Daniel 12:1

[ewq1938]

Read Daniel 12:1 again:
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

Who are Daniel's people ewq1938?

Christians made up of people of all races. The NT reveals this where the OT does not.

Look at that text again and answer who Jesus was talking to. Answer who, what, when, and where please.

If that is true why didn't the see the second coming as promised?

So Christ didn't come in judgement of Jerusalem?

No. The Roman's came in judgement.

Can you prove that from scripture? Can you prove Jesus is telling them something they would never see happen?

As I said, the second coming is part of what the generation would see. I've said many times people that believe as you do never will address this.

*Peter was crucified upside down (as history records). Peter also said his death was at hand in 1 Peter 1:14

*James was put to death in Acts 12:2

*Andrew was killed in 70 AD (according to most accounts), Foxe's Book of Martyrs

*John (once again), tells you he was in the tribulation in Revelation 1:9

Has nothing to do with any of the olivet discourse. And John never says he is in "the tribulation" spoken in the discourse. You are altering what John wrote.

*What does Jesus mean when he tells Pilate "my kingdom IS NOT of this world"?

That it hasn't arrived on Earth yet. It doesn't until the 7th trump when it is written all kingdoms become the kingdoms of Christ.

*What does Jesus mean in Matthew 26:64? Why did Caiaphas tear his clothes when Jesus told him that?

*What does Paul mean in Colossians 1:15-20?

Paste the scriptures if you want a comment on them. I don't have time to look up every one.

*Why does Hebrews 1 prove you are wrong by telling you Christ position "when He made purification from sin" on the cross? (Hebrews 1:1-4)

That doesn't prove me wrong. We aren't even discussing such a topic. Red herrings are also argumentative fallacies. Stick to the subject please.

Jesus told you in Matthew 28:18 what His position is NOW...it's not an "argument from silence" it's an argument from factual evidence of scripture!

Wrong.

Once again you don't take into account what Peter, James, Andrew, and John asked.

Again, why no second coming where angels gathered together the elect?

I am amillennial. I look for Jesus to return just as Matthew 25 states. I don't look to be raptured before an imaginary "great tribulation".

We aren't discussing pre-trib which is a false doctrine. The tribulation is not imaginary since Christ and Rev 11 and 13 describe it and just as Christ says in the discourse, the trib ends with the second coming found in Rev 11.

It's you who are ignorant of what Jesus meant when He said "you shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky in power and great glory".

They didn't see that so who exactly is ignorant on this subject? You force the second coming at a time it didn't happen.

This is what Christ said "this generation" would see:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

None of that happened to the generation of people in Ad 70.

 

[ebedmelech]

Christians made up of people of all races. The NT reveals this where the OT does not.

Indeed the OT does! Gentiles became Jews many many times and God told Israel they were to be treated as one born in the land. He told them that clearly in Exodus 12:43-49.

If that is true why didn't the see the second coming as promised?

You simply don't understand Christ coming in judgment upon a nation, as compared to Christ coming as the judge of the world.

No. The Roman's came in judgement.

Indeed they did...just as when God used Babylon to judge Judah using Nebuchadnezzar.

As I said, the second coming is part of what the generation would see. I've said many times people that believe as you do never will address this.

That's because I understand the generation was that generation of Israel Jesus was speaking to. You seem to think it doesn't when every time Jesus said "this generation" it was those He spoke to...but all of a sudden when He says it in the Olivet Discourse did it change? I think not!

Has nothing to do with any of the olivet discourse. And John never says he is in "the tribulation" spoken in the discourse. You are altering what John wrote.

John was there when Jesus spoke the Olivet Discourse. Your ignoring of the fact that Revelation is a fuller prophecy of the Olivet Discourse is not going to change it. Jesus alluded to the fact that John would be alive when He came in judgement in John 21:20-23...so there John is writing Revelation, saying "the time is at hand" as he write what he was told to the seven Churches as Jesus said. It falls right in line with the great distress of Daniel 12:1.

That it hasn't arrived on Earth yet. It doesn't until the 7th trump when it is written all kingdoms become the kingdoms of Christ.

The seventh trumpet...Revelation 11:15-19 is John revealing that Christ reign started upon His resurrection. That you cant see that is your issue.

Paste the scriptures if you want a comment on them. I don't have time to look up every one.

So that is your issue...not mine. Perhaps when you do have time, you may see the error of what you believe.

That doesn't prove me wrong. We aren't even discussing such a topic. Red herrings are also argumentative fallacies. Stick to the subject please.

