Delaware judge: priest-penitent privilege may be unconstitutional

Tallguy88

We shall see the King when he comes!
Supporter
Jan 13, 2009
32,459
7,737
Parts Unknown
✟240,396.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Delaware judge: priest-penitent privilege may be unconstitutional

A Delaware superior court judge has questioned the constitutionality of a state law that protects the secrecy of sacramental confession.

State law mandates the reporting of suspected child abuse except in cases covered by the attorney-client privilege and conversations “between priest and penitent in sacramental confession.”

Ruling in a case involving the failure of elders of the Jehovah’s Witnesses to report child abuse, Judge Mary M. Johnston said that if “priest,” “penitent,” and “sacramental confession” are interpreted narrowly, then the law is unconstitutional because its “effect would be to advance certain religions over others.”

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=27395
 

pdudgeon

Traditional Catholic
Supporter
In Memory Of
Aug 4, 2005
37,777
12,353
South East Virginia, US
✟493,233.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0

Tallguy88

We shall see the King when he comes!
Supporter
Jan 13, 2009
32,459
7,737
Parts Unknown
✟240,396.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Here's what Canon Law says

“The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.” (Canon Law # 983. §1)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rhamiel
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Things are absolutely ridiculous at the point.
Why so? That privileged communication is not just protected in the RCC; it could apply to confession between a congregational leader and any member of his/her congregation regardless of faith community. That would be the wide reading of the law as referenced in the article.

To interpret it narrowly, only groups that have priests (RCC, Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopal and Jewish) would be covered. That WOULD be unconstitutional.
However, in Judaism, the priests (Kohenim) are rarely congregational leaders.

The law here in Maryland covers all congregational leaders, but the "penitent" must be a member of the leader's congregation.
 
Upvote 0

Tallguy88

We shall see the King when he comes!
Supporter
Jan 13, 2009
32,459
7,737
Parts Unknown
✟240,396.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
From Catholic Answers:

Confession exists so that anyone, if he genuinely repents, can be forgiven of his sins no matter how heinous they may be. If the Church is accused of hiding abusers because of this narrow confidentiality privilege, then we can say that law firms are guilty of hiding abusers when they don’t turn in every client suspected of past abuse who confides in an attorney.

As Catholics, we aren’t asking for a sweeping exemption so that everything ever said to a priest is “off the record.” We are just asking for, oh, I don’t know, a wall of separation between Church and State. Specifically, a wall made up of the dark enamel of the confessional that lets us make “personal decisions” between ourselves, our priest, and our God without government interference.

If a man can be granted secrecy with his legal counsel so that he can protect his freedom, then that same man should be granted secrecy with his religious counsel so that he can protect his very soul.

Bolding mine.

http://www.catholic.com/blog/trent-horn/priests-should-not-be-forced-to-break-the-seal-of-confession
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rhamiel
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Just a question: If a child came to a priest to confess and "confessed" that they were doing wrong by being sexually abused by an adult, would that also be something the priest couldn't reveal since the child wasn't actually committing a sin? Or could the priest tell the child that they should tell their parents or authorities? Or even call the authorities and ask them to talk to the child but not reveal details?
 
Upvote 0

Tallguy88

We shall see the King when he comes!
Supporter
Jan 13, 2009
32,459
7,737
Parts Unknown
✟240,396.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Just a question: If a child came to a priest to confess and "confessed" that they were doing wrong by being sexually abused by an adult, would that also be something the priest couldn't reveal since the child wasn't actually committing a sin? Or could the priest tell the child that they should tell their parents or authorities? Or even call the authorities and ask them to talk to the child but not reveal details?
I believe the priest can suggest someone tell the authorities something said in confession, but cannot make it a requirement to receive absolution.

But no, the priest can't even hint at what was said in confession.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rhamiel
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Why so? That privileged communication is not just protected in the RCC; it could apply to confession between a congregational leader and any member of his/her congregation regardless of faith community. That would be the wide reading of the law as referenced in the article.

