Delaware judge: priest-penitent privilege may be unconstitutional

[Cos-play]

Your wife left the Church because she disagreed and you said that's way more open than you should be and you often show disagreement yourself so it makes one put 2 and 2 together.

"Disgreed" is probably the wrong word. "Disgusted" is probably better.

And, due deference and respect, you have had a way of reading my posts, adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 7 on a fairly regular basis.

 

[Hank77]

Although I am 100% sure this happened, the priest was wrong. It was not an excommunication offense to divorce. That was a case of the priest not understanding Canon Law under the 1917 code. This was very common in the 1950's. People could always divorce for safety and in the case of abuse a strong case could be made for annulment. The problem was even priests seemed ignorant of the Code of Canon Law. But because they were you had many priests telling people these things and people believing them. It was so bad that even now the history of this is misunderstood by Catholics.

Even if (until the 1983 Code) someone divorces and then remarried the penalty of excommunication was not automatic and other factors came into play. Since the current code of Canon Law (1983), divorced and remarried Catholics are not excommunicated as a penalty in any sense (automatic or otherwise). Although to divorce and remarry without an annulment damages the persons relationship to the Sacraments it does not excommunicate.

But I have no doubt she was told this and it is a very sad thing. And doubly sad that it too further harm to her before she was allowed to be safe, when it should have been permitted and even facilitated by the priest in the first place.

Thank you so much for clarifying this for me. The children suffered so much into adulthood and she remained unmarried. It was all very sad.

Widely understood and able to pass Constitutional muster are two different things. The article seems to indicate that the local DA is trying to convict a clergyman in the Jehovah Witnesses on the grounds that "sacramental confession" doesn't exist in the JW theology. The judge is making the point this if the clergyman is convicted on a narrow interpretation of what "sacramental confession" is, the law is likely unconstitutional

I guess I'm rather confused. There are only certain professionals who by law have to report certain crimes. If I know a child is being abused, by law, I am not obligated to report it. So no matter if this JW reported or not how would they be obligated to do so, unless they are in one of these professions where there is a lawful obligation to report?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

"Disgreed" is probably the wrong word. "Disgusted" is probably better.

And, due deference and respect, you have had a way of reading my posts, adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 7 on a fairly regular basis.

 

[stage five]

Well, according to an documentary I saw on, 60 minutes I think, Sammy The Bull Gravano, when he when to confession after entering the witness protection program confessed to 25 murders. He said his penance was to recite 1 rosary.

Then he had the unmitigated gall to defend himself and the penance as appropriate. It was really something to watch, the reporter was genuinely aghast

So, you know, he's going to heaven.

But all those couples using condoms ?

Anyway, it's stuff like this that drove my wife out of the Church. And that's way more open than I should be on this forum.

Penance isn't meant to make up for the sin. It is meant to help heal the person.

If the guy is genuinely sorry, why do you have an issue with him going to heaven? As for the couples using condoms, it is very unfortunate that the Catholic Church has decided to categorize and sort out theology to a point that it loses all meaning, mystery, flexibility, and mercy.

It is no wonder that so many wish for married priests and even bishops. Sex is important to a relationship and saying "being open to life" demands no birth control seems to be going a bit too far for many Catholics. There are plenty of couples that would welcome a child if birth control failed. They feel they are open to life while being responsible about it.

 

[Cos-play]

T
I guess I'm rather confused. There are only certain professionals who by law have to report certain crimes. If I know a child is being abused, by law, I am not obligated to report it. So no matter if this JW reported or not how would they be obligated to do so, unless they are in one of these professions where there is a lawful obligation to report?

You are confused. The article states that anyone who has knowledge of child abuse has to report the abuse. EXCEPT in cases of attorney/client privilege and sacramental confession.

 

[Cos-play]

Your ability to embed an animated GIF into a text window is truly impressive.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Your ability to embed an animated GIF into a text window is truly impressive.

I know.

 

[Cos-play]

Penance isn't meant to make up for the sin. It is meant to help heal the person.

Well that's nice but lets put this in the context of the thread:

You state:

Contrite is being sorry for what you did, that is not the same as accepting the temporal punishments of the action. Again, this deals with a spiritual concern of mercy, not the worldly concern of justice. No one is asked to face the legal justice of their actions in confession, murderers included.

Bene counters:

If I confessed murder, you know the priest would advise me to go turn myself in. The question would remain if I were sincere in being sorry. Not displaying a willingness to do what's right could easily be seen as a un contrite heart. And the priest could certainty have my penance be to turn myself in. I mean what penance would suit murder? How many hail Mary's and our father's cover murder?

Cos make a point:

Well, according to an documentary I saw on, 60 minutes I think, Sammy The Bull Gravano, when he when to confession after entering the witness protection program confessed to 25 murders. He said his penance was to recite 1 rosary.