There's no "red herring"...you brought up Daniel 12...that you can't understand Daniel 12 is the reason you think it's not the subject. Who were all those who were resurrected when Christ died on the cross that went with Him upon His ascension as Matthew 27:50-53 records!

Wrong.

So you don't believe Jesus has all power in heaven AND on earth as He clearly says?

Again, why no second coming where angels gathered together the elect?

Jesus is still gathering His elect and will until all of the elect have been received. Notice the absence of Christ judging the world as He says in Matthew 25. You see you're not considering the text in light of what it says. That is Christ saving out of ALL NATIONS a people for His name!

We aren't discussing pre-trib which is a false doctrine. The tribulation is not imaginary since Christ and Rev 11 and 13 describe it and just as Christ says in the discourse, the trib ends with the second coming found in Rev 11.

Revelation 11 is after the cross. After the cross the temple is all believers, we are the temple, and that is the temple being measured. That you can't relate what this is saying is the error of your understanding. However, that really isn't related to Daniel 12.

They didn't see that so who exactly is ignorant on this subject? You force the second coming at a time it didn't happen.

This is what Christ said "this generation" would see:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

None of that happened to the generation of people in Ad 70.

Your error looms large. This very language of Matthew 24:29 is taken from Isaiah 13:6-16 as God judges Babylon who dominated the world at that time. He used that language for the disciples to understand this was Jerusalem/Israel's judgement which you don't see. Jesus said His coming WAS A SIGN right there in verse 30. I would think you know the difference between His coming as a SIGN as said there, and His PHYSICAL coming as the judge of all in Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[BABerean2]

The seventh trumpet...Revelation 11:15-19 is John revealing that Christ reign started upon His resurrection. That you cant see that is your issue.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

How do you fit the time of the judgment of all the dead into a past event?

.

 

[ebedmelech]

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The connection...Psalm 2. This is messianic! Please note all the "and" conjunctions...it spans the entire reign in a snapshot. If you read it in a vacuum, you will miss what's going on. This is a heavenly vision...so when did Christ's reign begin? Upon His resurrection...which is where the temple of God IN HEAVEN is opened because Jesus has conquered sin and death!

 

[BABerean2]

The connection...Psalm 2. This is messianic! Please note all the "and" conjunctions...it spans the entire reign in a snapshot. If you read it in a vacuum, you will miss what's going on. This is a heavenly vision...so when did Christ's reign begin? Upon His resurrection...which is where the temple of God IN HEAVEN is opened because Jesus has conquered sin and death!

Are you saying the passage from Revelation 11 is not connected to the John 5 passage?
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[ebedmelech]

Are you saying the passage from Revelation 11 is not connected to the John 5 passage?
.

No. I'm saying the passage spans the reign of Christ...from resurrection to judgement. You narrowed in on one part of the passage. Read Revelation 11:15-18 as what it is, a heavenly worship, along with an announcement that Christ reigns, and what will happen in that reign.

The passage is SOLIDLY tied to Psalm 2!

 

[BABerean2]

No. I'm saying the passage spans the reign of Christ...from resurrection to judgement. You narrowed in on one part of the passage. Read Revelation 11:15-18 as what it is, a heavenly worship, along with an announcement that Christ reigns, and what will happen in that reign.

The passage is SOLIDLY tied to Psalm 2!

Do you think the 7th angel has already sounded?
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[Another Lazarus]

Israel 3rd temple is the clue of end times tribulation period.
it shall be built used by false Messiah/antichrist

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

 

[ebedmelech]

Do you think the 7th angel has already sounded?
.

Absolutely! The seventh trumpet begins the pouring out of the seven bowls (or vials) which I believe begins Christ judgement of Jerusalem.

Take a look at seals and the trumpets in light of Matthew 24.

 

[BABerean2]

Absolutely! The seventh trumpet begins the pouring out of the seven bowls (or vials) which I believe begins Christ judgement of Jerusalem.

Take a look at seals and the trumpets in light of Matthew 24.

Do you believe those events are in any way related to the last trumpet found in 1st Corinthians chapter 15?


1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[ebedmelech]

Do you believe those events are in any way related to the last trumpet found in 1st Corinthians chapter 15?


1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

No I don't. When Paul speaks of the "last trump" the The Feast of Trumpets *should* come to mind because it called all Israel together and was followed by The Day of Atonement.

This very different from the seven trumpet judgements of Revelation. The last trumpet ofound the seven initiates the seven bowls being poured out.

 

[BABerean2]

No I don't. When Paul speaks of the "last trump" the The Feast of Trumpets *should* come to mind because it called all Israel together and was followed by The Day of Atonement.

This very different from the seven trumpet judgements of Revelation. The last trumpet ofound the seven initiates the seven bowls being poured out.