To interpret it narrowly, only groups that have priests (RCC, Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopal and Jewish) would be covered. That WOULD be unconstitutional.
However, in Judaism, the priests (Kohenim) are rarely congregational leaders.

The law here in Maryland covers all congregational leaders, but the "penitent" must be a member of the leader's congregation.

Wouldn't make sense for Jewish priests. We don't have anything like confession and it's likely if someone approached a rabbi about abusing a child, the rabbi would call the police.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
I believe the priest can suggest someone tell the authorities something said in confession, but cannot make it a requirement to receive absolution.

I mean it in a situation where a child believes they are doing something wrong by being abused, not the abuser confessing. Often in cases a child believes they are in the wrong because the adult is telling them that they are. Sadly, in these cases the abuse can go on for years without the child feeling that they can tell anybody because they have been told they will get in trouble.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Wouldn't make sense for Jewish priests. We don't have anything like confession and it's likely if someone approached a rabbi about abusing a child, the rabbi would call the police.
Yes. In most cases that is true. But I know of a few Kohenim that are also rabbis.
 
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Yes. In most cases that is true. But I know of a few Kohenim that are also rabbis.

There is no confession nor any idea within Judaism that conversations between a rabbi and a member of his (or her for liberal Judaism) congregation are not allowed to be discussed with someone else. That was my point.
 
Upvote 0

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
To make it clear, I believe this is a ruling designed to go after one specific religion which I view as wrong. It's why I stated that it doesn't apply to Judaism. I think it would be good if priests would direct those who confess to abuse to turn themselves into authorities or take some action to assist the child and perhaps that is or should be a rule the Church puts out, but I don't think we should force the religion to break one of their strongly held beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There is no confession nor any idea within Judaism that conversations between a rabbi and a member of his (or her for liberal Judaism) congregation are not allowed to be discussed with someone else. That was my point.
OK - understood.

My previous rabbi was also a licensed family counselor, and he explained how Maryland's rules were. Not every synagogue has that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoAmmi

Dispassionate
Mar 12, 2012
26,944
9,715
✟209,533.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
OK - understood.

My previous rabbi was also a licensed family counselor, and he explained how Maryland's rules were. Not every synagogue has that.
Maryland? I'm from there.

Yeah, there might be state laws governing such conversations, but there isn't a standing rule in Judaism about it unlike Catholicism which is a key point in this case. It seems like it is targeting them and I think it's a dangerous precedent.
 
Upvote 0

grandvizier1006

Seeking a life that honors God.
Supporter
Dec 2, 2014
5,976
2,599
28
MS
✟663,518.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I think an exception to the priest-patient privilege can be made for child sexual abuse. The only problem would be if the child victim was not abused and simply claimed it. Let's face it, sometimes people will lie about things like that, and if you're a priest you are only able to take that person's word for it. But that's another issue.
 
Upvote 0

Tallguy88

We shall see the King when he comes!
Supporter
Jan 13, 2009
32,459
7,737
Parts Unknown
✟240,396.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I mean it in a situation where a child believes they are doing something wrong by being abused, not the abuser confessing. Often in cases a child believes they are in the wrong because the adult is telling them that they are. Sadly, in these cases the abuse can go on for years without the child feeling that they can tell anybody because they have been told they will get in trouble.
If the child tells the priest in Confession, then he cannot say. If the child tells him outside of confession, then I believe he can report it. I have heard of priests asking people in confession to tell them something again outside of confession as a workaround.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tiny Bible

All Lives Matter. Pray BLM Learn That.
Jan 3, 2016
1,182
559
whyaskthat
✟19,244.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
The seal of the confessional is a cornerstone of a sacrament in the Catholic Church. Priests have been martyred rather than violate the seal.
And countless children for generations have been sexually abused and scarred for life because of that seal and the pervert priests responsible for their assaults.
 
Upvote 0