth. Just imagine what an intense "Hell" it will be for Satan and his followers to watch Jesus ruling the Earth forever, while he and his followers are treated as a "bloody rag," fit only to be "trodden underfeet by men!" (see Isaiah 14).

BTW, there actually is no "before Christ." This is because He was born, slain and resurrected right from the foundation of the world. In fact, ALL God's works were finished from the foundation of the world:
===================================================================================
13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the imaginary "Beast"), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (underlines, parentheses and color are my own).
===================================================================================

Very Best Blessings,
"Arph"
----------------

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hi Mathetes!

So please show me that Aesop's fables are read ONLY by Greeks. The wisdom in any "Aesop's fable" (likeThe Good Samaritan) is valuable whether it's about a Jew, Iroquois indian, Japanese or Tibetan.

And believe me, if you read the context, you'll notice that Jesus wasn't feeling any too kindly toward the Pharisees at that particular moment, especially seeing they had just been heavily deriding Him. He may even have been telling "a Greek Aesop's fable" just to roil them up and thus "prep" them to pursue His crucifixion more earnestly. In His story He was also prophesieing that the Jews would generally not accept Him even if He rose from the dead. He was right!

Sort of like trying to shed enough light on scripture to convince Mathetes that God's mercy endures forever and that He "is able to save to the uttermost." "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

After all, the religious authorities in Jesus time were the ones charged with offering the sacrifice to God. And they did their appointed job using the Romans to carry it out.

BTW, the Jews HATED the Samaritans also, and especially any story that would show a Samaritan in a better light that a Jewish priest. That certainly didn't stop Jesus from telling them the "Aesop's fable" of The Good Samaritan. In fact it's a wonder that after Jesus told that story that they didn't try to crucify Him on the spot!

BTW, here are the moral lessons Jesus was trying to convey in His story about The Rich Man and Lazarus:
===========================================================================================
Pro 21:13 Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psa 41:1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] Blessed [is] he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.

Pro 14:21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy [is] he.

Pro 19:17 He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.

Pro 22:9 He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor.

Pro 28:8 He that by usury and unjust gain increaseth his substance, he shall gather it for him that will pity the poor.

Pro 28:27 He that giveth unto the poor shall not lack: but he that hideth his eyes shall have many a curse.

Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Pro 31:18-21 She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household [are] clothed with scarlet (Jesus' shed blood).. (underlines and color are my own).
===========================================================================================

And how many believers realize that Jesus was imparting such great wisdom to His listeners, rather than just talking about some unknown useless "Hell?" The Jewish people have one very wise philosophy about life, which Christians would do well to adopt: And that is to concentrate on this PRESENT life rather that dreaming about some unknown eternal problems that God will take care of anyway. I guess being God's chosen people makes that philosophy a bit easier to pursue.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
--------------

Sounds good arph . . . but it does not hold hermeneutically.

Is there an "Abraham's Bosom" in Grecian Philosophy? NOPE. That is a strictly Jewish concept there bro. No dice.

And how many believers realize that Jesus was imparting such great wisdom to His listeners, rather than just talking about some unknown useless "Hell?" The Jewish people have one very wise philosophy about life, which Christians would do well to adopt: And that is to concentrate on this PRESENT life rather that dreaming about some unknown eternal problems that God will take care of anyway. I guess being God's chosen people makes that philosophy a bit easier to pursue.

I am not sure what you are referring to . . . but according to all the history and sources that i have studied . . . the afterlife and the eternal were GREAT issues for the 1st Cent Jew. Of the three religious streams (Pharisiac, Sadusaic, and Essenic) two of them had the eternal afterlife as PILLARS of their theological systems. Even the NT and Christianity does as well . . . it is the reward of eternity with our God wich aides us in keeping stride here . . . it is the resurrection of the dead whjch grants us hope.

Again . . . no dice.

So please show me that Aesop's fables are read ONLY by Greeks.

I don't need to . . . it is common knowledge of the detestation that the Jews had for ANYTHING that was NOT Jewish (ESP theology and philosophy). All I need to point to is the Pharisees 2nd temple conviction.

The wisdom in any "Aesop's fable" (likeThe Good Samaritan) is valuable whether it's about a Jew, Iroquois indian, Japanese or Tibetan.

Agreed . . . but you are not arguing common wisdom. You are arguing the usage of a pagan philosophical system that would be contrary to the audience which was listening to Him, FOR THE FACT THAT YOU ARE LOOKING TO UNDERCUT the passage as a legitimate source of theology about the real afterlife (talk about presuppositions!). So your assertion is moot.

Sort of like trying to shed enough light on scripture to convince Mathetes that God's mercy endures forever and that He "is able to save to the uttermost."

I believe this . . . but I do not beieve that God will force Himself upon a man who does not truly want Him. AND there are two BLATANTLY clear passages that say that some will not be saved. So God does save to the uttermost . . . and is able . . . but the scripture QUALIFIES "uttermost"

BTW, the Jews HATED the Samaritans also, and especially any story that would show a Samaritan in a better light that a Jewish priest.

not the same thing. General moral principles are quite different than tenets within a theological/philosophical system. No dice.