The Apostle Paul did not seem to have a high opinion of celebrating the Jewish feasts in the text below...


Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.



Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Did Paul make any reference to the "Feast of Trumpets" in any of his writings?

In Galatians chapter 4 Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage and says we are to cast out the Sinai covenant.
.

 

[ebedmelech]

The Apostle Paul did not seem to have a high opinion of celebrating the Jewish feasts in the text below...


Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.



Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Did Paul make any reference to the "Feast of Trumpets" in any of his writings?

In Galatians chapter 4 Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage and says we are to cast out the Sinai covenant.
.

You're missing the point. Paul understands what the Feast of Trumpets looked forward to to BAB2. I'm not saying Paul celebrated the feast by mentioning the "last trump"...he understands what it pointed to...OUR ULTIMATE atonement!

The Feast of Trumpets was followed immediately by The Day of Atonement...Leviticus 23:23-32.

 

[BABerean2]

You're missing the point. Paul understands what the Feast of Trumpets looked forward to to BAB2. I'm not saying Paul celebrated the feast by mentioning the "last trump"...he understands what it pointed to...OUR ULTIMATE atonement!

The Feast of Trumpets was followed immediately by The Day of Atonement...Leviticus 23:23-32.

We also have passages which indicate a future judgment of the dead.


2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (He judges those alive and dead at His appearing.)


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Are all of these passages connected by the resurrection and of the judgment?

.

 

[ebedmelech]

We also have passages which indicate a future judgment of the dead.


2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (He judges those alive and dead at His appearing.)


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Are all of these passages connected by the resurrection and of the judgment?

.

BAB2...please go back and read my posts #224 and #226 Where am I not agreeing with Revelation 11:15-19???

Do you wish me to show you how I understand the passage?

 

[BABerean2]

Do you wish me to show you how I understand the passage?

I did reread it.

I am a little thick-headed sometimes.

I read it as an event that occurs at the future Second Coming of Christ.

I am just trying to understand your perspective. So, yes. Please show me your understanding.

.

 

[ebedmelech]

I did reread it.

I am a little thick-headed sometimes.

I read it as an event that occurs at the future Second Coming of Christ.

I am just trying to understand your perspective. So, yes. Please show me your understanding.

.

The passage is declaring Christ reign from the resurrection, to judgement to come at the end. It's that simple.

Notice the declaration of Revelation 11:18
18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

This is the point of Psalm 2. Jesus is reigning because God has given Him the reign (Matthew 28:18), and...as is said in 1 Corinthians 15:25:
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

I'm not in disagreement with any of your points. My point is that you cannot break Revelation 11:15-19 up because it's it's both a declaration as well as a prophecy that covers the entire reign of Christ.

 

[BABerean2]

The passage is declaring Christ reign from the resurrection, to judgement to come at the end. It's that simple.

Notice the declaration of Revelation 11:18
18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

This is the point of Psalm 2. Jesus is reigning because God has given Him the reign (Matthew 28:18), and...as is said in 1 Corinthians 15:25:
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

I'm not in disagreement with any of your points. My point is that you cannot break Revelation 11:15-19 up because it's it's both a declaration as well as a prophecy that covers the entire reign of Christ.

Thanks,

I guess the thing that threw me is my belief that the 7th trumpet of Revelation chapter 11 is the "last trumpet" of 1st Corinthians chapter 15, which also seems tied to Revelation 10:7.

It is my belief that all of these are a part of the future Second Coming of Christ.

I know we are on the same team, but may not always agree on all points.

If you put two Christians in a room, you will usually end up with at least three opinions on some matters...

.

 

[ebedmelech]

Thanks,

I guess the thing that threw me is my belief that the 7th trumpet of Revelation chapter 11 is the "last trumpet" of 1st Corinthians chapter 15, which also seems tied to Revelation 10:7.

It is my belief that all of these are a part of the future Second Coming of Christ.

I know we are on the same team, but may not always agree on all points.

If you put two Christians in a room, you will usually end up with at least three opinions on some matters...

.

Understood BAB2. Notice Revelation 12 also shows the reign as Christ is caught up to His throne at Revelation 12:5.

 

[ivebeenshown]

The connection...Psalm 2. This is messianic! Please note all the "and" conjunctions...it spans the entire reign in a snapshot. If you read it in a vacuum, you will miss what's going on. This is a heavenly vision...so when did Christ's reign begin? Upon His resurrection...which is where the temple of God IN HEAVEN is opened because Jesus has conquered sin and death!

Marvelous exposition. As Paul said, "he has quickened us together with him", and as Jesus said, "I am set down with my Father in his throne."