Then he had the unmitigated gall to defend himself and the penance as appropriate. It was really something to watch, the reporter was genuinely aghast

So, you know, he's going to heaven.

But all those couples using condoms ?

Anyway, it's stuff like this that drove my wife out of the Church. And that's way more open than I should be on this forum.

And the point is that this mercy sakes murdering mobster gets out of both temporal and spiritual punishment basically by not having enough integrity to actually honor the oath he took when he was made into the mob and ratted everyone out for a deal and THEN got a deal from 25 murders too.

...but a married couple who only want to comfort each other can't even do that without having to make daily moral decisions about having intercourse without getting pregnant.

And if you don't think that the seemingly fundamental injustice of that isn't effecting people, well, then your just not getting it and I can't help you on the subject.

 

[keith99]

Just a question: If a child came to a priest to confess and "confessed" that they were doing wrong by being sexually abused by an adult, would that also be something the priest couldn't reveal since the child wasn't actually committing a sin? Or could the priest tell the child that they should tell their parents or authorities? Or even call the authorities and ask them to talk to the child but not reveal details?

The citation of cannon law that Tall Guy provided said the priest cannot betray the penitent. In the case you describe the abusers are not the penitent and it can even be argued that silence is betrayal.

 

[stage five]

Well that's nice but lets put this in the context of the thread:

This isn't about the context of this thread. This is about penance. Penance does not make up for sin.

You state:


Bene counters:

She's wrong on that.

And the point is that this mercy sakes murdering mobster gets out of both temporal and spiritual punishment basically by not having enough integrity to actually honor the oath he took when he was made into the mob....

What he did in the world isn't relevant to his confession, absolution, and penance. What matters is the interior, only.

...but a married couple who only want to comfort each other can't even do that without having to make daily moral decisions about having intercourse without getting pregnant.

And if you don't think that the seemingly fundamental injustice of that isn't effecting people, well, then your just not getting it and I can't help you on the subject.

I don't think that's an injustice nor do I think the two are related.

If a person murders, feels sorry for it, and does penance to heal himself, then Heaven is his. That's a completely separate matter from a couple that continually engage in what they consider sinful and do so willfully.

The issue is between one who commits a sin and repents, and those that commit an act and do not repent. What do you wish to compare, a person that murders in his youth and lives a life of piety versus a man that lives a life stealing without violence? One is repentant, the other is not. The severity of the sin is not as important as the contrition.

The real question at stake seems to be taking things as sins that we don't really consider them to be. Some people get to a point they stop taking the men in pointy hats seriously. They realize the bible is art, not a book of commands and literal truths. They discover the north of their moral compass is not found in doctrine, but in shared life experiences.

 

[stage five]

The citation of cannon law that Tall Guy provided said the priest cannot betray the penitent. In the case you describe the abusers are not the penitent and it can even be argued that silence is betrayal.

They can't reveal what was said in confession, that is betrayal. It is not up to the priest to decide whether or not violating the seal is good for the person. That is up for the person to decide on their own.

 

[Rhamiel]

well this thread is taking some weird tangents

 

[stage five]

howso?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

JWs don't have clergy nor do they have it sealed. Those elders blab to anyone

Priest-penitent privilege doesn't say that clergy can't blab to anybody they want to. That is a matter of professional ethics, and every religious organization has their own standards regarding that. It merely says that what the penitent says is inadmissable in court.

 

[Rhamiel]

howso?

talking about condoms? just struck me as kind of odd
I saw how the topic came up
but still, it is just kind of weird

 

[stage five]

talking about condoms? just struck me as kind of odd
I saw how the topic came up
but still, it is just kind of weird

I can understand how people have a hard time with the idea of a church condemning a loving couple for using condoms while granting absolution and subscribing a penance of one rosary to a mass murderer.

(I find it all silly)

 

[Rhamiel]

I can understand how people have a hard time with the idea of a church condemning a loving couple for using condoms while granting absolution and subscribing a penance of one rosary to a mass murderer.

(I find it all silly)

yeah, it just kind of seems like a cop out

like anything compared to multiple murders seems petty

"well all this guy did was get drunk, this other guy killed 24 people!"

but that is not really the topic of this thread

 

[stage five]

yeah, it just kind of seems like a cop out

like anything compared to multiple murders seems petty

"well all this guy did was get drunk, this other guy killed 24 people!"

but that is not really the topic of this thread

It's all MORTAL SIN!!!

 

[Rhamiel]

yeah, it is mortal sin
but if you repent of your sins
you can die and go to heaven

that is why confession needs to have an absolute seal on it
if people avoided confession because they were worried their secrets being repeated
that would be such a shame

 

[benedictaoo]

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