Delaware judge: priest-penitent privilege may be unconstitutional

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It is all pointless really. Someone would have to point out that they told a priest and the priest said nothing. Then someone would have to decide to go after the priest. A DA could make a big deal about it and do it for political reasons. Many would take it as pure persecution for exercising the tenets of one's faith by silence.
 
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Hank77

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A person is not excommunicated for divorcing an abusive husband.
I personally knew a woman and her adult children who requested that the church allow her to divorce her very abusive husband. They said no and if she did she would be excommunicated. At that time all of her six children were under the age of thirteen. It wasn't until he fractured her skull and she almost died that they gave permission but only with the stipulation that she would never remarry.
This happened in the 1950's so maybe things have changed since then.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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It is all pointless really. Someone would have to point out that they told a priest and the priest said nothing. Then someone would have to decide to go after the priest. A DA could make a big deal about it and do it for political reasons. Many would take it as pure persecution for exercising the tenets of one's faith by silence.

Here in Canada, DAs (Crown Attorneys) are not elected; neither are corners or Sheriffs. It's good to be Canadian.:oldthumbsup:
 
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Here in Canada, DAs (Crown Attorneys) are not elected; neither are corners or Sheriffs. It's good to be Canadian.:oldthumbsup:

I like having officials being held accountable to the people. An unelected official can pursue a political agenda of their own or from the one that appointed them.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I personally knew a woman and her adult children who requested that the church allow her to divorce her very abusive husband. They said no and if she did she would be excommunicated. At that time all of her six children were under the age of thirteen. It wasn't until he fractured her skull and she almost died that they gave permission but only with the stipulation that she would never remarry.
This happened in the 1950's so maybe things have changed since then.

I find your story strange. Perhaps true, but strange. While it very well COULD be a sin to seek out a divorce, depending on the situation, excommunication is reserved for something scandalous like marrying again while still considered married by the Church. Perhaps the pastor who supplied this advice simply took Mark 10 and Luke 16 absolutely literally without considering the need to separate due to violence. As far as I know that has been allowed all along.

In general, and in every case I have heard of, violence is a reason to separate, and if civil divorce is needed for further protection a civil divorce is advised. That does not mean the person is not considered still bound in marriage, but there might be some reason the marriage never really was.Thus an annulment might be possible, allowing for the option to marry again. But in general separation and civil divorce do not actually end a marriage in the eyes of the Church.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Just so everyone's up to date... Catholic adoption agencies need to adopt to same-sex couples. Catholic colleges and charities need to provide insurance coverage for contraception. Catholic hospitals need to perform emergency abortions. Catholic priests need to break the seal of confession. These are things that are either already real or are being discussed. When a notion about public good is in conflict with a religious protection, it's no longer the impulse in US law to err on the side of religious protections.
Your post is exactly why "Like" needs to just be "+1".
 
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Davidnic

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I personally knew a woman and her adult children who requested that the church allow her to divorce her very abusive husband. They said no and if she did she would be excommunicated. At that time all of her six children were under the age of thirteen. It wasn't until he fractured her skull and she almost died that they gave permission but only with the stipulation that she would never remarry.
This happened in the 1950's so maybe things have changed since then.

Although I am 100% sure this happened, the priest was wrong. It was not an excommunication offense to divorce. That was a case of the priest not understanding Canon Law under the 1917 code. This was very common in the 1950's. People could always divorce for safety and in the case of abuse a strong case could be made for annulment. The problem was even priests seemed ignorant of the Code of Canon Law. But because they were you had many priests telling people these things and people believing them. It was so bad that even now the history of this is misunderstood by Catholics.

Even if (until the 1983 Code) someone divorces and then remarried the penalty of excommunication was not automatic and other factors came into play. Since the current code of Canon Law (1983), divorced and remarried Catholics are not excommunicated as a penalty in any sense (automatic or otherwise). Although to divorce and remarry without an annulment damages the persons relationship to the Sacraments it does not excommunicate.

But I have no doubt she was told this and it is a very sad thing. And doubly sad that it too further harm to her before she was allowed to be safe, when it should have been permitted and even facilitated by the priest in the first place.
 
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benedictaoo

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I personally knew a woman and her adult children who requested that the church allow her to divorce her very abusive husband. They said no and if she did she would be excommunicated. At that time all of her six children were under the age of thirteen. It wasn't until he fractured her skull and she almost died that they gave permission but only with the stipulation that she would never remarry.
This happened in the 1950's so maybe things have changed since then.
I've heard all kinds of stories too. We can't help it if there are bad priest ill advising people.I have my own experience where I can't believe what I was hearing from priests.
 
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tz620q

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I've heard all kinds of stories too. We can't help it if there are bad priest ill advising people.I have my own experience where I can't believe what I was hearing from priests.
I suppose that some of the time the person getting the bad advice might keep it to themselves and therefore no one would be able to try to correct the priest. But I think a women getting abused would seek further counsel if a priest gave such terrible advice. The person that hears of such a thing should do what David says, check the Canon law or other sources to make sure of the Church's position, then check into what the appropriate way to approach this issue should be. I think in the 50's one of the problems we had was the priest on a pedestal (you could extend this to a lot of professions) view. Authority was seen as irreproachable and so in instances where correction should have been pursued, things just kept rolling along.