Pro 21:13 Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psa 41:1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] Blessed [is] he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.

Pro 14:21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy [is] he.

Pro 19:17 He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.

Pro 22:9 He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor.

Pro 28:8 He that by usury and unjust gain increaseth his substance, he shall gather it for him that will pity the poor.

Pro 28:27 He that giveth unto the poor shall not lack: but he that hideth his eyes shall have many a curse.

Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Pro 31:18-21 She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household [are] clothed with scarlet (Jesus' shed blood).. (underlines and color are my own).

Your littany of prooftexts do nothing. The meaning of the text is IN THE TEXT.

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Mathetes!

Thanks for writing. As I said much earlier in another post: Jesus' parable of "The Rich man and Lazarus" is "chock full" of theological impossibilities, thus lending great weight to the inference that Jesus' parable was an illustration of real-life, "here-and-now" spiritual truths rather than unknown eternal dynamics based solely on unscriptural Jewish folklore:
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Pro 28:27 He that giveth unto the poor shall not lack: but he that hideth his eyes shall have many a curse. (underlines and color are my own).
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BTW, let it never be said of me that I believe that the Lord will ever force salvation on anyone who has not asked for it. Neither that there exists, or ever will exist "automatic salvation." All salvation requires, at the very least, a willingness to accept it as Adam and his wife did when the accepted coats made from the skins of slain animals as a covering for themselves from the hand if the Lord.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[Emmy]

Dear Doveaman. We all can imagine how painful a Crucifixion is, and since Jesus became Man, the son of man, He knew that it would be painful. God`s Holy Law demands payment for sin, and since no human was without sin, to able to pay the debt, Jesus offered Himself to pay that debt. He was the only one without sin, and His Love for for all of us, is well-known. It was our Saviour`s BLOOD which bought our Redemption. His Blood washed all our sins away. Jesus is now with God-Father, as our Intercessor. He lived on Earth as one of us, He knows that we are capable of great love, but weak enough to fall victim to all sorts of temptation. We have to learn to become overcomers of selfishness/hardheartedness, and change into the children God wants us to be. I say this humbly and with love, Doveaman. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hi Mathetes!

Thanks for writing. As I said much earlier in another post: Jesus' parable of "The Rich man and Lazarus" is "chock full" of theological impossibilities, thus lending great weight to the inference that Jesus' parable was an illustration of real-life, "here-and-now" spiritual truths rather than unknown eternal dynamics based solely on unscriptural Jewish folklore:
=============================================================================
Pro 28:27 He that giveth unto the poor shall not lack: but he that hideth his eyes shall have many a curse. (underlines and color are my own).
=============================================================================

BTW, let it never be said of me that I believe that the Lord will ever force salvation on anyone who has not asked for it. Neither that there exists, or ever will exist "automatic salvation." All salvation requires, at the very least, a willingness to accept it as Adam and his wife did when the accepted coats made from the skins of slain animals as a covering for themselves from the hand if the Lord.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-------------

Jesus' parable of "The Rich man and Lazarus" is "chock full" of theological impossibilities, thus lending great weight to the inference that Jesus' parable was an illustration of real-life, "here-and-now" spiritual truths rather than unknown eternal dynamics based solely on unscriptural Jewish folklore:

THIS is a MUCH sounder assertion than claiming that the parable is an allusion to the current (1st Cent) streams of Greek philosophy.

I agree that it is indeed a parable . . . and His goal is NOT to teach on the realities of eternity.

BUT, there are certain elements that ARE in the text THAT ARE part of the 1st cent concepts of the afterlife.

The one factor that is NOT adressed in the text is the concept of post crucifixion believers in their tempa abode until the day of judgement. This parable entails the perspective of a PRE-crucifixion intermediate state . . . that of "Abraham's Bosom."

So I agree with you . . . this text is NOT a good text to refer to when proofing non-universalist assertions . . . it is also not a good text to refer to when proofing components of the afterlife post crucifixion for believers . . .

BUT IT IS NOT A GRECIAN PHILOSOPHICAL ALLUSION EITHER.

It is highly Jewish in its speaker, audience and content.

 

[preistsplace]

It could be that since He is an eternal God He was able to experience what eternal torment would be like. Plus, He was only paying for the sins of the elect.

You are aware that he is refered to as taking away the sin of the world.
I take the world to mean everybody IE he paid for all sin .
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

funnt it doesn't say for the elect it says for all
Blessings in Christ

 

[preistsplace]

Because nowhere in the bible does it say that anyone can come to faith after they die.

I will logically infer that you claim this because then "it would be too obvious"
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
here we have Jesus showing Thomas directly the scars so that he might believe. Are we to assume that he would not do the same for the rest of mankind?