I've heard similar stories and have seen people who knew of the situation from hearing from the abused person that have taken it upon themselves to talk to the priest directly and tried to counsel the priest on a better course of advice.
 
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Cos-play

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Guys can we calm down here.

Take a deep breath. Read the article.

The problem, from the judges standpoint is NOT that the seal of the confessional is unconstitutional but rather that the law is badly written and seems to apply only to Catholics. Which means that it is favoring one religion over another. Which might be considered unconstitutional.

The judge isn't trying to break the seal of the confessional, he's seem to think that it should be extended to ALL clergy of all religions or none at all.

Which seems reasonable in a country where the practice of all religions is equally allowed.

Geez. Why is it everybody's assumption that they're being repressed ?
 
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Cos-play

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If I confessed murder, you know the priest would advise me to go turn myself in. The question would remain if I were sincere in being sorry. Not displaying a willingness to do what's right could easily be seen as a un contrite heart. And the priest could certainty have my penance be to turn myself in. I mean what penance would suit murder? How many hail Mary's and our father's cover murder?

Well, according to an documentary I saw on, 60 minutes I think, Sammy The Bull Gravano, when he when to confession after entering the witness protection program confessed to 25 murders. He said his penance was to recite 1 rosary.

Then he had the unmitigated gall to defend himself and the penance as appropriate. It was really something to watch, the reporter was genuinely aghast

So, you know, he's going to heaven.

But all those couples using condoms ?

Anyway, it's stuff like this that drove my wife out of the Church. And that's way more open than I should be on this forum.
 
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Davidnic

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Yeah it seems the issue with the law isn't thatl a religious ceremony is kept private, it is that only one religious ceremony is kept private with no stipulation that similar ones can be as well. In a pluralistic society a law like that is poorly written.
 
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chevyontheriver

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The judge isn't trying to break the seal of the confessional, he's seem to think that it should be extended to ALL clergy of all religions or none at all.
My understanding is that this has already been widely understood to apply to Lutherans and Baptists and any other religion, covering the content of all individual counseling done by a pastor.
 
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Cos-play

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My understanding is that this has already been widely understood to apply to Lutherans and Baptists and any other religion, covering the content of all individual counseling done by a pastor.

Widely understood and able to pass Constitutional muster are two different things. The article seems to indicate that the local DA is trying to convict a clergyman in the Jehovah Witnesses on the grounds that "sacramental confession" doesn't exist in the JW theology. The judge is making the point this if the clergyman is convicted on a narrow interpretation of what "sacramental confession" is, the law is likely unconstitutional
 
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benedictaoo

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Well, according to an documentary I saw on, 60 minutes I think, Sammy The Bull Gravano, when he when to confession after entering the witness protection program confessed to 25 murders. He said his penance was to recite 1 rosary.

Then he had the unmitigated gall to defend himself and the penance as appropriate. It was really something to watch, the reporter was genuinely aghast

So, you know, he's going to heaven.

But all those couples using condoms ?

Anyway, it's stuff like this that drove my wife out of the Church. And that's way more open than I should be on this forum.
That's something.
 
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benedictaoo

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Widely understood and able to pass Constitutional muster are two different things. The article seems to indicate that the local DA is trying to convict a clergyman in the Jehovah Witnesses on the grounds that "sacramental confession" doesn't exist in the JW theology. The judge is making the point this if the clergyman is convicted on a narrow interpretation of what "sacramental confession" is, the law is likely unconstitutional
JWs don't have clergy nor do they have it sealed. Those elders blab to anyone
 
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Cos-play

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JWs don't have clergy nor do they have it sealed. Those elders blab to anyone

Due respect that's a rather chauvinistic view of the world. I don't think you can ask for a religious exception for your faith and not expect that a similar exception be given to others.

From a legal standpoint the law couldn't care less that the confessional is sealed what they care about is that a person should have privacy and security when seek advice on matters spiritual. There are places and people who you talk to where absolute piracy is guaranteed.

That's the reasoning of the law and it should apply to everyone equally.

At least that's this judges view and I think it's correct
 
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Sword of the Lord

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Well, according to an documentary I saw on, 60 minutes I think, Sammy The Bull Gravano, when he when to confession after entering the witness protection program confessed to 25 murders. He said his penance was to recite 1 rosary.

Then he had the unmitigated gall to defend himself and the penance as appropriate. It was really something to watch, the reporter was genuinely aghast

So, you know, he's going to heaven.

But all those couples using condoms ?

Anyway, it's stuff like this that drove my wife out of the Church. And that's way more open than I should be on this forum.
Why? Would you view this as giving you away as well?
 
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Sword of the Lord

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....huh .... ?
Your wife left the Church because she disagreed and you said that's way more open than you should be and you often show disagreement yourself so it makes one put 2 and 2 together.
 
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